All Rogue Party


Advice

1 to 50 of 67 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm tinkering with campaign ideas for the next game I run and one thing that came to mind is an all Rogue party. The problem is the system mastery varies pretty broadly between my players, so while I can just point them to the best player and say "take his advice," I want some ideas on very basic, easily-adjustable Rogue builds that are fun and varied.

The idea is they'll ONLY be allowed to take levels in Rogue. Period. Maybe a prestige class will be allowed. I want these characters to all be Rogues or Rogue archetypes; no Ninjas but Ninja Tricks are allowed.

So, what are...

A) good builds that aren't very complex that newer players could adjust
B) archetypes that when combined can cover every role a party needs
C) ways to do so using UMD and such since archetypes probably can't cover ever need because Rogue

...and how should I scale the challenge rating of the encounters they face? I plan for this to be a largely political game but with nasty combats.


The good rogue archetypes are:
Cult leader
Vivisectionist
Sanctified slayer
Snakebite Striker

If you really want to limited everyone into a "real" rogue than always add the Scout archetype.
Note than in this case you won't have healers, casters or frontliners.

Edit: The answer you did want to hear is probably counterfeit mage from the advanced class guide. This is the UMD rogue.


Tcho Tcho wrote:

The good rogue archetypes are:

Cult leader
Vivisectionist
Sanctified slayer
Snakebite Striker

If you really want to limited everyone into a "real" rogue than always add the Scout archetype.
Note than in this case you won't have healers, casters or frontliners.

One thing: Snakebite Striker is a Brawler Archetype.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Those are all non rogue archetypes. Kind of his point I think.


That was the point, I think. All those archetypes belong to other classes.

Again, I would want to limit this SOLELY to rogues and their archetypes. This is not a "let's bash rogues" thread. This is an exercise in "if there was a party of nothing but rogues, what classes would be used to make it work?"

Yes, I understand the implications of playing a rogue in a game with non-rogues. The point is ALL THE PLAYERS would be rogues. That's intentional.

Proceed.


K-kun the Insane wrote:
One thing: Snakebite Striker is a Brawler Archetype.

All are rogue, non actually have rogue written on their sheet.


I'm not a rogue hater btw.

For spells : counterfeit mage.
For damage : knivemaster and scout.

(I have to look op healer and support brb)


Sap Master builds are often popular due to high damage, and can fit with a social campaign where you want people to interrogate or turn to your side. Enforcer and Shatter defenses add well to that.

Just remember that Rogue talents are *full* of trap options that look flavourful or interesting but are actually terrible. It's really easy to make a bad rogue for a low system-mastery player. One option is to make Combat Trick selectable multiple times by default - this at least just gives them a ton of combat feats to play with.


Now I'm confused...Did you want Rogues as in the class plus archetypes, or did you want rogue-like archetypes from other classes? If the former, then Snakebite Striker is unavailable; if the latter, go nuts.

Sovereign Court

Gunslinger 1, Rogue x
or go the slow route amateur gunslinger/gunsmith route

Sap master feat tree

You never miss flat footed touch.


Quote:
One option is to make Combat Trick selectable multiple times by default - this at least just gives them a ton of combat feats to play with.

I like this. I think I'll allow that.

Quote:
For spells : counterfeit mage.

Hm... Couldn't the Counterfeit Mage work just as well for the party's "cleric"? It doesn't limit the rogue to arcane wands.


Quote:
Now I'm confused...Did you want Rogues as in the class plus archetypes, or did you want rogue-like archetypes from other classes?

This seems to be a matter of some confusion so I'm editing the opening post and bolding the mission statement. Namely...

Quote:
The idea is they'll ONLY be allowed to take levels in Rogue. Period.

So, yeah - only Rogues and archetypes that belong to rogues.

Quote:

Gunslinger 1, Rogue x

or go the slow route amateur gunslinger/gunsmith route

That breaks the point of the exercise due to ONLY Rogue levels being allowed.


Ok:

1. The Monastery Renagade. Scout Rogue. Take Ninja Tricks to get Unarmed Combat Training, and then the Ninja Master Trick Unarmed Combat Mastery. Take Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge as style feats. A bit of a late bloomer - level 12? -, but when it comes online, he's charging and sneak attacking every single round.

2. The Pistolero. Rake/Bandit works well. Build is complex and requires Human, but playstyle is simple - shoot with your gun, spend Grit points to twirl it and feint as a swift action every round, allowing you to attack AC10 for sneak attack! Below is a walkthrough every level:

Spoiler:
FEATS:
1. Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot (use a hand crossbow at this level)
3. Gunsmithing
5. Dazzling Display
7. Rapid Reload
9. Rapid Shot
11. Shatter Defenses

ROGUE TALENTS:
2. Firearm Training
4. Weapon Training (Pistol)
6. Combat Trick: Quick Draw // Grit: Amateur Gunslinger (Quick Clear), Grit Feat (Gun Twirling)
8. Deadly Aim
10. Feat: Clustered Shots
12. Improved Evasion // Slippery Mind

3. The Muscle. Thug/Bandit. Build up that intimidating power with the class features plus the likes of Dazzling Display, Intimidating Prowess (can be taken as a Rogue talent but I recommend taking it on 1st level), Shatter Defenses to ensure sneak attacks, Disheartening Display to empower demoralizes, and then perhaps you want Violent Display (if you can somehow justify associating with weretiger skinwalkers/play as a weretiger skinwalker) to use Dazzling Display as a swift action on the surprise round. Build high STR and really consider that Medium Armor.

4. The Shadow Blade. Sczarni Swindler archetype. Good charisma, probably use Fencing Grace or Dervish Dance. What you want here is build up to Eldritch Heritage (Shadow) and Improved Eldritch Heritage Shadow. That will grant Hide in Plain Sight by level 11th and some nifty powers. Pick up Underhanded as a Rogue talent, enjoy dealing sneak attacks with your magical nonlethal touch attack no one can see coming (who'd guess the Rogue is magical?!) and slice enemies from the shadows for max Underhanded sneaks.

5. The Wonder Hobo. Makeshift Scrapper archetype, possibly with Scout too. Focus on using Improvised Weapons, get the Improved Disarm feats (make use of Weapon Snatcher Rogue Talent) to get enemies disarmed so they count as flat-footed thanks to Catch-Off Guard, which is a free feat for you. Pick up the Surprise Weapon trait of course.


Scout underground chemist the bomber talent and with vital strike line of feats.

Move 10 feet throw a bomb that does sneak attack x 3 (x4/x5) damage.

Sovereign Court

Monk maneuver master 3, rogue x
Go catch off guard and disarm. Eventually use true strike wands to almost never miss cmb.

Lore warden 3, maneuver master 1, rogue thig
Dirty trick to blind then put conditions
Prone
Blind
Sickened
Shaken -> frightened

magus 6, rogue 3, arcane trickster
prescient attack
Spell combat true strike, its very flexible


2 counterfeit mages could work :p If one has to do both I don't think he has any time left for his rogue stuff and will just be a bad wizard...

Sap master with the rake archetype rocks! Thanks Cornivo.


For combat maneuvres check the Skulking Slayer from advanced race guide.


Secret Wizard wrote:
*Lots of good stuff*

This is a great place to start these guys off from... Great ideas.

I have a couple races that will work with Violent Display in my setting. I'll just make a note of that...

Really liking the Pistolero idea. I don't have guns in this setting (yet), but I can either refluff this to work with crossbows or make a magical version of guns that... are... essentially guns. Hm. I'll think on it.

The Wonder Hobo idea is just golden.


Righty_ wrote:

Monk maneuver master 3, rogue x

Go catch off guard and disarm. Eventually use true strike wands to almost never miss cmb.

Lore warden 3, maneuver master 1, rogue thig
Dirty trick to blind then put conditions
Prone
Blind
Sickened
Shaken -> frightened

magus 6, rogue 3, arcane trickster
prescient attack
Spell combat true strike, its very flexible

As mentioned, he wants only rogues (maybe with rogueish prestige classes) and the above are all multiclass. They're not available.

I reccomend a Shadowdancer as an interesting way to get some magic going, and you even get an undead pet too! I'm not too familiar with Rogue archetypes, however, so I'm not sure what would work well with this Prestige class


Quote:
Sap Master builds are often popular due to high damage, and can fit with a social campaign where you want people to interrogate or turn to your side. Enforcer and Shatter defenses add well to that.

Completely missed this post.

Yeah, sap builds are something I'm very aware of. And they WILL work well for what I want them to do, too. This campaign, should I run it, will be a mix-and-match of "The players are the thieves' guild" and "Let's manipulate politics for our benefit!" Plus combat, of course. Sometimes your hands have to get dirty.

So, sap builds WILL work well for this.

Quote:
2 counterfeit mages could work :p If one has to do both I don't think he has any time left for his rogue stuff and will just be a bad wizard...

Definitely something I'm thinking about making note of in my notes. (Redundant I am.)

Quote:

Scout underground chemist the bomber talent and with vital strike line of feats.

Move 10 feet throw a bomb that does sneak attack x 3 (x4/x5) damage.

I--... I... Huh. I never heard of this one in ANY way, shape or form before. I'm checking this out now.

I'll be back later. Going to read up on some of this stuff and return once I've done that.


@ Corvino - yeah, going through the rogue talent list is like digging through garbage for gold. There ARE good talents, but so many of them are terrible.

@ OP: Some races to think about include tengu (for the weapon proficiencies or claws, among other things), half-orc (because seeing in the dark is actually incredibly important, and also lets you fool around with being Jason Vorhees with a great axe), and catfolk (catfolk get all sorts of handy stuff you'd want as a rogue).

Or were you looking at human-only/core race-only?

Encounters: Unless your players think to use consumables, all you really need to shut them down is a high AC opponent. Or blur potions. So keep that in mind. Also, you probably want to use other rogues (or barbarians) sparingly - it'll get annoying very quickly if most of their enemies have uncanny dodge. (One of the rogue class's goofier aspects is having a class ability that's primary purpose is to protect you from other rogues.)

Edit: Teamwork feats give some goofy options that you'll probably want to look into. These guys are going to need to be pretty tightly coordinated, and so those could pretty easily come up.


IIRC, Paizo has about 25-26 Archetypes for the Rogue, plus racial archetypes. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't put together a party to cover just about everything, with no two players playing the same type!

Have the low-system mastery players take the vanilla Rogue. More seasoned players can pick the better archetypes out of the (huge) list because some are pretty bad, but some are pretty cool.


Vexing Dodger
Counterfeit Mage
Underground Chemist
Swashbuckler (Rogue Archetype, not the ACG class)
Scout
Carnivalist
Knife Master
Scroll Scoundrel
Thug

all of these are interesting archetypes that add a lot to the rogue class, regardless of whether or not I think what you are doing is a good idea, OP

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have a player who wants to do this as well, purely to be able to call the team Rogue Squadron.


Inlaa wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
*Lots of good stuff*

This is a great place to start these guys off from... Great ideas.

I have a couple races that will work with Violent Display in my setting. I'll just make a note of that...

Really liking the Pistolero idea. I don't have guns in this setting (yet), but I can either refluff this to work with crossbows or make a magical version of guns that... are... essentially guns. Hm. I'll think on it.

The Wonder Hobo idea is just golden.

I would, as noted before, add a Counterfeit Mage cleric too, but remember that healing is battle is likely not the best option either... so having an Alchemist as well seems like a good choice.

Here's a couple more:

6. The Monkey. Vexing Dodger archetype. Must be a Monkey Goblin for this to work. Use your high Climb and Acrobatics to pester enemies, use dirty tricks to entangle and blind, once you get greater dirty trick you'll really be a thorn on the side of one enemy.

7. The Mongoose. Scroll Scoundrel Rogue. Get Dervish Dance or Fencing Grace and work your way up to the Circling Mongoose feat. Circling Mongoose lets you take 5 before each attack you made against an enemy when full attacking. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity. After this movement the enemy is considered flanked if you hit him with your attack, regardless of your party's positioning, so that grants you sneak attack. Now, here's the beauty... if the enemy misses his attack, thanks to the Scroll Scoundrel's Elusive Gambit, the enemy is considered flat-footed too! So you could get an enemy flat-footed and flanked by yourself as you full-attack without losing any iteratives. If you want the ultra cheese, get Unarmed Combat Training and Pather Style/Panther Claw to make a retaliative attack each time the enemy tries to hit you with an attack of opportunity as you use Circling Mongoose.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I have a player who wants to do this as well, purely to be able to call the team Rogue Squadron.

speaking of which has anyone mentioned Stealth Synergy yet


Lamontius wrote:

Vexing Dodger

Counterfeit Mage
Underground Chemist
Swashbuckler (Rogue Archetype, not the ACG class)
Scout
Carnivalist
Knife Master
Scroll Scoundrel
Thug

all of these are interesting archetypes that add a lot to the rogue class, regardless of whether or not I think what you are doing is a good idea, OP

Never forget the Makeshift Scrapper and the Sczarni Swindler.


Actually this is about the only type of campaign where the rogue will not be outclassed. Since everyone is playing a rogue than all the characters will be about the same power level. In order for this to work you will need to tailor the campaign towards more skill and social based challenges instead of raw combat. The game is going to resemble oceans eleven rather than the typical action movie.

The Charlatan archetype would make a good face, Counterfeit Mage will be able to add some magic, Knife Master or Swashbuckler(Archetype not class) will add some needed combat ability. Probably also want either a standard rogue or a Burglar, or Acrobat.

All characters should take the feat Gang Up which requires combat expertise. Combat when it occurs is either going to be short and quick or the party is going to have to run away.


If prc's are allowed I really like the flavor of the evangalist of Cayden Cailean. (The one with the drinking buddy)

Arcane trickster is rogueish but requires multi classing.

From the paths of prestige consider:
Daggermark poisoner
Sleepless detective


Popping in once more before I leave for the day.

Here's a question: since rogues have some good teamwork feats available to them, should I allow them at certain levels (1, 5, 10, 15, 20 - they'll probably end the campaign between 5-10) to grab a Teamwork Feat as a bonus feat each? Representing guild training.


I appreciate the flavour of a thieves' guild campaign. Having only characters with "Rogue" on their character sheet as part of it is not something I would do, though. There are a number of archetypes - Mastermind or Infiltrator Investigator, Cleaner Slayer for example - that work really well as part of a thieves' guild but are not Rogues.


Vital striking a bomb : legal?
I thought the only 1d6 of the bomb was base damage and the rest doesn't crit for being bonus damage.
Am I Wrong? (Haven't played an alchemist)


Inlaa wrote:

Popping in once more before I leave for the day.

Here's a question: since rogues have some good teamwork feats available to them, should I allow them at certain levels (1, 5, 10, 15, 20 - they'll probably end the campaign between 5-10) to grab a Teamwork Feat as a bonus feat each? Representing guild training.

Why not go more out there? Give them all the Solo Tactics feature from Inquisitors for those teamwork feats you grant for free, so they have a "specialty". Then watch them all pick Wild Flanking.


Worth mentioning that, if you want to make your "casters" Counterfeit Mages, you'll need to basically throw WBL out the window since a ton of their wealth is going to end up going into scrolls and wands.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tcho Tcho wrote:
Vital striking a bomb : legal?

No, as using bombs is a separate standard action from vital strike.

Sovereign Court

Rogue-only campaign would be a blast. I'd pick Rogue pirate archetype... (Duh!) :) I'd make that rogue STR+DEX based and make sure he can take Improved Bull Rush feat. That one jives well with the Rogue pirate's Swinging Reposition ability. Just make sure you throw a few ships in that campaign, LOL! I currently play a lying sack of #$%^ rogue with both the Charlatan and Bandit archetypes... I'm having fun. Not sure about the GM though... :P

There's a new rogue archetype in the melee toolbox... specialized in improvised weapons and stuff. check it out.

Sovereign Court

High ac, every rogue should carry bottled lightning in the event something comes down the pike that is too hard to hit. Or something similar which breaches armor - wand of true strike, rogue talent minor magic acid splash, or firearms.

Feat taxes - shadow strike / I ran into blur, concealment etc, a single time in PFS over 14 levels. So its simply a matter of how much prevention can you afford. If you avoid the feat tax, you should consider faerie fire...until SR comes into play then go headband of ninjitsu.

Team rogue played it several times, love it.


Inlaa wrote:

I'm tinkering with campaign ideas for the next game I run and one thing that came to mind is an all Rogue party. The problem is the system mastery varies pretty broadly between my players, so while I can just point them to the best player and say "take his advice," I want some ideas on very basic, easily-adjustable Rogue builds that are fun and varied.

The idea is they'll ONLY be allowed to take levels in Rogue. Period. Maybe a prestige class will be allowed. I want these characters to all be Rogues or Rogue archetypes; no Ninjas but Ninja Tricks are allowed.

So, what are...

A) good builds that aren't very complex that newer players could adjust
B) archetypes that when combined can cover every role a party needs
C) ways to do so using UMD and such since archetypes probably can't cover ever need because Rogue

...and how should I scale the challenge rating of the encounters they face? I plan for this to be a largely political game but with nasty combats.

You are going to have to scale some of the encounters down. I am in a party with a group of no magical members, and the difference is very noticeable.

Since they are new players you will have to adjust even more or play the battles down so the enemies dont fight at full potential.

Sovereign Court

Addn Straight rogue archetypes
Skulking Slayer (half orc) with surprise follow through feat/talent.
Rake - facilitates the intimidate shatter defense build.

Grand Lodge

I would do a few things, to help:

1) Remove racial restrictions on Rogue archetypes, Sneak Attack feats, and Rogue Talents.

2) Give them a higher Point Buy. Rogues are very MAD.

Liberty's Edge

It may be worth waiting for Pathfinder Unchained. It comes out next month and will have some new (and hopefully improved) options for the Rogue.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Midnighter wrote:
It may be worth waiting for Pathfinder Unchained. It comes out next month and will have some new (and hopefully improved) options for the Rogue.

Don't wait! build now with a fine print rebuild option when Unchained comes out! :)

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

A Half-Orc Rogue, with Nature Soul/Animal Ally, and Beast Rider, for the best Stegosaurus riding Rogue of them all!


blackbloodtroll wrote:
A Half-Orc Rogue, with Nature Soul/Animal Ally, and Beast Rider, for the best Stegosaurus riding Rogue of them all!

I now have a fantastic and persistent mental image of this:

Half Orc rogue riding a Stegosaurus. The stegosaurus has a black robber-style mask tied around it's head. The rider shouts at his mount, "SNEAK STOMPY, SNEAK!". Chaos ensues.

Grand Lodge

Bah.

All Rogues have to be sneaky, lying, thieves, the same way all Paladins have to be self-rightious, holier-than-thou douche-bags.

Hint: They don't.


Tcho Tcho wrote:

Vital striking a bomb : legal?

I thought the only 1d6 of the bomb was base damage and the rest doesn't crit for being bonus damage.
Am I Wrong? (Haven't played an alchemist)

The rogue's base damage is different from the alchemist's bomb. Instead of being 1d6 and then increased the bombs damage is assigned as equal to the rogue's sneak attack damage.

Since we have an FAQ about using the alchemist bombs with vital strike allowing them I don't see why you couldn't use the rogue's bombs with vital strike.

I have two threads about it up in the rules forum if you care to look for them.

Sovereign Court

Correct the second story guys need a good distraction. Cue Stegy Mount

Scarab Sages

3 people marked this as a favorite.

So... this isn't an April fool's thread?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
A Half-Orc Rogue, with Nature Soul/Animal Ally, and Beast Rider, for the best Stegosaurus riding Rogue of them all!

This reminds me... with the advent of the Mauler Familiar archetype, the Carnivalist Rogue actually might have a place in this game.

Sovereign Court

Rogue Carnivalist with sneak attacking pseudodragon mauler

1 to 50 of 67 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / All Rogue Party All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.