Another minor error I noticed: Eos Dei's Crushing Loneliness doesn't list a save to avoid the effect, but the last sentence reads, "Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this granted ability again for 1 day." Not sure if there was supposed to be a save (I would presume a Will save if so), or if the first part of the sentence was a reference to an older version which offered a save?
Its supposed to allow a Will save to negate the effects. [Fixed.]
For Anajira's Skirmisher's Pounce, I don't see why you require the capstone to utilize Vital Strike as written. Unlike Spring Attack, which specifies an attack action, which is why Vital Strike doesn't work with it, Skirmisher's Pounce allows a standard action, which Vital Strike is. The Capstone Empowerment, on the other hand, refers to it as an "attack" (but there are non-attacks you could use with your standard action). Does the capstone refer to a previous version of Skirmisher's Pounce which acted like Spring Attack? If so, I might suggest the capstone grant the option to either utilize a standard action or combine a full attack with movement?
Good catch. Revision:
"Capstone Empowerment: Your movement during skirmisher’s pounce doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity."
I believe this has already been mentioned, but Fey Baraddu's Physical Sign and Personality Influence are both identical to Catha of Codex's...to the point of even mentioning Catha of Codex's name.
Fixed.
For Gulguthriana, "Capstone Empowerment:" isn't bolded and italicized.
Fixed.
For Hexus' Legend, it reads, "This is never more true then when spells come to bare against one another on a massive scale," which I believe should be "bear". Unless we're talking some sort of spell orgy...which, considering it occasionally produces living spells doesn't seem to be entirely out of the question, but I suspect it is not as intended.
Fixed.
For Hexus' capstone empowerment, it reads, "You may use possess animal to possess a corpse of an animal or humanoid," and possess animal should be italicized as a granted ability.
For Kandisha's Protection of Kandisha, it reads, "except the benefits only apply against male creatures of the following types are affected, regardless of alignment: humanoid, monstrous humanoid, outsider." Should be either, "except the benefits only apply against male creatures of the following types, regardless of alignment" or "except only male creatures of the following types are affected, regardless of alignment".
Both have been fixed.
For Kandisha's Vestigial Bond, it lists the sand elemental as being from Bestiary 2, but the quasielementals from Bestiary 2 are ice, lightning, magma, and mud, not sand. The closest thing to a sand elemental is the sandman, which does have the elemental subtype, or perhaps simply an earth elemental flavored as being made of sand?
I could have sworn there was a sand elemental in that book. Its been altered to an earth elemental. Sadly, I don't have enough room to fluff it as being made of sand.
For Night Fang's legend, it reads, "Under the light of the full moon, the hag made love with her captive as her loins consumed his genitals," but since there were four of them, I believe it should be either "with her captives" or "with each captive".
I completely rewrote this legend.
For Prime Ravager's Duck and Cover, it reads "After succeeding on a Reflex save, you move 5 feet as an immediate action." Does this mean you are obligated to move, or can you choose to remain in your current location if you desire?
You should have the choice to move or not. [Fixed.]
For Prime Ravager's Mental Acuity, might I suggest rephrasing "add your Charisma bonus (if any) on Will saves that you make as an insight bonus" as "add your Charisma bonus (if any) as an insight bonus on Will saves"?
Fixed.
For Prime Ravager's Physical Sign, it reads, "With salt growths that resemble the seals of every spirit that you have ever made a pact with cover your body." Was that intended to be "White salt growths"? If not, I believe the 'with' should be removed.
For Prime Ravager's Personality Influence, it reads, "You must be constantly partaking in the finest food and drink." As written, this means any time you aren't eating the finest food or drinking the finest drink, you are going against his influence...if this is intended, this seems harsh, since it would seem to preclude any other actions.
First fixed, second was supposed to be a VERY minor influence. It has been changed to the following:
"Personality Influence: You cuss and rage at anyone who questions your genius, appearance, or social etiquette. All food and drink that you partake in must be of the highest quality."
For Prime Ravager's Vestigial Boon, it says that the salt growth can be broken, but doesn't state what the hardness is or how many hit points it has for it to be broken. On the other hand, it says 'instead of a gem', so would this reference rules for Ravager Spirits, where the appropriate hardness and hit points would be referenced? If so, I might still consider clarifying that the salt growth has the same hardness and number of hit points as a ravager spirit's gem (soul gem?).
I don't think that this is necessary because magic jar doesn't list any hardness or hit points for its reciprocal either.
For Son of Dobb's Vestigial Boon, I feel like it's not worth taking for a once per day ability, even if it could potentially save someone's ass. Perhaps after its use, it can't be used again for another hour to prevent it from use multiple times in the same encounter, or perhaps it could have additional uses at higher levels; say, an extra use at 11th, 15th, and 19th? Or at 13th and 18th?
It is better than quickened breath of life (quickened breath of life is a swift action; this is an immediate action). Quickened breath of life is a 9th-level spell. Son of Dobb is a 4th-level spirit. So while I respectfully disagree with you, I'm buffing it to make it a little bit better at high levels.
"Once per day, when a creature within 100 feet of you that you can see dies, you may cast breath of life on the target as an immediate action. If the healing caused by this ability is enough to spare the target from death, it is immediately teleported to a safe location within 1 mile of your choice, functioning as greater teleport. A creature that accepts this healing must also accept the teleportation effect. At 9th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 13th level, you can use this ability three times per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This ability replaces either stone step or twice-blessed, chosen randomly."
For Swan Elashni's Heartfelt Haze, it reads, "You buffet one target within 30 feet with love as a standard action, causing it to become dazed for 4 rounds and its attitude towards you improves by one step, as if you had succeeded on a successful Diplomacy check." How long does the attitude improvement last? I presume not just for the 4 rounds, since the target being dazed would prevent an improved attitude from being useful in any way (barring them being immune to being dazed, but not to mind-affecting effects), but is it a permanent improvement, or does it last for the duration of your pact with Swan Elashni?
It says, "as a successful Diplomacy check." The Core Rulebook says, "Any attitude shift caused through Diplomacy generally lasts for 1d4 hours but can last much longer or shorter depending upon the situation (GM discretion)."
Edit: Also, are you considering adding anything from Unchained at all to this? For example, if the DM is using the Unchained eidolon, if you bind Loh'Moi, what eidolon type would be used, if any? Also, an occultist option for variant multiclassing could be interesting to toss into the Esoterica section?
Unchained is all about house rules, so its up to the GM.
I wouldn't mind an occultist option for variant multiclassing, but it all comes down to space now. That might have to wait until the next book.
Hrm, that does need a bit of a change. Its not supposed to require any components that are 1 gp or less.My apologies for not quoting the section that caused the confusion. Thanks for covering me on that, bookrat!
However, with >1gp material components required some abilities will need to be exempted or wording changed. Some examples are below, and only cover simulacrum spells.
- Moy's companion, which mentions simulacrum.
- Circe's Runes, Mirror, has lesser simulacrum. (This may be intended but the rune's major loses a lot of power, as the lesser simulacrum ends when the pact with Circe's Runes ends.)
- Omlan Atlan, Dopplespell, which functions as lesser simulacrum.
- Evening Star, companion, which functions as simulacrum.I understand the reasoning behind the change to spell-like abilities and how they function, but a general rule may be overkill where a few specific rulings, like twisted wish, would be better.
Would you like me to go through the "functions as" or spell-like abilities and see which ones have expensive material components and list them? This could help determine the best solution to the problem.
That's an easy fix:
"A granted ability that functions as a spell with a material component doesn’t require those material components to use it unless the ability is a minor granted ability; minor granted abilities that function as spell-like abilities require all material components listed by those spells that cost more than 1 gp unless the minor granted ability notes otherwise. "
This removes the issues with all of the granted abilities that you've listed save for circe's runes, which I'm perfectly okay with. If you'd like, you can go through each spirit and find all of the granted abilities that require material components in excess of 1 gp to determine if this rule fits well.
For Arth's Legend, it reads, "Finally, Arthu sired a son, abet an illegitimate one, to a powerful enchantress." I presume it should be "albeit"?
For Arthu's Vestigial Bond, it reads, "You gain a faerie dragonb3 as a familiar, functioning as an Improved Familiar. You possess a wizard level equal to your binder level when determining your raven’s abilities." One of those is incorrect, and I hope it's the raven.
For Beautiful Balr's Capstone Empowerment, it reads, "You can use spurn harm while you are dazed, stunned, or paralyzed." Spurn harm should be italicized.
For Green Glomairah's Capstone Empowerment, it refers to her major granted ability as negativity ward, while the actual ability is labeled Ward Against Harm.
For Green Glomairah's Speak With Plants ability, speak with plants isn't italicized.
For Green Glomairah's Tree Stride ability, tree stride isn't italicized.
For Green Glomairah's Vestigial Bond, it also refers to her major granted ability as negativity ward, while the actual ability is labeled Ward Against Harm.
For Noble Marius' Read Psychic Residue, is there any way to control which events you see? As written, it's just any major event that qualifies, and there doesn't seem to be anything preventing you from getting the same one repeatedly...though I suppose that's appropriate for what's essentially a DM exposition ability.
For Pavatu's Vestigial Bond...the text is in two different font sizes, and in the first sentence, it says you get an air elemental, while in the second sentence, it says you get a cat.
For the Legend of Rattenkönig, it reads, “It is with most
high expectations that I invite you, the finest my dynasty has t ooffer," which I believe should be "to offer".For Vodavox's Phrenic Blast, it says it's a mind-affecting ability, which should be called a mind-affecting effect.
All fixed.
Psychic residue has been updated to the following:
"Read Psychic Residue: While you are bound to Noble Marius, you can spend 10 minutes meditating in order to create a temporal sensor at a specific point in time within the past 100 years, otherwise functioning as clairaudience/clairvoyance. The chance for the temporal sensor to be placed at the correct point in time is 70% + 1% per caster level, to a maximum of 90%. If the die roll fails, the sensor shows you information at a different, random point in time instead; you know this ability failed unless specific magic yielding false information is at work This sensor is rooted at your precise location when you use this ability. You watch all events at the chosen time and place occur in real time. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. Additionally, for every 2 levels beyond 11th that you possess, increase the number of years in the past that your temporal sensor can view by 100, to a maximum of 600 years ago."
As a result of the change, I altered Noble Marius's favored enemy to be "Any (evil incorporeal creatures)," in fitting with his loathing of the evil spirit that possessed him.
Bwuhahahahaha! Fully caught up! I ... AM ... IRON MAN!
For those curious, I've decided that A) I am going to update the spirit-touched template, which includes taking it, the ravager vessel template, the carnival animal template, and the autrok ergon familiar and sticking them into their own, special section under esoteria.
Greensprout Rapscallion: The AC Bonus says that it increases according to the table, but this bonus is not listed on the table.
Updated:
"AC Bonus: A greensprout rapscallion is able to use his childlike charms and small size in order to make it more difficult to strike him in combat. When unarmored and unencumbered, te greensprout rapscallion adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his AC and CMD. In addition, the greensprout rapscallion gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level, increasing to +2 at 8th level. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the greensprout rapscallion is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears armor or carries a heavy shield or tower shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load."
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I liked the "Occult Weapon replaces the vestigial companion," idea, so I went ahead and make that change. Here's the text below; will someone let me know if this interacts oddly with any of the shadow-based binder secrets?
"Benefit: After sealing a pact with a spirit, an occultist with this secret can choose to trade one of a spirit’s granted abilities for the benefits of this binder secret instead of the vestigial bond normally available to that spirit. This granted ability is the same one(s) that the chosen spirit trades for its vestigial bond ability. The benefits of occult weapon are considered that spirit’s vestigial bond ability for all purposes, and the occultist cannot gain the benefits of another vestigial bond ability while benefiting from this binder secret.
Instead of binding a spirit onto her soul, an occultist with this secret can bind it into a weapon as part of a ritual. She may select any manufactured weapon or her body in this manner; if she chooses to bind the spirit to her body, this secret’s benefits apply to all of her natural weapons and unarmed strikes. While wielding the weapon, the occultist can use the bound spirit’s major granted ability as if the spirit were bound to her soul and the selected weapon is empowered with occult energy, granting it a +1 enhancement bonus for 24 hours. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5.
Additionally, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: conductiveAPG, corrosiveAPG, corrosive burstAPG, dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, returning, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the spirit is bound to the weapon and cannot be changed until the next time the occultist uses this binder secret. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the occultist. Once the occultist has chosen how to allocate this bonus, it cannot be changed until the pact ends.
An occultist can only enhance one weapon in this way at a time, and she cannot enhance multiple weapons similtaneously. If the spirit bound to her weapon has multiple major granted abilities, she must choose one to gain when the ritual is performed. The spirit bound within the occult weapon counts against the total number of spirits that she can bind to her soul at once."
Also, the vestigial protection binder secret had its "binder level 11th" prerequisite removed, so there's another 1st-level secret for you guys to play with. ;-)
While wielding the weapon, the occultist can use the bound spirit’s major granted ability as if the spirit were bound to her soul...
If the spirit bound to her weapon has multiple major granted abilities, she must choose one to gain when the ritual is performed. The spirit bound within the occult weapon counts against the total number of spirits that she can bind to her soul at once.
Since this is now treated as a Vestigial Bond I don't think the above is necessary anymore.
I like the new secret a lot more, and trading the Vestigial Bond for a more powerful weapon gives even more versatility to binders.
Also, the vestigial protection binder secret had its "binder level 11th" prerequisite removed, so there's another 1st-level secret for you guys to play with. ;-)
Excellent! Having more sub-5 secrets is great as some of my builds have been stretching to get a secret (not including those in Occult Options #1).
While wielding the weapon, the occultist can use the bound spirit’s major granted ability as if the spirit were bound to her soul...
If the spirit bound to her weapon has multiple major granted abilities, she must choose one to gain when the ritual is performed. The spirit bound within the occult weapon counts against the total number of spirits that she can bind to her soul at once.
Since this is now treated as a Vestigial Bond I don't think the above is necessary anymore.
I like the new secret a lot more, and trading the Vestigial Bond for a more powerful weapon gives even more versatility to binders.
Also, the vestigial protection binder secret had its "binder level 11th" prerequisite removed, so there's another 1st-level secret for you guys to play with. ;-)Excellent! Having more sub-5 secrets is great as some of my builds have been stretching to get a secret (not including those in Occult Options #1).
I agree with Orich, that seems a bit too limited now. I love the idea of giving up the vestigial bond for it though, it works quite well with the concept. It makes the gish-occultist a more viable option as well.
Bwuhahahahaha! Fully caught up! I ... AM ... IRON MAN!
For those curious, I've decided that A) I am going to update the spirit-touched template, which includes taking it, the ravager vessel template, the carnival animal template, and the autrok ergon familiar and sticking them into their own, special section under esoteria.
Did you catch my correction of one of your updates? here
Regarding binder secrets--if possible, I'd like to revisit adding two more from Occult Options #1:
Bountiful Abilites: Add 3 to the number of uses per day of any minor ability with limited uses per day.
Extend Reserve: Add binder level to the number of minutes your reserve spirit is available--this increases it to 2 minutes / binder level.
I understand not adding all of the secrets in Occult Options #1 to the Grimoire, but having read Occult Options #1 multiple times, the above two stand out as good additions for the Grimoire for the following reasons:
- Bountiful Abilities is a binder secret an Occultist can take at 1st or 2nd level.
- Bountiful Abilities is equally useful for a multi-spirit binder and a single-spirit binder. It also helps off-set the 3+Cha/day penalty for non-Cha binding classes, providing they have access to secrets.
- Extend Reserve is the only modification to Reserve Spirit I have seen and enhances the ability greatly.
- Both secrets are applicable to a wide-variety of pact magic builds, not just casters, gish, or utility.
Provided available space, of course.
Question. Since occult weapon says it only lasts for 24 hours, does that mean it would shut down part way through if an occultist used flexible pactmaking to extend the pact past the initial 24 hours? If so, would you then gain access to the boon / companion that took the abilities place? Or would you at least gain the ability back?
Also. Still hoping for Pact Effigy to be made available for 1st level... :)
new occult weapon binder secret.
I like this version much more. I like that it grants the minor abilities, so it doesn't make as much of a sacrifice as the previous version did.
I agree with Orich that some of it can be removed; this will hep with page space for later on. By condensing this version, you can add more content later. :)
Question. Since occult weapon says it only lasts for 24 hours, does that mean it would shut down part way through if an occultist used flexible pactmaking to extend the pact past the initial 24 hours? If so, would you then gain access to the boon / companion that took the abilities place? Or would you at least gain the ability back?
Also. Still hoping for Pact Effigy to be made available for 1st level... :)
Explain to me why I should make it available to 1st-level occultists. (Anyone may try to aid you. :-P)
Regarding binder secrets--if possible, I'd like to revisit adding two more from Occult Options #1:
Bountiful Abilites: Add 3 to the number of uses per day of any minor ability with limited uses per day.
Extend Reserve: Add binder level to the number of minutes your reserve spirit is available--this increases it to 2 minutes / binder level.
I understand not adding all of the secrets in Occult Options #1 to the Grimoire, but having read Occult Options #1 multiple times, the above two stand out as good additions for the Grimoire for the following reasons:
Provided available space, of course.- Bountiful Abilities is a binder secret an Occultist can take at 1st or 2nd level.
- Bountiful Abilities is equally useful for a multi-spirit binder and a single-spirit binder. It also helps off-set the 3+Cha/day penalty for non-Cha binding classes, providing they have access to secrets.
- Extend Reserve is the only modification to Reserve Spirit I have seen and enhances the ability greatly.
- Both secrets are applicable to a wide-variety of pact magic builds, not just casters, gish, or utility.
Convince me why I should port over these binder secrets. (Anyone may try to aid you. ;-P)
new occult weapon binder secret.I like this version much more. I like that it grants the minor abilities, so it doesn't make as much of a sacrifice as the previous version did.
I agree with Orich that some of it can be removed; this will hep with page space for later on. By condensing this version, you can add more content later. :)
This is the updated version:
"Benefit: After sealing a pact with a spirit, an occultist with this secret can choose to trade one of a spirit’s granted abilities for the benefits of this binder secret instead of the vestigial bond normally available to that spirit. This granted ability is the same one(s) that the chosen spirit trades for its vestigial bond ability. The benefits of occult weapon are considered that spirit’s vestigial bond ability for all purposes, and the occultist cannot gain the benefits of another vestigial bond ability while benefiting from this binder secret.
As a swift action, the occultist grants one weapon that she is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. She can select a natural weapon or her unarmed strikes with this ability. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. This bonus is added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: conductiveAPG, corrosiveAPG, corrosive burstAPG, dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, returning, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the spirit is bound to the weapon and cannot be changed until the next time the occultist uses this binder secret. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the occultist. Once the occultist has chosen how to allocate this bonus, it lasts for the duration of her pact with the spirit and cannot be changed.
An occultist can only enhance one weapon in this way at a time, and she cannot enhance multiple weapons simultaneously."
Explain to me why I should make it available to 1st-level occultists. (Anyone may try to aid you. :-P)Question. Since occult weapon says it only lasts for 24 hours, does that mean it would shut down part way through if an occultist used flexible pactmaking to extend the pact past the initial 24 hours? If so, would you then gain access to the boon / companion that took the abilities place? Or would you at least gain the ability back?
Also. Still hoping for Pact Effigy to be made available for 1st level... :)
I'm not sure about 1st level, but I think 2nd level would be good. Allows binders to make potions at the earliest level. I'm not sure how many scrolls a binder would make if they got the ability at 1st.
Edit: additionally, it makes it so a binder who wants to focus on crafting not have to compete with the good 5th level secrets for when it would normally come online. I'm not sure the choice of "craft items or wait until 8th level to get a good secret" should be a choice. It's pretty harsh.
Explain to me why I should make it available to 1st-level occultists. (Anyone may try to aid you. :-P)Question. Since occult weapon says it only lasts for 24 hours, does that mean it would shut down part way through if an occultist used flexible pactmaking to extend the pact past the initial 24 hours? If so, would you then gain access to the boon / companion that took the abilities place? Or would you at least gain the ability back?
Also. Still hoping for Pact Effigy to be made available for 1st level... :)
I'm not sure about 1st level, but I think 2nd level would be good. Allows binders to make potions at the earliest level. I'm not sure how many scrolls a binder would make if they got the ability at 1st.
Edit: additionally, it makes it so a binder who wants to focus on crafting not have to compete with the good 5th level secrets for when it would normally come online. I'm not sure the choice of "craft items or wait until 8th level to get a good secret" should be a choice. It's pretty harsh.
They can make zero scrolls and zero potions. You can't create scrolls, wands, or potions unless you have prepared spells to expend in their creation. Unlike with magic arms and armor or wondrous items, spell requirements aren't optional for spell trigger and spell activation items. As a result, altering this secret wouldn't be an improvement for the occultist, it would be an improvement for the various spellcasting classes that can gain binder secrets, which is why I don't want to change it.
Explain to me why I should make it available to 1st-level occultists. (Anyone may try to aid you. :-P)
Well. To me, Pact Effigy is already a feat tax and restricting it and therefore a feat such as Craft Wondrous Item, you're having to wait 2 levels more than every caster in the game. But for what reason? One still has to actually gain the feat, pay gold when using the feat, and obtain DM permissions for the item if its custom (sometimes even if its not). Also, with it being restricted to lv 5, it makes the option less useful if you're in a group with any caster, as if they had the choice of getting the feat (in this case Craft Wondrous, often viewed as the best) at 3rd or wait for you to get it 2 levels later, I feel they'd get it at 3rd. Which is fine, but honestly the party really only "needs" one magic item crafter unless said item crafter refuses to make items for the party or tries to get extra money off of them.
That said, as Bookrat suggests, I think it being available at 2nd would be fine as well. It'd require more than a 1 lv. dip to gain access to the ability to craft.
EDIT: Not to mention 5th level seems to already be where all the other "juicy" secrets are for early builds IMO, so one less at 5th seems like it wouldn't hurt.
Explain to me why I should make it available to 1st-level occultists. (Anyone may try to aid you. :-P)Well. To me, Pact Effigy is already a feat tax and restricting it and therefore a feat such as Craft Wondrous Item, you're having to wait 2 levels more than every caster in the game. But for what reason? One still has to actually gain the feat, pay gold when using the feat, and obtain DM permissions for the item if its custom (sometimes even if its not). Also, with it being restricted to lv 5, it makes the option less useful if you're in a group with any caster, as if they had the choice of getting the feat (in this case Craft Wondrous, often viewed as the best) at 3rd or wait for you to get it 2 levels later, I feel they'd get it at 3rd. Which is fine, but honestly the party really only "needs" one magic item crafter unless said item crafter refuses to make items for the party or tries to get extra money off of them.
That said, as Bookrat suggests, I think it being available at 2nd would be fine as well. It'd require more than a 1 lv. dip to gain access to the ability to craft.
Pact Effigy isn't a feat, so its not a feat tax.
You have to wait 2 more levels than every caster in the game because you're not a caster, and you gain a character feat at the level that you could select it, so you can grab Pact Effigy and Craft Wondrous Item at the same time, where a martial with Master Craftsman has to wait two more levels to do so.
I would argue that a spellcaster SHOULD have faster access to crafting feats; they're the intended audience for those feats and the occultist is basically dabbling in their specialization. Plus crafting is already EXTREMELY powerful when allowed, and having two characters who can craft effectively means that you can craft twice as much stuff at the same time. (Been there, done that. ;-P)
They can make zero scrolls and zero potions. You can't create scrolls, wands, or potions unless you have prepared spells to expend in their creation. Unlike with magic arms and armor or wondrous items, spell requirements aren't optional for spell trigger and spell activation items. As a result, altering this secret wouldn't be an improvement for the occultist, it would be an improvement for the various spellcasting classes that can gain binder secrets, which is why I don't want to change it.Explain to me why I should make it available to 1st-level occultists. (Anyone may try to aid you. :-P)Question. Since occult weapon says it only lasts for 24 hours, does that mean it would shut down part way through if an occultist used flexible pactmaking to extend the pact past the initial 24 hours? If so, would you then gain access to the boon / companion that took the abilities place? Or would you at least gain the ability back?
Also. Still hoping for Pact Effigy to be made available for 1st level... :)
I'm not sure about 1st level, but I think 2nd level would be good. Allows binders to make potions at the earliest level. I'm not sure how many scrolls a binder would make if they got the ability at 1st.
Edit: additionally, it makes it so a binder who wants to focus on crafting not have to compete with the good 5th level secrets for when it would normally come online. I'm not sure the choice of "craft items or wait until 8th level to get a good secret" should be a choice. It's pretty harsh.
Fair enough.
Edit: I don't like your second argument (the one against Third Mind), but I think this argument against me is good. An argument against two characters having craft is not a good argument; most parties could have two crafters as there are typically two casters in the party. Most people who would play a binder are the type of people who would otherwise play a caster, so I feel that a binder is essentially replacing a caster in the group. An argument against two crafters for the reasons given becomes weak because of this.
However, an argument based on when crafting becomes online for a binder (essentially 5th) is a good argument for keeping the secret at 5th level. I do not believe that it overcomes the argument in favor of character flexibility in terms of having to choose between becoming a crafter at 5th or 8th and then having to sacrifice the good secrets at one of those levels; it's much easier to sacrifice the lower level secrets than the mid level ones. Hence: 2nd level requirement. But I also feel that your argument quoted here is on equal footing, so it's a fair decision.
Pact Effigy isn't a feat, so its not a feat tax.
I suppose I meant that it requires you to expend a resource just to be able to use another resource. So just a tax or "secret tax", more than a feat tax.
I would argue that a spellcaster SHOULD have faster access to crafting feats; they're the intended audience for those feats and the occultist is basically dabbling in their specialization. Plus crafting is already EXTREMELY powerful when allowed, and having two characters who can craft effectively means that you can craft twice as much stuff at the same time. (Been there, done that. ;-P)
I would argue that if the party is so gung-ho on dual crafting, they'd ignore the occultist entirely then and just go caster or caster with an occultist archetype if they want a bit of spirit access, so placing the 5th level restriction on crafting magic items just means people are less likely to bother with it since 1 or more casters may have already picked it up.
One of the reasons my occultist picked it up was because my DM doesn't allow his players to know what other players are making. Had I the foreknowledge that a caster was taking craft wondrous, I wouldn't bother getting Effigy + Craft Wondrous, as versatility is a very big thing and the feat reserve spirit and secrets such as inquiry, bouncing major, empower major exist.
That said, if easy access for casters is the true concern, what if it were made like some of the style feats in that the actual occultist class gets slightly earlier access to it before anyone else?
That said, if easy access for casters is the true concern, what if it were made like some of the style feats in that the actual occultist class gets slightly earlier access to it before anyone else?
Right now, only the occultist can get it. The requirement is a level 5 occultist. So none of the archetypes can gain this secret as they are not occultists.
I believe the argument isn't that other classes could somehow use this secret to gain their crafting feats earlier, but rather other classes get it at a certain level and occultists should not get it at that same level (ie they should be weaker in this ability).
I believe the argument isn't that other classes could somehow use this secret to gain their crafting feats earlier, but rather other classes get it at a certain level and occultists should not get it at that same level (ie they should be weaker in this ability).
An interesting argument. Personally I don't think making it available earlier to an occultist would be a swaying point for most players trying to decide between a caster or an occultist. However, I suppose based on flavor alone, it could be somewhat understandable. It's true they aren't casters, but they are closer to being a caster than martials are.
Convince me why I should port over these binder secrets. (Anyone may try to aid you. ;-P)
Bountiful Abilities:
- Non-Cha pact magic classes can take this to offset their lack of Cha bonus- Cha pact magic classes can take this to make them more of a "caster"
- In addition to an Occultist's spirits' minors, this also affects constellation aspects, making them a stronger feature and more likely to be chosen
- Encourages use of limited abilities rather than squirreling them away
- Is similar to Extra Rage, Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Performance, etc. and so fits thematically with the other Paizo feats
Extend Reserve:
- Increases the effectiveness of Reserve Spirit and so encourages its use in multiple binding builds
- Is another candidate for a 5th-level binder secret (with the adjustment to Reserve Spirit's prerequisites) and is focused on utility, not just altering a major ability
- More time that Reserve Spirit can be used increases its appeal for binders
Hopefully some of the others will help me make this argument as well. :)
For the Pact Effigy discussion, we could just meet in the middle and make Pact Effigy have a level requirement of 3 instead of the current 5.
For the Pact Effigy discussion, we could just meet in the middle and make Pact Effigy have a level requirement of 3 instead of the current 5.
You get a binder secret at levels 1, 2, 5, 8..., making it level 3 is effectively no different than 5. I originally proposed level 3 and edited my post when I looked up the progression.
Bountiful Abilities:
- Non-Cha pact magic classes can take this to offset their lack of Cha bonus
- Cha pact magic classes can take this to make them more of a "caster"
- In addition to an Occultist's spirits' minors, this also affects constellation aspects, making them a stronger feature and more likely to be chosen
- Encourages use of limited abilities rather than squirreling them away
- Is similar to Extra Rage, Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Performance, etc. and so fits thematically with the other Paizo feats
While i have the Occult Options #1 and therefore don't mind if its not in the Grimoire, I think the first two points you make here are pretty solid on their own. I'm contemplating taking it with my occultist as well, so to me, it's solid all around.
Extend Reserve:
- Increases the effectiveness of Reserve Spirit and so encourages its use in multiple binding builds
- Is another candidate for a 5th-level binder secret (with the adjustment to Reserve Spirit's prerequisites) and is focused on utility, not just altering a major ability
- More time that Reserve Spirit can be used increases its appeal for binders
Not sure I'd put another candidate for 5th level secret as an upside. 5th seems where most of the solid early secrets reside as it is. That said, this is a feat that, had I gone with a different build, I'd have considered taking along with Reserve Spirit at 5th. Probably wouldn't. Not at 5th at least, but it does make me consider. It does make Reserve Spirit more tempting to take.
For the Pact Effigy discussion, we could just meet in the middle and make Pact Effigy have a level requirement of 3 instead of the current 5.
In order to be able to actually obtain it at 3rd lv., one would have to take Extra Secret, and would still need to get craft wondrous and such at 5th and after. So, it doesn't seem to change much except the need to spend a feat to get it at the level it becomes available.... as Bookrat said.
That said, if easy access for casters is the true concern, what if it were made like some of the style feats in that the actual occultist class gets slightly earlier access to it before anyone else?Right now, only the occultist can get it. The requirement is a level 5 occultist. So none of the archetypes can gain this secret as they are not occultists.
I believe the argument isn't that other classes could somehow use this secret to gain their crafting feats earlier, but rather other classes get it at a certain level and occultists should not get it at that same level (ie they should be weaker in this ability).
A number of the classes that gain binder secrets do as as "an occultist of their level," meaning they can pick up pact effigy if they want to.
Pact Effigy isn't a feat, so its not a feat tax.I suppose I meant that it requires you to expend a resource just to be able to use another resource. So just a tax or "secret tax", more than a feat tax.
I would argue that a spellcaster SHOULD have faster access to crafting feats; they're the intended audience for those feats and the occultist is basically dabbling in their specialization. Plus crafting is already EXTREMELY powerful when allowed, and having two characters who can craft effectively means that you can craft twice as much stuff at the same time. (Been there, done that. ;-P)I would argue that if the party is so gung-ho on dual crafting, they'd ignore the occultist entirely then and just go caster or caster with an occultist archetype if they want a bit of spirit access, so placing the 5th level restriction on crafting magic items just means people are less likely to bother with it since 1 or more casters may have already picked it up.
One of the reasons my occultist picked it up was because my DM doesn't allow his players to know what other players are making. Had I the foreknowledge that a caster was taking craft wondrous, I wouldn't bother getting Effigy + Craft Wondrous, as versatility is a very big thing and the feat reserve spirit and secrets such as inquiry, bouncing major, empower major exist.
That said, if easy access for casters is the true concern, what if it were made like some of the style feats in that the actual occultist class gets slightly earlier access to it before anyone else?
Again, I would argue that having two people that can craft isn't a waste, especially when your group is crunched on time. (You both can craft, after all.) Being able to jump into crafting is a big benefit, plus the secret is modeled after the Master Craftsman feat, which also requires a 5th level character to take it. (It has a prerequisite of 5 ranks in a Craft skill.)
So in all, the reasons that I don't feel it needs changing are:
A) The occultist shouldn't have a fast track to crafting.
B) Having it earlier doesn't benefit the occultist, unless there's some esoteric ruling that I don't know about that allows them to use their spell-like abilities to craft potions and scrolls and the like.
C) The binder secret is modeled after an existing feat, and a good enough reason hasn't been presented to make me want to break that precedent.
Ultimately, I'm closing the book on this one; Pact Effigy is going to stay where it is.
Ultimately, I'm closing the book on this one; Pact Effigy is going to stay where it is.
You made some good points concerning the feat and so I'm happy with this ruling.
In the grand scheme of things having it delayed until 5th isn't a huge deal--as long as I get to craft all my occult items I'm happy.
Bountiful Abilities:
- Non-Cha pact magic classes can take this to offset their lack of Cha bonus
- Cha pact magic classes can take this to make them more of a "caster"
- In addition to an Occultist's spirits' minors, this also affects constellation aspects, making them a stronger feature and more likely to be chosen
- Encourages use of limited abilities rather than squirreling them away
- Is similar to Extra Rage, Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Performance, etc. and so fits thematically with the other Paizo featsExtend Reserve:
- Increases the effectiveness of Reserve Spirit and so encourages its use in multiple binding builds
- Is another candidate for a 5th-level binder secret (with the adjustment to Reserve Spirit's prerequisites) and is focused on utility, not just altering a major ability
- More time that Reserve Spirit can be used increases its appeal for bindersHopefully some of the others will help me make this argument as well. :)
If I had to choose only one of these secrets to be added it would be Bountiful Abilities, due to its universal appeal to any binder.
I do really enjoy Extend Reserve and would like to see it added as well, but not every binder is going to take Reserve Spirit; however, every binder is going to have minor abilities, which Bountiful Abilities applies to.
A number of the classes that gain binder secrets do as as "an occultist of their level," meaning they can pick up pact effigy if they want to.That said, if easy access for casters is the true concern, what if it were made like some of the style feats in that the actual occultist class gets slightly earlier access to it before anyone else?Right now, only the occultist can get it. The requirement is a level 5 occultist. So none of the archetypes can gain this secret as they are not occultists.
I believe the argument isn't that other classes could somehow use this secret to gain their crafting feats earlier, but rather other classes get it at a certain level and occultists should not get it at that same level (ie they should be weaker in this ability).
The only archetypes who receive a binder secret "as an occultist of their level" are spell casters who would already be able to qualify for the item creation feats. Specifically, the arcanist, shaman, witch, wizard, and warpriest. They do not need the secret to be able to craft magic items.
Other archetypes get their archetype classes stacking with any occultist level for purposes of qualifying for feats, but this doesn't make their level an effective occultist level, so it wouldn't help them qualify for the secret. If you meant for this to happen, then those archetypes need some clarification.
That's an easy fix:
"A granted ability that functions as a spell with a material component doesn’t require those material components to use it unless the ability is a minor granted ability; minor granted abilities that function as spell-like abilities require all material components listed by those spells that cost more than 1 gp unless the minor granted ability notes otherwise. "
This removes the issues with all of the granted abilities that you've listed save for circe's runes, which I'm perfectly okay with. If you'd like, you can go through each spirit and find all of the granted abilities that require material components in excess of 1 gp to determine if this rule fits well.
Vestigial Boons states the following:
A vestigial boon augments the binder, his allies, or both. A vestigial boon functions as any other granted ability.
Does the Vestigial Boon count as a minor ability? This would allow it to be affected by Bountiful Abilities and would require material components, unless it becomes an exception.
Ultimately, I'm closing the book on this one; Pact Effigy is going to stay where it is.You made some good points concerning the feat and so I'm happy with this ruling.
In the grand scheme of things having it delayed until 5th isn't a huge deal--as long as I get to craft all my occult items I'm happy.
For me, the decision to request for an earlier level went as follows:
Do I want one of the good level 5+ secrets or do I want to craft? Am I willing to sacrifice one of those good secrets? Is the ability to then take crafting feats worth it? No. It is not. I cannot envision a way where I will ever think it's worth it.
However, I would be willing to sacrifice a lower level secret, so if it came online when I could pick my level 1 or 2 secret, then I would consider it.
B) Having it earlier doesn't benefit the occultist, unless there's some esoteric ruling that I don't know about that allows them to use their spell-like abilities to craft potions and scrolls and the like.
Edit: my previous version of this was wrong (described how a magic item could be created with another person casting the spell; this is not true). New correction:
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect.
2nd correction: turns out you can have another person involved and able to cast the spell. It doesn't have to be the person making the item:
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
This means that a binder with the brew potion feat could make potions provided that she either has a scroll with use magic device, the appropriate spell-like ability, or another caster to cast the spell.
Ultimately, I'm closing the book on this one; Pact Effigy is going to stay where it is.
Disappointing and a bummer, but, C'est la vie I guess. :/
Do I want one of the good level 5+ secrets or do I want to craft? Am I willing to sacrifice one of those good secrets? Is the ability to then take crafting feats worth it? No. It is not. I cannot envision a way where I will ever think it's worth it.
This is about where I was really. It does benefit an occultist if it can be gotten early because if they wanted to craft, then they could nab the Effigy early, get a craft feat later, and have the options for 5th lv. feats and secrets. Which, to me it seems at least, 5th (maybe 4th) level is already when the occultist really comes on line, hitting its stride so to speak. So I don't see 5th needing even more in that area. But that's just me.
In any case. Onward, upward and forward.
Was Ubro ever looked at after Dexion's playtest findings? Something about only being able to heal his party once using Ubro at lv. 5 I think it was. I know it was at 3+CHA a day, and that was found to be too much, but once seems the polar opposite. What if it were just CHA a day?
Also, I'll bring it back up, since the Occult Weapon only lasts for 24 hrs., what happens if one makes an expanded pact that lasts longer than 24 hrs while using the Occult Weapon in place of the vestigial bond? Do you just get your minor ability back? Or is it locked away in an alternate plane of unhappiness?
Bountiful Abilities:
- Non-Cha pact magic classes can take this to offset their lack of Cha bonus
- Cha pact magic classes can take this to make them more of a "caster"
- In addition to an Occultist's spirits' minors, this also affects constellation aspects, making them a stronger feature and more likely to be chosen
- Encourages use of limited abilities rather than squirreling them away
- Is similar to Extra Rage, Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Performance, etc. and so fits thematically with the other Paizo featsExtend Reserve:
- Increases the effectiveness of Reserve Spirit and so encourages its use in multiple binding builds
- Is another candidate for a 5th-level binder secret (with the adjustment to Reserve Spirit's prerequisites) and is focused on utility, not just altering a major ability
- More time that Reserve Spirit can be used increases its appeal for bindersHopefully some of the others will help me make this argument as well. :)
If I had to choose only one of these secrets to be added it would be Bountiful Abilities, due to its universal appeal to any binder.
I do really enjoy Extend Reserve and would like to see it added as well, but not every binder is going to take Reserve Spirit; however, every binder is going to have minor abilities, which Bountiful Abilities applies to.
I have Occult Options as well, and I agree, Bountiful Abilities does seem to be a natural fit as something that Should be in the "Big Book". If it's not to late to +1 this idea, count me in.
Was Ubro ever looked at after Dexion's playtest findings? Something about only being able to heal his party once using Ubro at lv. 5 I think it was. I know it was at 3+CHA a day, and that was found to be too much, but once seems the polar opposite. What if it were just CHA a day?
The problem is that 3 + Cha could be a LOT more uses of channel energy if you have the opportunity to use it plenty of times. Its a weird circumstance, but it could come up.
I'm going to look at swapping around Ubro's major and minors around; see if I can figure out something that isn't quite so abusable.
Also, I'll bring it back up, since the Occult Weapon only lasts for 24 hrs., what happens if one makes an expanded pact that lasts longer than 24 hrs while using the Occult Weapon in place of the vestigial bond? Do you just get your minor ability back? Or is it locked away in an alternate plane of unhappiness?
Occult weapon isn't going to have that time stamp anymore. It'll last for the pact's full duration.
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I have gone through the spirits and constellation aspects and have compiled the following list of spell-like abilities / "functions as" that have material components that cost >1gp.
Seer Constellation Aspect:
-Augury: 25 gp
-Divination: 25 gpTyrant Cromwell
Indiscernable Alignment: Uses "functions as" language, as nondetection; 50 gp.Forty-Two
Advanced Computing: As augury, 25 gp.Iona Ophid
Iona's Gift: Depends upon the bard spells chosen.Catha of Codex
Word Casting: Depends upon the wordspells chosen.Circe's Runes
Circe's Foresight: 25 gp
Runes of Circe:
- magic mouth: 10 gp
- arcane lock: 25 gp
- illusory script: 50 gp
- malicious spite: 150 gp
- lesser simulacrum: 500 gp/HDMishpo
Master of Deception: Depends upon the sorcerer/wizard spells chosen.Omlan Atlan
Fabrication: As fabricate, this is one of the abilities that the rule was needed for.Tentacles of Dagon
Dagon Knows: Divination, 25 gpJayna Warlock
Song of Rising Barriers: For metal acts as wall of iron (50gp).Quicksilver
Weapon Smithing: As fabricate, this is one of the abilities that the rule was needed for.Ahnel Soltanis
Astral Voyage: Functions as lesser astral projection, requiring a 1,000gp jacinth.Doomed Salu'im
Orb of the End-Times: 50 gpEssek Avix
Unwilling Shield: As spell of same name, 250gp.Evening Star
Vestigial Boon: This ability specifically indicates that it can be changed to instantaneous by paying 500gp/HD, which is the same as the material component cost. By the new ruling, a binder would be paying 1000gp/HD when using this ability.Roshar
Mend the Broken: Functions as restoration (100gp or 1,000gp) or greater restoration (5,000gp).Solterra
Create Life: Specifically mentions requiring a material component if you want the full 1 hour/level duration.Ashvattha
Gift of Magic: Functions as miracle, which requires components depending upon its effect (if it's a 100gp+ component).Eschalon
Aura of Desecration: Functions as desecrate, which would require 25gp.
Sow Misery: Functions as cursed earth, which requires 10,000gp of powdered onyx. However, cursed earth is permanent, while sow misery only lasts until the pact ends (a maximum of 5 days).Kaylos
Twisted Wish: Explicitly states the material component is required unless the target is affected by sinful desire.Tartarus
Wall of Suppression: Functions as the spell of the same name and requires 1,000gp. However, the duration of this ability is 1 minute/level vs. 10 minutes/level of the spell.
Vestigial Bond: Functions as animate dead, requiring 25gp/HD of the ghost. The ghost created only lasts for 1 round/binder level, however.
After going through the different effects, I believe that the wording regarding material components is unnecessary. The spell-like abilities / "functions as" abilities should act as normal spell-like abilities, unless otherwise indicated in their entries.
Why Should They Function as Normal Spell-Like Abilities?
- Most of the spells that require >1gp components require them due to a combination of the duration and power of the ability. With binding, the effects can last an absolute maximum of the duration of the pact, unless otherwise noted. Additionally, some abilities already take into account the power of the effect, limiting the binder's use; for example, wall of suppression lasts 10 minutes/level normally; a binder can use it a maximum of binder level minutes/day.
- The material component cost doesn't make sense for some abilities. For example, wall of suppression. Would a binder pay this cost every time she uses this ability? Would she only pay the cost once a day? Would it be divided among the amount of times she can make the wall available for? What if she never uses the ability for the duration of the pact?
- Many of the abilities with >1gp components are so low-cost that it renders the components pointless at higher levels, yet they detract from using the abilities at low-levels due to the higher value. Examples for this are any of the augury or divination abilities. At 10th level, the 25gp cost may mean nothing, but at low-level you'd be wary to use the ability at all, thereby making it a sub-par ability.
- There are abilities that already have wording that indicates when they require material components: twisted wish, create life, and Evening Star's vestigial bond. This indicates that the no material components function of spell-like abilities was already considered when creating the abilities.
- As normal spell-like abilities any vestigial companion can use the abilities, whether animal, familiar, eidolon, humanoid, or other. This prevents unforeseen issues regarding "How does my companion use a spell-component pouch?" as well as ensuring that the share granted abilities effect is full-power.
What's Wrong With Fabricate?
One of the ability effects that necessitated the ruling of use of material components, this is a rare spell that has the material component equal to the target of the effect. It is poor wording, but it is easily abused by players.
The Solution?
The solution I propose it to put the "material component required" language in each ability that requires it. This will avoid any confusion between pact-magic spell-like abilities and normal spell-like abilities and allows the creators of the Minor Abilities to restrict a binder's freedom when using the abilities. If space is an issue, then a new superscript can be used to indicate that this spell requires a material component.
The abilities that I think need the extra wording for material components:
Iona Ophid
Iona's Gift: Due to the versatility of this ability requiring material components will avoid any potential abuse.Catha of Codex
Word Casting: Due to the versatility of this ability requiring material components will avoid any potential abuse.Mishpo
Master of Deception: Although this is limited to 2nd-level and lower spells, Iona Ophid and Cantha of Codex grant a similar ability; having the same wording be used helps fit the theme of the abilities.Omlan Atlan
Fabrication: No question; requires the material component.Quicksilver
Weapon Smithing: No question; requires the material component.Evening Star
Vestigial Boon: This ability already takes material components into account; keep the current wording.Roshar
Mend the Broken: From the wording of the ability (and the requirement of being able to bind a Level 8 spirit) I'm not sure if this is desired to have a material component or not; listing it here just in case, in which case a material component can be listed.Solterra
Create Life: This ability already takes material components into account; keep the current wording.Ashvattha
Gift of Magic: Although the wording of miracle already states the material component requirements, listing it explicitly will avoid any confusion, and be similar to its counterpart, wish.Eschalon
Sow Misery: Change the wording to be similar to Solterra's create life; providing the component will result in a permanent duration; otherwise its duration is a maximum of the duration of the pact.Kaylos
Twisted Wish: This ability already takes material components into account; keep the current wording.
The problem is that 3 + Cha could be a LOT more uses of channel energy if you have the opportunity to use it plenty of times. Its a weird circumstance, but it could come up.
I'm going to look at swapping around Ubro's major and minors around; see if I can figure out something that isn't quite so abusable.
Yeah. I could understand how 3 + CHA could get out of hand quick. I'll be interested to see how it works out in the end, since to me, Ubro was the primary healer spirit.
Occult weapon isn't going to have that time stamp anymore. It'll last for the pact's full duration.
Cool.
Q: Marat's capstone empowerment says "If defend the ward is used as an immediate action in response to an attack, you become the target of the attack instead of your ally." What happens if you used the ability as an immediate action in response to being attacked yourself, to shift the tank into position to absorb the blow?
Also, I'm sure I've just missed the relevant information, but there seem to be a number of spirits with abilities which refer to saving throws, but don't specify what saves they are. Al'Kra is an example:
"Inspire Terror: You inspire dread and fright within one
target within 30 feet as a standard action, causing it to become
frightened for 1 round per binder level you possess. Whether
or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of
this granted ability again for 1 day."
Is there some paragraph giving a default saving throw type and DC? I used ctrl-f with a few likely phrases, but didn't find anything.
Was Ubro ever looked at after Dexion's playtest findings? Something about only being able to heal his party once using Ubro at lv. 5 I think it was. I know it was at 3+CHA a day, and that was found to be too much, but once seems the polar opposite. What if it were just CHA a day?The problem is that 3 + Cha could be a LOT more uses of channel energy if you have the opportunity to use it plenty of times. Its a weird circumstance, but it could come up.
I'm going to look at swapping around Ubro's major and minors around; see if I can figure out something that isn't quite so abusable.
How is 3+cha mod too much? It's the same as a cleric, except more restrictive because it's usable only once every five rounds. And you can't pick up extra channel feats for it.
I've built and played clerics who focus exclusively on channel energy, and even with the extra channels it still seemed like it was never enough. Restricted to just healing and once every five rounds balances it out enough - even at 3+cha.
Since this spirit doesn't give any other ways to heal, then the major ability is really only a once or twice per combat ability. Maybe after a particularly bad fight it'll be used to heal up the whole party maybe once a day.
Was Ubro ever looked at after Dexion's playtest findings? Something about only being able to heal his party once using Ubro at lv. 5 I think it was. I know it was at 3+CHA a day, and that was found to be too much, but once seems the polar opposite. What if it were just CHA a day?The problem is that 3 + Cha could be a LOT more uses of channel energy if you have the opportunity to use it plenty of times. Its a weird circumstance, but it could come up.
I'm going to look at swapping around Ubro's major and minors around; see if I can figure out something that isn't quite so abusable.
How is 3+cha mod too much? It's the same as a cleric, except more restrictive because it's usable only once every five rounds. And you can't pick up extra channel feats for it.
I've built and played clerics who focus exclusively on channel energy, and even with the extra channels it still seemed like it was never enough. Restricted to just healing and once every five rounds balances it out enough - even at 3+cha.
Since this spirit doesn't give any other ways to heal, then the major ability is really only a once or twice per combat ability. Maybe after a particularly bad fight it'll be used to heal up the whole party maybe once a day.
There are a hundred houses in the town.
I go into every house and use channel energy to heal every resident of the town.
A town has a population of 1,000 people. I likely just used my channel energy ability over a hundred times during that day.
Is this niche? Yes. Should an occultist be able to do this with the cleric's major class feature? No. Should the CLERIC, via archetype, be able to do this with her only real class feature? No.
Was Ubro ever looked at after Dexion's playtest findings? Something about only being able to heal his party once using Ubro at lv. 5 I think it was. I know it was at 3+CHA a day, and that was found to be too much, but once seems the polar opposite. What if it were just CHA a day?The problem is that 3 + Cha could be a LOT more uses of channel energy if you have the opportunity to use it plenty of times. Its a weird circumstance, but it could come up.
I'm going to look at swapping around Ubro's major and minors around; see if I can figure out something that isn't quite so abusable.
How is 3+cha mod too much? It's the same as a cleric, except more restrictive because it's usable only once every five rounds. And you can't pick up extra channel feats for it.
I've built and played clerics who focus exclusively on channel energy, and even with the extra channels it still seemed like it was never enough. Restricted to just healing and once every five rounds balances it out enough - even at 3+cha.
Since this spirit doesn't give any other ways to heal, then the major ability is really only a once or twice per combat ability. Maybe after a particularly bad fight it'll be used to heal up the whole party maybe once a day.
There are a hundred houses in the town.
I go into every house and use channel energy to heal every resident of the town.
A town has a population of 1,000 people. I likely just used my channel energy ability over a hundred times during that day.
Is this niche? Yes. Should an occultist be able to do this with the cleric's major class feature? No. Should the CLERIC, via archetype, be able to do this with her only real class feature? No.
:/
You can't fit that many people in a 30' radius.
Additionally, it doesn't matter how many people you heal, you've only used your ability 3+cha mod. It doesn't get recharged if someone gets healed. Channel Energy has never been considered to be used once for each person it heals, and looking at it in this light and then calling it over powered is more than unfair - it's borderline dishonest.
I'm going to throw in some more arguments:
Let's pretend that you can hit 100 people per use, in our town scenario. So what? How does that effect game balance? They're NPCs, not PCs that are getting healed. At most, you have a roleplay opportunity at the cost of your primary ability. Those NPCs aren't then going to go off and adventure for you. They're healed at most a handful of d6. It's completely irrelevant in terms of game balance.
For pathfinder, healing PCs is where game balance should be considered, and you're only going to heal a handful of them a few times a day, maybe a few more with an exceptionally high charisma score. No different than the cleric, except the cleric's ability is better - he doesn't have to wait 5 rounds to use it again (and I don't know how many times I've saved the party from a TPK by channeling twice in a row - can't do that with this spirit).
What if a cleric picks it up? well, the cleric has to trade channel energy to get the archetype, so picking up a weaker version of channel energy cannot be considered over powered in any sense of the word.
The only way I can see this being over powered is if you have a different version of Healing Surge than I do, and searching this thread doesn't reveal any updates to the ability.
Was Ubro ever looked at after Dexion's playtest findings? Something about only being able to heal his party once using Ubro at lv. 5 I think it was. I know it was at 3+CHA a day, and that was found to be too much, but once seems the polar opposite. What if it were just CHA a day?The problem is that 3 + Cha could be a LOT more uses of channel energy if you have the opportunity to use it plenty of times. Its a weird circumstance, but it could come up.
I'm going to look at swapping around Ubro's major and minors around; see if I can figure out something that isn't quite so abusable.
How is 3+cha mod too much? It's the same as a cleric, except more restrictive because it's usable only once every five rounds. And you can't pick up extra channel feats for it.
I've built and played clerics who focus exclusively on channel energy, and even with the extra channels it still seemed like it was never enough. Restricted to just healing and once every five rounds balances it out enough - even at 3+cha.
Since this spirit doesn't give any other ways to heal, then the major ability is really only a once or twice per combat ability. Maybe after a particularly bad fight it'll be used to heal up the whole party maybe once a day.
There are a hundred houses in the town.
I go into every house and use channel energy to heal every resident of the town.
A town has a population of 1,000 people. I likely just used my channel energy ability over a hundred times during that day.
Is this niche? Yes. Should an occultist be able to do this with the cleric's major class feature? No. Should the CLERIC, via archetype, be able to do this with her only real class feature? No.
:/
You can't fit that many people in a 30' radius.
Additionally, it doesn't matter how many people you heal, you've only used your ability 3+cha mod. It doesn't get recharged if someone gets healed. Channel Energy has...
I have to agree. I'm struggling to think of any situation where every resident in a town suddenly needs to be healed urgently. It wouldn't help in the case of a sudden plague, or whatever...you'd need cure disease for that. Even if you do suddenly need to save a town from bleeding to death, that's probably a challenge the GM has specifically planned for the PCs to have to deal with, and there's nothing wrong with having abilities to deal with it. I can construct rather more likely hypothetical examples to show that most of the other major abilities are equally "broken":
Aza'zati's acid gout can break you through any nonmagical lock, door and chest in the game, given time.Coralene's unexpected slip can get you through any door or barrier, past enemies, *and* acts as a semi hide in plain sight!
Marat's defend the ward is amazing if you want to get someone out of jail, and have a caster who prepared gaseous form today.
etc
It's impossible to really "balance" abilities with respect to this sort of situation - the best you can do is say that abilities which have more versatility, or allow the player more creativity in how they're used, are more likely to be useful. Channel energy does neither of these things.
And I've always felt that *spells* were the cleric's major class feature, not channel energy...
Rereading my posts, I would like to apologize if I came across a little harsh. I'm normally not like that.
Very rough night last night; wife was up all night very sick and the kids were crying (she was too sick to take care of even one of them). I got only a couple of hours of sleep. Plus I had to get up extra early to take the kids to daycare (which my wife normally does). Also made me late for work, which adds to the apprehension.
Anyways, sorry.
Aza'zati's acid gout can break you through any nonmagical lock, door and chest in the game, given time.
Coralene's unexpected slip can get you through any door or barrier, past enemies, *and* acts as a semi hide in plain sight!
Marat's defend the ward is amazing if you want to get someone out of jail, and have a caster who prepared gaseous form today.
etc
I don't even consider those over powered or abusive. I consider those creative ways to use an ability and the player should be rewarded for thinking up such a creative solution.
And I've always felt that *spells* were the cleric's major class feature, not channel energy...
Agreed. A cleric is a 9th level caster. That's their primary ability.
I do feel that Night Fang should grant some natural attacks, what with being a mish-mash of several creatures. Different movement modes would be nice as well, abilities that start out poor and eventually get better.
Bat: No natural attacks, fly 15 ft. (poor), fly speed upgrades.
Crocodile: Tail slap, swim 15 ft., swim speed upgrades.
Spider: No natural attacks, climb 15 ft., climb speed upgrades, eventually gains claws.
Wolf: Bite, land speed increase of 5 ft., land speed increases.
To balance it you can have his sign act as a polymorph effect which will prevent other similar abilities.
The imagery of a big gestalt of creatures having the abilities of its component parts, getting stronger as the binder's power increases, is compelling to me, and it would also ensure that Night Fang would be a good melee/versatile abilities spirit starts weak and ends strong.
I've decided that Night Fang is fine with what he does. The idea of an option like this is cool, but ultimately having four-five natural attacks on a single spirit is NOT a good idea. This could be neat for a future PrC themed around Night Fang, though.
Both the Occult Sadist and the Pact Protector Inquisitor archetypes get the same exact ability for binding spirits. Yet the Occult Sadist gets diminished spellcasting while the Pact Protector loses spellcasting altogether. There's nothing that the Pact Protector gets that makes the loss of spell casting worth it when the other Inquisitor archetype gets the identical ability without losing spell casting.
This is flat wrong. The occult sadist has lore of pain, which states she can only seal pacts with spirits from the Fiend constellation. The pactsworn protector, however, can seal a pact with any spirit she likes and she trades her teamwork feats for pact augmentations, which are generally more useful to the inquisitor because they're numeric bonuses that don't require anything special to use.
And why would a Pact Protector want the ability to perform an Exorcism (from the occult domain)? The single subdomain that can replace it doesn't seem to fit within the archetype's flavor either. I feel like there should be one more subdomain which replaces the 8th level domain power. Maybe granting the binding secret Empower Major Ability or Bouncing Major Ability so they can better defend the Pact.
By that logic, why should the occultist have a binder secret that can dismiss pacts? The simple answer is that if you're really good at something, you should be able to counter that thing too. Pact magic deities recognize this, which is why even the gods who are benevolent towards pact magic give their followers a means to quickly terminate pacts. (No one ever said that you couldn't exorcise yourself, after all. Its not ideal, but its doable. Any pact protectors that have ever had to deal with ravager spirits know this all-too well.)
Well, what I was getting at originally is that...RAW, you can't identify auras using Spellcraft with detect magic. You have to use Knowledge (arcana). Spellcraft can be used with detect magic, but only to identify the properties of a magic item. Unless Arcane Scent is supposed to be an exception, but then I would suggest rephrasing the ability to make it clear that it's an exception.
Got'cha. Double-checked detect magic and switched to Knowledge (arcana).