Grappling Universal Monster Rules


Rules Questions


I’m a little confused on the whole monster rules for grapple and have gotten so many conflicting answers I though I’d make a new post and see if any general consensus has been reached. For the record I’m good on the normal rules for grappling.

First Grab:

Grab:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

So if I understand this correctly you make an attack, and if it hits you do damage as normal and then get a free grapple attempt that does not provoke a AoO. The question is do you also get to do the damage for the attack for on each subsequent successful check to maintain the grapple. So is it either:

So both options have the same round one listed below:
Round 1 Attacker: Attack > Hit and Damage > Grab > Successful Grapple Check (both parties are now grappled)
Round 1 Defender: Either doesn’t try to break the grapple, or fails his check (both parties are still grappled)

Option 1)
Round 2+ Attacker: make a grapple check that succeeds > Auto hit from source of grab, do damage > Get standard grapple action (move, damage, pin/tie up)
Option 2)
Round 2+ Attacker: make a grapple check that succeeds > Auto hit from source of grab, do damage (this is required, and replaces the standard grapple action)
Option 3)
Round 2+ Attacker: make a grapple check that succeeds > Get standard grapple action (move, damage, pin/tie up)

Second Rake:

Rake:
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

So the question here is are rakes in addition to the standard grapple action, or a optional replacement for the attack option of the standard grapple action.

This one has the same round one as above.

Option 1)
Round 2+ Attacker: make a grapple check that succeeds > Get your rake attacks, rolling to hit as normal and doing damage as normal > Get standard grapple action
Option 2)
Round 2+ Attacker: make a grapple check that succeeds > Get your rake attacks these automatically hit and do damage (replacing the attack option on the standard grapple list)
Option 3)
Round 2+ Attacker: make a grapple check that succeeds > Get your rake attacks, rolling to hit as normal and doing damage as normal (replacing the attack option on the standard grapple list)

Finally, for completeness, Constrict:

Constrict:
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.

This one seems strait forward, basically every time you successfully make a grapple check to start or maintain a grapple do you constrict damage, no roll to hit needed. If I’m wrong about this one please let me know.


errr....bump?

Grand Lodge

Before Rake, I'd say option 3 is the correct one (assuming the monster doesn't have greater / rapid grapple)

With Rake:

I'd say you do your standard action grapple check (Pin, Damage, etc.) Then you could get your two free claws. I think the grapple check has to go first, because if you don't maintain the grapple, then Rake doesn't matter.

Constrict, as long as you check to maintain the grapple (and succeed) you can roll your grapple damage again.

This is at least as I see it. Hope it helps.

Grand Lodge

Lets see.

For the grab question, Option 3 is correct. This is because grab specifically calls out 'start a grapple.'

For the Rake question, Option 3 is correct. Rake gives you a new option as part of maintaining the grapple, which is to attack with both claws.

For the Constrict observation, that is correct. Constrict's 'to-hit' rolls is the CMB check, sort of.


By the RAW I don't think Rake can ever be used. You "obviously" can't use it when you Pounce since you must start your turn grappling to use Rake and explicitly can't start a grapple and Rake on the same turn.

Even if you do start your turn grappling you probably can't technically use the two free attacks from Rake since using extra attacks generally requires a Full Attack. The Rake attacks need to be used against a grappled foe, and you won't be able to both maintain the grapple and make a Full Attack unless you have Rapid Grappler (which most monsters in the Bestiary don't have). Rules Text: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks."

In practice I allow Rakes on a Pounce and also allow free Rake attacks once per round starting in round 2 of a grapple being maintained. I would allow the monster to use whatever options normally exist on the check to maintain the grapple and apply damage, a pin, etc as normal before attempting the free Rakes. For instance, a lion who Grabbed you with his Bite could grapple you for damage and inflict Bite damage and then also Rake you twice for Claw damage. Alternately the lion could Pin you and then Rake you twice (which is probably more dangerous really)

My big grappling question is whether or not the Pinned condition needs to be maintained each round separately from the Grappled condition. What I mean by that is whether a creature pinning another has to select the "Pin" action each round while maintaining the grapple to maintain the pin or is free to select other options like moving the foe or causing damage. The answer to this could make an absolutely gigantic difference in combat, especially for creatures which have Grab but not Constrict or Rake. Owlbears would suddenly be a lot scarier, for instance.

Grand Lodge

Devilkiller wrote:

By the RAW I don't think Rake can ever be used. You "obviously" can't use it when you Pounce since you must start your turn grappling to use Rake and explicitly can't start a grapple and Rake on the same turn.

Even if you do start your turn grappling you probably can't technically use the two free attacks from Rake since using extra attacks generally requires a Full Attack. The Rake attacks need to be used against a grappled foe, and you won't be able to both maintain the grapple and make a Full Attack unless you have Rapid Grappler (which most monsters in the Bestiary don't have). Rules Text: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks."

If you start your turn grappling, then you can maintain the Grapple and choose to Rake, similar to choosing to Pin, or Move, or Attack. If you choose to Rake, you get both attacks, even if you do not use a full-attack. The specific allowance of the rules overrides the general limitation.

Devilkiller wrote:
In practice I allow Rakes on a Pounce and also allow free Rake attacks once per round starting in round 2 of a grapple being maintained. I would allow the monster to use whatever options normally exist on the check to maintain the grapple and apply damage, a pin, etc as normal before attempting the free Rakes. For instance, a lion who Grabbed you with his Bite could grapple you for damage and inflict Bite damage and then also Rake you twice for Claw damage. Alternately the lion could Pin you and then Rake you twice (which is probably more dangerous really)

I understand that you are houseruling this, but this is allowing the creature quite a bit of extra damage/actions for free. Normally, Rake is suppose to give a creature (which usually have limited intelligence) a good damage option during a grapple, instead of just pinning round 2, then attacking once per turn rounds 3+. To have a creature Pin and do a Rake attack is very, very powerful, especially in the hands of a smart Hunter or Druid.

Devilkiller wrote:
My big grappling question is whether or not the Pinned condition needs to be maintained each round separately from the Grappled condition. What I mean by that is whether a creature pinning another has to select the "Pin" action each round while maintaining the grapple to maintain the pin or is free to select other options like moving the foe or causing damage. The answer to this could make an absolutely gigantic difference in combat, especially for creatures which have Grab but not Constrict or Rake. Owlbears would suddenly be a lot scarier, for instance.

The answer is no, you do not need to maintain a pin. Once a target has the pinned condition, it is pinned until either the creature pinning it fails to maintain, or releases the grapple. Note that a pinned creature just needs to succeed one opposed grapple check to get out of both the grapple and the pin, not two as is sometimes thought. If a creature has pinned another creature, they are then free to select other grapple options in later rounds.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

It is possible that Rake is intended to work in the manner you've proposed with a new "Rake" action being added to the usual list of actions available while maintaining the grapple (Move, Damage, Pin, and Tie Up). If so that seems really unclear from the RAW though, and the fact the text for Rake refers to the attacks as "free" seems to imply that you shouldn't have to sacrifice something else to gain them. I mean, if you give up the Bite damage you could normally inflict while maintaining the grapple with the "Damage" action for the chance to make 2 Claw attacks I wouldn't call that "free". I guess I should also ask whether you think the two free Claw attacks require attack rolls or just automatically hit and do damage if the grapple check is successful. I'd assume the former. I'll also ask if you allow Rake attacks during a Pounce. I do even though that seems to contradict the language in the Rake ability which says, "A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake". I think whoever wrote that might have assumed we'd be smart enough to know that restriction only applies to the use of Rake while grappling rather than to the use of Rake while pouncing. I'm not really that worried about Rake though. I think it is pretty clear how it is "supposed to" work and even the difference between your interpretation and mine seems pretty minor to me.

I'm aware that the two checks needed to move from pinned to freedom was cut down to one in Pathfinder. I don't think it is clear from the RAW whether the Pin needs to be maintained from round to round though, especially in the light of 3.5 history. Paizo actually took the time to clarify that getting out of a pin only requires one successful check. I'd like it if they could also take the time to clarify whether you need to use the Pin action each round to maintain the Pin. There's really nothing in the new rules which implies this is the case, but every Pathfinder game I've played in has treated it that way. As a result, most monsters rarely use the Pin action, and monsters with Grab but not Constrict tend to get killed by full attacks from the grappled PC. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just that it might change dramatically if an Owlbear could Pin you in round 2 and then Damage you in subsequent rounds without losing the Pin.

Now that I've started thinking about it a little more I'm also beginning to wonder how Swallow Whole should work in a world where a Pin doesn't need to be maintained. I'd assume that once you're swallowed whole you just have the grappled condition rather than the pinned condition since otherwise you wouldn't have a chance to cut your way out of the monster's stomach (something which is currently way too easy in most cases but should certainly be possible)

Sczarni

Much misinformation in this thread already.

A creature with Pounce and Rake can indeed Rake on a Pounce.

You do *not* need to only be in a grapple.

The option to Rake after succeeding to maintain the grapple is in addition to the standard options always available to other creatures.

So, instead of Pin/Damage/Move, now you have Pin/Damage/Move/Rake.

And the Grab ability works differently from Bestiary to Bestiary. I can't recall the exact hiccup at the moment, but I believe it has something to do with the size of the creature capable of being grabbed.


Regarding Grab, there was a FAQ a while back based on a question I posted. Bestiary said that you could only use Grab on creatures smaller than you while Bestiary 2 said that you could use Grab on creatures of up to your own size. The FAQ upheld the rules from Bestiary 2 as the correct ones. Of course that size limitation is just the default and a specific creature's Grab ability might specify something different. For instance, my Feral Gnasher is Small but can Grab up to Medium creatures, and in a few levels he'll be able to use Grab on Large creatures too.

Anyhow, I'm not saying that a create shouldn't be able to Rake on a Pounce, just that it might appear that way based on the RAW for Rake. When the RAW and the way most people expect things to work aren't in alignment I think that's a great time for a FAQ. I think that whether or not you need to maintain the Pin is a much more important question than anything regarding Rake though. As I've said, there's really nothing I can find in the rules which seems to imply that you should need to use the Pin action round after round to keep somebody pinned, but I've never seen a DM who didn't play it that way. Maybe I've just played with 6 or 7 weird DMs and everybody else knows the right way, but from where I'm sitting it seems like there's some potential confusion on this issue.

Something else which has changed since 3.5 is that there don't seem to be any size limits on what you can grapple (not Grab, just grapple). Maybe that was intentional, or maybe it was just an omission.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:

Much misinformation in this thread already.

A creature with Pounce and Rake can indeed Rake on a Pounce.

You do *not* need to only be in a grapple.

How can you rationalize this when Rake specifically states you cannot Rake and start a grapple on the same turn?

Rake:
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

Nefreet wrote:

The option to Rake after succeeding to maintain the grapple is in addition to the standard options always available to other creatures.

So, instead of Pin/Damage/Move, now you have Pin/Damage/Move/Rake.

I agree, and this is a clear way of explaining this.

Nefreet wrote:
And the Grab ability works differently from Bestiary to Bestiary. I can't recall the exact hiccup at the moment, but I believe it has something to do with the size of the creature capable of being grabbed.

The phrase "Your size or smaller" has been changed back and forth to "Smaller than your size". Currently, PRD has it as "Your size or smaller".

Sczarni

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Much misinformation in this thread already.

A creature with Pounce and Rake can indeed Rake on a Pounce.

You do *not* need to only be in a grapple.

How can you rationalize this when Rake specifically states you cannot Rake and start a grapple on the same turn?

.

Pounce wrote:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Much misinformation in this thread already.

A creature with Pounce and Rake can indeed Rake on a Pounce.

You do *not* need to only be in a grapple.

How can you rationalize this when Rake specifically states you cannot Rake and start a grapple on the same turn?

.

Pounce wrote:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

I looked at that, but read it as rend, not rake. My mistake.


It seems as though Nefreet has the right of it.

To clarify:
Q1 (Grab) Option 3 is correct
Q2 (Rake) Option 3 is also correct*
Q3 (Constrict) This interpretation is correct

* A pouncing creature can make it's full attack, and may, if, in doing so, provides the necessary circumstances for the Rake special attack, also use it's Rake attack.

In regards to the Pin question, Pinned is a more sever form of the grappled condition. Only one check to maintain the grapple is needed. So, for most grapplers: R1, initiate grapple. R2, Maintain grapple, move condition to Pinned. R3, Maintain grapple(Pinned condition), choose from options available to grappler (move, damage, tie up, etc.)


I guess folks feel that the text in Pounce allowing Rake is specific text which trumps the general text in the Rake ability which requires you to be grappling to use Rake. Maybe that's true, and I've certainly always played it that way, but I've had DMs challenge it in the past due to the text under the Rake ability repeatedly mentioning grappling restrictions.

I'm still not firmly convinced that the "free" attacks from Rake aren't in addition to what you get from Move/Damage/Pin/Tie Up rather than in place of it. Granted, Rake says it offers a new "option" while grappling, but I'm not sure if "option" and "action" are equivalent here. For instance, I'd consider Constrict to be an additional "option" you have when you succeed on a grapple check using one of the grapple "actions". I wouldn't force a creature or character to use Constrict if he or she didn't want to (perhaps because they just wanted to Pin somebody without harming them). Similarly, I'd consider making two free Claw attacks with Rake to be an option you can choose to take advantage of or not when you start a round grappling rather than an alternative to the regular actions available during a grapple.

Being able to maintain a Pin from round to round without using the Pin action each round would be a huge change for many groups. I agree that there's nothing in the rules which implies you need to keep on using the Pin action, but I doubt that most people I play with would agree to change how things are done without some comment by Paizo showing this was an intentional change rather than an oversight. I did raise the idea during a previous campaign, but the DM dismissed it partially due to concerns that it would make the monsters too deadly. I'd feel a little guilty if we switched rules and people had some PCs die and then later on Paizo said it was just an oversight and you do indeed need to use the Pin action every round to keep somebody pinned.

I kind of wish that the pinned condition just gave you some big penalties on your actions rather than making you essentially unable to act. That's obviously a separate issue and beyond a "rules question" though.

Grand Lodge

If the Pinned condition was something you had to maintain, you would never be able to use the "Tie Up" option, and most grapplers would never get to do damage of any sort.

The big thing about Rake is this: It is not constrict. Constrict lets you deal damage just by making a grapple check, and does not care what you do with it. Rake cares, as you get two attacks, have to roll to hit, etc.

I personally would not call not having to maintain Pinned an oversight, primarily due to the amount of actions it doesn't allow the grappler to perform, as well as the risk it can impose in a multiple enemy combat. Be sure you are not forgetting the negative effects that the grappled condition and pinned conditions impose on the grappler as well as the grappled.

Sczarni

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
The big thing about Rake is this: It is not constrict. Constrict lets you deal damage just by making a grapple check, and does not care what you do with it. Rake cares, as you get two attacks, have to roll to hit, etc.

You only need to roll attacks for Rake during a Pounce.

If used as one of your options after succeeding on a grapple check, no attack roll is needed. That's what the CMB check was for.

Consequently, this also means you cannot Power Attack on such a damage roll (which I also see many ppl assume you can do).

Grand Lodge

That seems confusing, as it specifically says 'two free attacks", and avoids the language of the damage option of maintaining a grapple. But clearly, Rake has so many interactions/exceptions, I may have missed something.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It seems pretty clear.

Rake grants you two free attacks during a grapple (or during a pounce attack)
Constrict deals damage on a successful grapple check.

Both are seperate from the normal grapple actions. Not a seperate choice instead of those actions. Nothing in the rules states that the two free attacks granted by rake are automatic like the rule for constrict does.

(Posting from my phone so I apologize for any errors and lack of quotes)


As far as I know you can Power Attack while grappling and receive the normal bonus to melee damage rolls. For some reason it seems that Power Attack doesn't get applied to Constrict and Rend though.

I agree with Lance that the intent of Rake seems pretty clear even though I think the wording is somewhat contradictory. Constrict has actually received some FAQ attention in the past, and I think it is one of the easiest parts of grappling to understand and apply now though I still very often see DMs get it wrong initially. Maybe there's some hope that grappling has been addressed somehow in Pathfinder Unchained. I kind of doubt it, but it would be nice if the grappling subsystem got some clarifications and updates since it is one of the more confusing areas of the rules in some ways.

Unarmed combat in d20 games has come a long way from the Pummeling, Grappling, and Overbearing tables in the 1e DMG. It seems like striking has gotten most of the benefit though. Even non-Monks can now punch and kick people using the normal combat rules and without consulting a special Pummeling, Brawling, or Martial Arts table. Meanwhile some folks have actually created flow charts to try to help people understand the grappling rules, but it seems like ultimately nobody can quite agree what those rules are.

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