theillway |
I know that there are lots of places where bleed damage specifically says it doesn't multiply on a crit (Deadly Stroke, Wounding weapon special ability, etc.), but there are some places where it doesn't say that.
For example, the Gunslinger's Bleeding Wound deed does bleed damage equal to the Dexterity modifier or, alternately, does 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution bleed. It says that creatures immune to sneak attack are immune to this damage, but it doesn't say that it doesn't multiply on a crit.
Does that mean that if I crit with a pistol or a musket, I can give them 4 points of Con bleed?
Shar Tahl |
crits effect weapon dice and modifiers to that weapon dice. They do not change additional effects unless specifically stated as an override.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit (see Equipment).
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
theillway |
I guess I'm not seeing the distinction. My understanding was that variable extra damage, such as sneak attack or the flaming weapon property, would not be multiplied. However, static bonuses such as from Weapon Specialization, smite, favored enemy, or from an enhancement bonus would multiply.
This is not a bonus from a weapon special ability, this is additional damage from a class feature. If you crit with a touch spell that deals ability damage, that damage doubles, so clearly crits aren't limited to just normal weapon damage. (See spells and critical hits.)
I would understand if "bleeding" were a condition like stunned or blinded, but it isn't. It is damage.
Also, if it were part of the core rules that bleed damage doesn't multiply on a crit, then why do some sources point out that they don't multiply? That would be redundant.
Calth |
I guess I'm not seeing the distinction. My understanding was that variable extra damage, such as sneak attack or the flaming weapon property, would not be multiplied. However, static bonuses such as from Weapon Specialization, smite, favored enemy, or from an enhancement bonus would multiply.
This is not a bonus from a weapon special ability, this is additional damage from a class feature. If you crit with a touch spell that deals ability damage, that damage doubles, so clearly crits aren't limited to just normal weapon damage. (See spells and critical hits.)
I would understand if "bleeding" were a condition like stunned or blinded, but it isn't. It is damage.
Also, if it were part of the core rules that bleed damage doesn't multiply on a crit, then why do some sources point out that they don't multiply? That would be redundant.
Weapon Specialization and such multiply because they say bonus to damage, not extra damage. Those two terms are different things in pathfinder. Things that give a bonus to damage generally are multiplied by a crit, extra damage is not.
theillway |
I don't think that use of language is a precise as you make it out to be. For example, the ninja trick Pressure Points says "Whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she also deals 1 point of Strength or Dexterity damage, decided by the ninja." So is this "bonus" damage or "extra" damage?
The feat Precise Strike says "you deal an additional 1d6 points of precision damage with each successful melee attack." Again, this ignores the semantics that you point out as the deciding difference.
I'm being pedantic and stupid, I know. I'm playing devil's advocate because I'm hoping someone has a really clear way to shoot this down. And I do appreciate your point, that some damage is part of the base damage that multiplies, and some is icing on the cake. I just don't think that it all hinges on that word choice, because word choice is notoriously inconsistent.
The Core Rulebook says this about what damage multiplies: "Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
...
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied."
Also, from a post above, "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together." Bleed damage is part of your usual bonuses.
This is my understanding of what multiplies. Flat numbers multiply, dice do not. If the ability damage from a spell gets multiplied, why doesn't bleed damage?
(Sorry for the lack of links/cites and multiple edits; I'm posting from my phone.)
Maezer |
I would understand if "bleeding" were a condition like stunned or blinded, but it isn't. It is damage.
Bleed is a condition. Open your core rulebook, page 565, look in appendix 2: conditions, and the first one listed is bleed.
Bleed deals 0 damage as part of an attack. It deals damage as condition at the start of the afflicted characters turn with no attack roll involved thus it cannot crit.
thaX |
To be clear, I and others may have done Bleed Damage wrong on the initial bleed damage, to wit, the GM/Player should say "and you gain Bleed-2" instead of "You take 2 bleed damage."
I shall have to mention this to my colleges when I game next week.
also, Bleed typically does not stack damage, only the highest effect is used. The Wounding weapon property is an exception to that.
theillway |
"Bleed: A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn."
I want contesting that it wasn't a condition. The point I was aiming for us that it isn't a toggle yes or no condition like stunned. You're either stunned or you're not. Bleed is different.
I think, though, that the phrase "the listed amount" is the end of it. There's no way to claim that a listed amount can crit.
Thanks for the lively discussion, folks! Now I'm annoyed with the phrasing of every bleed ability about an attack that "does bleed damage.". You're not doing bleed damage, you're giving them the bleed condition