How to deal with dominating ranged char in a group as DM?


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The Exchange

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Warp wood. Get a druid to warp wood his bow(stealth in bushes as an earth elemental), but put a scroll of warp wood in the druid's treasure so the sorc can umd the mess later. Druid prepares to duck underground after warp wood is done. Druid then spends his time as an earth elemental and uses spring attack, and/or spending full round summoning under ground, popping up, to throw the augmented, superior summons of 1d3+1 anklyosaurus, dire crocs, who get to either attempt to stun him/grapple him.

The druid uses tremorsense to track the location of the party.

Make them explore an underwater cavern. Underwater combat is horrible for archers, since each 5 ft you take a -2 penalty to hit.

Get a mad scientist to unleash a wickerman on the town, and get party to deal with the results.

And yes, swarms.

DR taken care by clustered shots..


Roshan wrote:

Start making use of battlefield control spells. Fog cloud, wind wall, wall of force, etc to break up his line of effect. Drop an entangle followed by a fog cloud to lock him down.

Try have them fight a squad of soldiers, the ones in front with tower shields using the ability to grand full cover and guys with bows or spellcasters behind laying down some damage.

Thanks a lot.

but one think irks me on tower shields:

One of the nations indeed utilizes the Shield Wall Teamwork Feat in Phalanx Formation, which is AFAIK the only way to make this work.

because regulary

As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn.
So the wielder of the Tower Shield cannot attack.

When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only.

By that part it seems that even if you have 5 people with tower shields forming a wall, anything behind them is fair game to get targeted.
I know thats beyond logic, but ruleswise, they would only get soft cover behind, and improved precise shot ignores that.

So by RAW, even if you have a formation like that, someone can just shoot through the shield wall and pick off the juicy targets behind.

Covering Defense Feat also only adds to the AC of allies behind, and needs the total defense action which requires a standard action, and means you can't use the standard action to get total cover from the tower shield(despite trying to defend yourself).
RAW is absolute garbage there but I would like to not get any rules lawyering if possible.
But with Saving Shield for another +2 it could work out somewhat fine too.

But the total cover is, i think, only possible via shield wall teamwork feat. Problem with that is as it's that nations signature tactic, i don't want to overuse it too much on other encounters, as depending on some of the groups actions, there may be war looming anyway.


Just a Mort wrote:

Warp wood. Get a druid to warp wood his bow(stealth in bushes as an earth elemental), but put a scroll of warp wood in the druid's treasure so the sorc can umd the mess later. Druid prepares to duck underground after warp wood is done. Druid then spends his time as an earth elemental and uses spring attack, and/or spending full round summoning under ground, popping up, to throw the augmented, superior summons of 1d3+1 anklyosaurus, dire crocs, who get to either attempt to stun him/grapple him.

The druid uses tremorsense to track the location of the party.

Make them explore an underwater cavern. Underwater combat is horrible for archers, since each 5 ft you take a -2 penalty to hit.

Get a mad scientist to unleash a wickerman on the town, and get party to deal with the results.

And yes, swarms.

DR taken care by clustered shots..

I am so sending that druid after the party ^_^

Matter of fact, they did have a falling out with a druid before. Quite reasonable that they would clash sooner or later, currently he's tracking them but that setup of yours is a great one especially since he knows the party's strenghts.

As for underwater, they are all terrible underwater. As in, the players get all confused. Tried that twice, both times almost got them wiped by a weak encounter. Gonna be careful in the future but maybe will give it another try.

Aye, Wickerman has Hardness, very nice. Need to look up more stuff with hardness.

thanks a lot.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

And for a melee fighter, it could be 20-30 HP. Clustered Shots lets you pool your attacks and avoid that. There may be a melee counterpart, but if there is, I see it used much less—probably because it's less of a "must-have".

My point is that DR is meaningless in the aim of balancing encounters. If anything, you'll just make the archer more effective by contrast.

Pummeling Style is the only melee variant, and it is quite good for TWF'ers (the unarmed ones that can use it at least) for the same reasons that Clustered Shots is good for archers. People talk more about Pummeling Charge, though.

Sovereign Court

Deal with him the same way my sorcerer would, a level 2 spell: Blindness/Deafness.

Deeper Darkness is level 3.

Mirror Image is level 2.

Grease.... LOL


Flent wrote:

Grease.... LOL

If he's an archer, and a ranger at that, Grease is sort of a wasted action as that ranger will probably have Reflex as his best save.

Using concealment spells are good, just don't let them find Goz Masks. lol

The Exchange

The druids combat turn will look like this:

Round 1:
Std action: Warp wood
move action: earth glide into earth, move towards party

Round 2: full round action underground summon natures ally whatever

Roumd 3:
std action:move out of ground
Free action: drop summons
Move action:earth glide into ground.

Then repeat round 2 and 3. The counter is if someone manages to get the druid out of ground, ie. Sorc readies to cast black tentacles and catches druid in it, and druid gets grappled. Or someone lands a tanglefoot bag and sticks him to the ground.

If they pissed a druid off, you can send shire stones after them.

Stick them in 30 x 30 ft room with a flame oracle with gaze of flames revelation. Give said oracle a potion of enlarge person and a reach weapon and combat reflexes. Cast obscuring mist using smoke sticks as alchemical power components(so random fireballs won't mess things up, hopefully barbarian does not have spell sunder). Have a good whackdown.


Clarification:When I said an inquisitors's main thing is not damage, I was saying he is not built for damage like the full BAB classes are. I am not saying damage is not something they are built to do.


B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:


Well, if I lived in a world where the majority of things that I will fight are humans (like we do), why wouldn't my character decide to focus on killing them versus Orcs which are imaginary in your world? It's like asking if the US Air Force has a dragon contingency plan.

Aye. The question is just if the rules designed were aimed at such a world.

If i have a world of ultra high density where every single creature has Hardness 15, would that also mean i should run ranged damage RAW?
Or a world in which each and every spell is maximized and heightened by 5 levels on casting? Magic and saves completely unchanged in any way?
Here i took diversity from the variation on enemies, and adjusted something.
Besides lets reformulate that premise.
Let there be a world WITH dragons. The US Air Force HAS a dragon contingency plan. The US Senate approved a budget that includes money for a dragon contingency plan.
Now remove the dragons from the world. Should the budget still include money for the dragon contingency plan?
If the world changes, things need to adapt.
if RAW does not fit the world, then RAI trumps it in my eyes.

B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:


I think in game targeting of characters when an enemy wouldn't necessarily know of their reputation or their abilities (no scrying, no visible religious symbols, etc) seems really cheesy, and really does tend to further shine the spotlight on that character and teach them how to overcome your tactics. I also don't like antagonistic GMing, where a GM's mindset is focused on shutting down players rather than telling a story.

Oh, I am not antagonistic, as said, he gets plenty of time to shine. Also, they are in a world that has nations and organizations. Plenty of smart people, and by level 10 they rubbed quite a number of them the wrong way. Those people remember, those people know about them, they have a reputation(and 2 countries with a price on their head, one of those unjustified). So aye, it's reasonable to assume that every now and then they will run into an encounter that knows what it's up against and took steps to prepare.

I like telling my story, why thank you, I took a great effort of crafting the world, the inhabitants, their mannerisms, a overarching plot, a hidden plot in motion, side quests, you name it. But the most important thing is that EVERYBODY at the table is enjoying themselves.
And that means everybody should feel equally important in roleplay-scenarios as well as in combat.

B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:


I do understand that it can be frustrating when a PC can make most encounters trivial and that other players might not shine in battle. Lots of builds/classes have a tough time shining in combat (monks, rogues, investigators, etc.).

Aye, but that just means more work to sometimes craft encounters that LET them shine. As you said, it's though, but not impossible.

Most of the time, I let things run their course. Whoever does well, does well. But now and then I also want those players who don't usually win MVP in a combat to feel they have an important contribution to make beyond buffing people.

B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:


What I don't think I would have done is given the party the archaeologist NPC. Giving a group of 5 players (I could see doing it for a group of 3 players) an extra character that outshines them in all the Knowledges and Disable Device checks removes an arena in which actual players could have shined, and let them focus nearly all on combat, which will nearly always have a consistent DPS leader (if it wasn't the ranger it would be the barbarian probably).

The NPC did not join them until about 2 levels ago(APL 8). It is always 3 Levels behind them, and featwise and spellwise specifically gimped.

If by Level 8 they decided not to pick up on a knowledge, they won't.
But for the veterans especially it's very hard not to use meta-knowledge intuitively(not consciously doing something, but just not properly thinking about wether their character knows as well).
As for disable device, they had nobody capable of it. At all. Sure I can let someone run into the first deadly trap and tell them to bring a character capable of finding and disarming traps for the next session but thats also a dick move.
Now they have a chance at it, but it's not a given it works. Also, they have to make sure that character stays alive and in their guard. So aye, your mileage may vary, but now they have a valid source for knowledges they did not pick up, I can use traps without feeling antagonistic, and a person they need to keep save(but who is not specifically targetted to kill). They focused on combat all along, that NPC just came along a whole lot after...it did not cause the problem, it just tried to fix some others.

B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:


I prefer having players build their PCs together and coming up with ways that they as a party can fill each of the roles (social, knowledge, traps, ranged combat, melee combat, healing, arcane magic, divine magic, etc). It's important to remember a lack of non-ranged combat can really shut down a party against flying/climbing foes (all PCs who can use a bow should carry one), which limits what a GM can throw at the party.

Aye, I prefer that too. Also told them to communicate and make sure they get their roles filled. All the same, each one was selfish enough to stick with their preference, having specific characters in mind and wanting to try them.

Of course I could have recklessly abused that. Use deadly traps they can't detect. Don't give them any time to heal up with wands of cure light wounds between battles, force severe consequences on bad social checks. But that would only have made them miserable, so I tried to work around that. Sure I could have refused to DM for the party and make someone else do it, but I accepted and thats what i have to work with.


@ Wraithstrike

What is it that you're try to do for the OP here? If I were to make a list of the top ten possibilities, helping with the stated problem would not be on the list.

@ Just a Mort

Good call on the Druid.


It was more of a sarcastic metaphore for the fact that with suitable spell knowledge, any 9 level caster can shut down a martial at most levels over 5. (With some exeptions. Curse you spell eater!)

I'll have some specific suggestions later.

Grand Lodge

Also, creating other situations for the other players to shine is good too.

I mean, somebody was going to end up the main damage dealer.

Find ways for everyone to shine, in their own unique way.


galahad2112 wrote:

@ Wraithstrike

What is it that you're try to do for the OP here? If I were to make a list of the top ten possibilities, helping with the stated problem would not be on the list.

@ Just a Mort

Good call on the Druid.

Go back and read my posts. If you can't figure it out I will explain in detail the relevance of my posts. I really don't want have to do that however.


wraithstrike wrote:

It is still a nerf, the fact that the campaign is set up well for that class does not change that. Just like if someone goes with paladins and and I power down smites. A nerf is simply powering down a class, and yes I get your point that your reduction to the class may balance out the advantage it has.

With that aside this is a full BAB class so it is likely going to be hitting anyway, and it is an archer. Anything you do will to oppose him on every combat will be noticed, and unless you have a houserule it will also affect archers that the party faces.

What I don't get is why the other players are not getting to do anything. Assuming you are not just using one monster the barbarian should be able to run up and attack someone.

And i maintain that it was actually not a nerf, but a buff. Seeing how he basically gets 12 different favored enemies rolled into 1 package, albeit at half strenght.

If it was a nerf, he could have choosen the un-nerfed version all the same. Only my Orcs are called different and look like humans. And my gnolls are called different and look like humans, etc...

Naturally it also affects NPC Rangers.

Also he is not just more likely to hit, he also does more damage and has better perception against them, as key points.

The other players do get something to do, but even so, the barbarian(to stick with example) needs a close-combat encounter to do something.
Realistically speaking 80 feet is nothing, and any encounter that has obstacles or terrain features like trees or walls will limit the charging options further unless people go out of their way to stand in the open.
With no terrain features, the distance of engagement will start larger, meaning he needs to get there in the first place(while the ranger already starts sniping albeit at a lower to-hit for range).

wraithstrike wrote:


But let's explore the opening statement.
OP wrote:

That, in itself, would not be such a problem, but from Monk, Inquisitor, Sorcerer and Barbarian, only the Barbarian can consistently match the raw damage output, and definitely not the range.

Monks are not going to be able to match the output of most damage dealers unless the player has high system mastery. They are one of the weaker classes in the game. He can probably do more damage by being an unarmed (insert other melee class). Casters are not meant to do damage. I am not saying they can't, but it takes up most of their resources to do so. If the sorcerer is trying to do damage he needs to change classes also. The inquisitor can do a lot of damage after several buffs, but his main thing is not damage either. He is less combat, and more utility than a ranger is. The problem to me assuming this statement sums up your problem is people trying to do things with characters that dont fit the mold. It also does not help that the inquisitor is using a crossbow. If the inquisitor is concerned about damage allow him to rebuild because bringing the ranger's damage down will not bring the inquisitor's up, or you can give the crossbow a boost.

Monks and barbarians can take a feat to ignore difficult terrain when they charge. It is dragon style.

Dragon Style

The question here is this also.
Do you want a game where your choices really matter aka "If you choose a weaker option you have to deal with it".

OR

Choices should be more equal AKA "Crossbow users should complete with two-handers and ranged weapons even if that was not the intent"

aye, it was ill-worded, i give you that. Let me rephrase that.

Rephrase wrote:


That, in itself, would not be such a problem, but from Monk, Inquisitor, Sorcerer and Barbarian, none of them can consistently contribute as much to the outcome of a encounter as the ranger

I am aware a caster-type is usually better as a controller(with some blasting just for fun and rolling those d6 when there's nothing else to do), same as with the monk utility, or inquisitor role.

The point is, almost all "normal" encounters of different location, composition, and environmental effects, the one consistent factor is the ranger.
Long-Range encounter? Ranger and Sorcerer get to do something, Inquisitor limited, it's over before Monk and Barbarian are in range.
Close-Range ambush? Ranger, Barbarian and Monk deal with it, Inquisitor and Sorcerer try to stay alive.
Damage-Resistant Enemy? Ranger and Monk deal with it consistently, Inquisitor average, Barbarian and Sorcerer depends on rolls(get saves to fail, roll good on damage).
High-Hit-Point Enemys? Ranger, Barbarian and Sorcerer can deal with it, Monk and Inquisitor get left behind.
High AC? Due to nature of iteratives and rapid+manyshot, the Ranger shines here in damage, with inquisitor and sorcerer being able to disable, monk and barbarian struggle for damage output and successful hits respectively.
High Saves? Ranger, Barbarian and Monk can work with that, Inquisitor moderately, Sorcerer not so well.
Need to subdue someone? Ranger and Monk do well, Inquisitor and Sorcerer depend on Saves, Barbarian moderate at best.
I could continue listing stuff.

As for your final question: If I would not be opposed to just houseruling away, I would not be here. Houserules have their place, but too many for the sake of perceived corrections tend to break balance in other places.

So sure, choice and consequence. It just feels as if ranged builds get tons of useful feat and synergy love in pathfinder with no real weakness to compensate, except that their weapon is more easily sundered.

I am well aware that different classes shine at different aspects of the game, but as mentioned before, with a combat-heavy system like pathfinder, I also want all of them to feel that they have an important contribution to make during combat.
You could play a social face+skill monkey with skill focus on perform(juggling) and have a blast during roleplay. But if that character, during combat, can't hit, can't cast, can't damage, then those parts will get boring fast.
Thats why I want to provide them with challenges and encounters in which EVERYBODY has to bring their abilities and skills to the table.
And one point to achieve that is to limit the effectiveness of their FOOR, which is the ranger.
The Ranger dumped Charisma and Int to get his points for Dex and Wisdom, does that mean he gets penalized during social interactions? Sure, choice and consequence. Does he STILL get to roleplay, to be involved with the party in non-combat sequences?
Yes, he gets to interact with people all the same, he gets his screen time off the battlemap, too.
does he get to talk things over with others as a player, for example during planning something, despite his character not being smart enough to follow those ideas?
yes. someone else may come up with it, after all, and limiting player input because his character is a bit stupid and unsocial does not account for that.
So yeah, he's definitely built for the battlefield, but he also gets his time during story hour and when they try to solve a riddle in the town.
All the same, the others may not be built for the battlefield to the same extent but should also get their time during encounters, and feel they are important there, too.


Just a Mort wrote:

The druids combat turn will look like this:

Round 1:
Std action: Warp wood
move action: earth glide into earth, move towards party

Round 2: full round action underground summon natures ally whatever

Roumd 3:
std action:move out of ground
Free action: drop summons
Move action:earth glide into ground.

Then repeat round 2 and 3. The counter is if someone manages to get the druid out of ground, ie. Sorc readies to cast black tentacles and catches druid in it, and druid gets grappled. Or someone lands a tanglefoot bag and sticks him to the ground.

If they pissed a druid off, you can send shire stones after them.

Stick them in 30 x 30 ft room with a flame oracle with gaze of flames revelation. Give said oracle a potion of enlarge person and a reach weapon and combat reflexes. Cast obscuring mist using smoke sticks as alchemical power components(so random fireballs won't mess things up, hopefully barbarian does not have spell sunder). Have a good whackdown.

aye, those two will be memorable.

Thanks a lot again for specific and usable suggestions! Will definitely make good use of them!

As mentioned, it's just now and then I need something that breaks up their routine, and those 2 encounters will be great for just that.

Just need to get a proper lead-in for the oracle...incidentally, they have a bounty on their head in a theocratic nation, so that may well be quite easy to set up.

The Exchange

Oh and if the party retreats out of the room/refuses to engage the oracle in the smoke cloud, have the oracle summon some fire elementals on them/toss fireballs at them/walk up to them while getting more smokesticked mist going. If the oracle is high enough level, you can skip enlarge person potion, use righteous might instead. Freedom of movement will stop black tentacles, but I suggest you do it only for the oracle and not the druid, since to actually catch the druid you probably need to grapple him, and FOM would take it out of the window, resulting in a very irritated party(They won't actually be able to kill the druid if he wants to get away - great for recurring villain but will irritate the party no end). For the oracle ideally you want them to go toe to toe with him and get a good smackdown going.

Optimal oracle curses: Deaf, Wasting, Legalistic

Not so optimal: Haunted (in case of disarm attempts), Lame (in case you want cinder dance), tongues (no forbid action spells)

Bad curses: Burned (smacking the crap out of them, remember), Wolf scarred face (casting is a pain), Wrecker (nope, you don't want to mess up any of their weapons, + you can't wield weapons/wear armor)

"I prefer having players build their PCs together and coming up with ways that they as a party can fill each of the roles (social, knowledge, traps, ranged combat, melee combat, healing, arcane magic, divine magic, etc). It's important to remember a lack of non-ranged combat can really shut down a party against flying/climbing foes (all PCs who can use a bow should carry one), which limits what a GM can throw at the party. "

With that quote above, I've tried explaining to people that many times, but generally people I know will just play whatever that suits their fancy (Generally beatsticks, and more beatsticks because they find it easier to play and think its more heroic/stylish). I think one of the reasons is that magic (esp prepared casters) feels intimidating to them (too many options, too many spells).

Intellectually I can understand that, but for me, I would roll up whatever the party needed, even more so in a long term campaign, unless the party keeps changing (in which there would be no point since I wouldn't know what gaps to fill, then I would just play whatever I wanted since it would make no difference). Well..I wouldn't play a rogue but could be persuaded to dip rogue for trapfinding.

And also maybe too much literature featured, where this guy with a sword kicks @ss all by himself. And oh, about the thinking that casters are supposed to be the fighters personal buffbots and provide them with free fly, spider climb, airwalk etc. (I know a barbarian who even refused to pay for his own CLW wand). Apologize for the derail, but it's a personal sore point with me.


Just a Mort wrote:

Oh and if the party retreats out of the room/refuses to engage the oracle in the smoke cloud, have the oracle summon some fire elementals on them/toss fireballs at them/walk up to them while getting more smokesticked mist going.

"I prefer having players build their PCs together and coming up with ways that they as a party can fill each of the roles (social, knowledge, traps, ranged combat, melee combat, healing, arcane magic, divine magic, etc). It's important to remember a lack of non-ranged combat can really shut down a party against flying/climbing foes (all PCs who can use a bow should carry one), which limits what a GM can throw at the party. "

With that quote above, I've tried explaining to people that many times, but generally people I know will just play whatever that suits their fancy (Generally beatsticks, and more beatsticks because they find it easier to play). I think one of the reasons is that magic (esp prepared casters) feels intimidating to them (too many options, too many spells).

Intellectually I can understand that, but for me, I would roll up whatever the party needed, even more so in a long term campaign, unless the party keeps changing (in which there would be no point since I wouldn't know what gaps to fill, then I would just play whatever I wanted since it would make no difference). Well..I wouldn't play a rogue but could be persuaded to dip rogue for trapfinding.

And also maybe too much literature featured, where this guy with a sword kicks the @ss all by himself. And oh, about the thinking that casters are supposed to be the fighters personal buffbots and provide them with free fly, spider climb, etc. (I know a barbarian who even refused to pay for his own CLW wand). Apologize for the derail, but it's a personal sore point with me.

Does this website feature a "friend request" option? I don't come by often but I'm officially your fan.

As for the party retreating, I was thinking more along the lines of the doors getting slam shut. That Oracle didn't travel alone, after all, and while he gets his hands dirty himself his mooks don't have to wait in camp. They can close the gate and bar it. If the oracle wins, well, they'll be taken alive and brought in to face justice(they did get the bounty for a severe crime, after all).
Bonus points for the mooks for having a status up and running and pouring oil into the locked room via a air vent if they defeat the oracle. If the party doesn't fool around, the oil will only become ignited when they are about to bash the door in and escape, but makes for a nice tense atmosphere and cinematic escape scene.
Also, he knows of them, so he will make sure a dimensional lock is in place-

And I am so glad you understand my situation. They play just what they feel like with no real regard for what would be needed. I would also prefer to just roll up whatever the party was missing. I would only be reluctant to be the only divine caster in such a setup, fearing I'll just get seen as a walking health dispenser. Heck, i would even play a rogue, happily. Being a skill monkey is too much fun for me.

And yeah, your last paragraph was so...familiar. When the audio background of the first evening consisted of Conan OST+similar, i kind of knew what i was getting into. :D


I am not sure if anyone has pointed this out from the original post, but the easiest way to make an anti-archer is to have a high AC character with the feat Deflect Arrows. I am not sure how much it will effect the rest of the party, but having some heavy armored, melee fighter with a one handed weapon and a buckler, for instance, which means they have an open hand for deflecting. Whether or not this adds too much of a challenge for the rest of the party at the same time, but it at least creates an enemy that the archer will have a hard time dealing damage to someone they can not hit and can not bypass some of their AC. Of course, this will only come in to effect when he gains Pinpoint Targeting, which he should.

The Exchange

Don't forget power attack feat on the oracle, but you may wish to think on who you use PA on, as oracles only have 3/4 BAB at the end of the day. If you really wanted it that way, the mooks could even flood the room with oil and set it on fire while the oracle and them are still fighting.

One of the possible revelations:

Molten Skin (Ex): You gain resist fire 5. This resistance increases to 10 at 5th level and 20 at 11th level. At 17th level, you gain immunity to fire.

Resist energy is also on the flame oracle's mystery spell list. At level 11 - that would be 30 fire resist. 3 jars of liquid ice consumed in casting of resist energy would put fire resist up to 36. It would take a pretty big fire to actually bother the oracle. Hell you could probably drop a fireball on yourself (no metamagics) and come out unscathed...


Kaiin Retsu wrote:
I am not sure if anyone has pointed this out from the original post, but the easiest way to make an anti-archer is to have a high AC character with the feat Deflect Arrows. I am not sure how much it will effect the rest of the party, but having some heavy armored, melee fighter with a one handed weapon and a buckler, for instance, which means they have an open hand for deflecting. Whether or not this adds too much of a challenge for the rest of the party at the same time, but it at least creates an enemy that the archer will have a hard time dealing damage to someone they can not hit and can not bypass some of their AC. Of course, this will only come in to effect when he gains Pinpoint Targeting, which he should.

If you want high AC and arrow deflection, for most classes it would be better to aim at Missile Shield, which requires shield focus and allows a larger shield to be used.

The problem is that while those deflect feats negate manyshot, they do nothing against rapid shot. So with haste, he still has 2 shots left at his highest iterative after the first got deflected, while the other characters only have 1 at their highest iterative. Assuming the lower iteratives fail, thats still 2 hits for the ranger and 1 for the other chars. It DOES negate two hits courtesy of manyshot always being on the first attack, so it helps, but it's not optimal. But thanks for bringing it up!


Ok. here is a fun thing you could use. Monk (manouver Master), Lorewarden. 11 levels of monk, rest lorewarden. Dimensial assault feats, deflect arrows, and focus on dirty trick and trip\ki throw. DDoor into the middle of the part, dirty trick blind him on the first round, disarm him, then trip and ki throw him away from the bow. Repeat with other PC's if needed. Or just hold the bow when you drop it, then d door away. I have the exact build that I played through PFS and it really shines at battlefield control. Ridiculous saves so the sorcerer has to get lucky. Anyone who ends up in melee with him gets blinded. He does not even need to do dameage, just scare them.


Just a Mort wrote:

Don't forget power attack feat on the oracle, but you may wish to think on who you use PA on, as oracles only have 3/4 BAB at the end of the day. If you really wanted it that way, the mooks could even flood the room with oil and set it on fire while the oracle and them are still fighting.

One of the possible revelations:

Molten Skin (Ex): You gain resist fire 5. This resistance increases to 10 at 5th level and 20 at 11th level. At 17th level, you gain immunity to fire.

Resist energy is also on the flame oracle's mystery spell list. At level 11 - that would be 30 fire resist. I doubt a small fire would bother your oracle anyway.

True that, but I feel they may feel too intimitated and try fleeing only to get cut down.

Or, worse yet, someone may get into negatives during the battle and then while dying burn to death when the objective was to bring them in alive, not a TPK.
I know the oracle won't be bothered by a little fire but my players may be :) In situations like these, they would tend to run around like headless chickens instead of weighing their actions and deciding sensibly.

Na, better show the fire off as "plan B" and let them burn for a round or two before letting them escape, maybe start flooding it into the room earlier though for some forshadowing(some oily substance just splashed on you from above. reeks like lamp oil). If THEY set it ablaze it's their own fault.

The Exchange

12 levels of monk for abundant step. Will probably need some retraining to get dimensional agility as soon as possible. Dimensional agility will only let you get one attack, in which can be a disarm attempt of his bow. Watch out for locked gauntlets though! Oh and for monks, mage armor is your friend. If trip is being used, try to get combat reflexes, improved trip/greater if possible and vicious stomp.

With regards to dirty trick, in Bastards of Golarion, there's a trick called dirty trick master..and it's down right sick evil. Maybe too sick evil to unleash.

Its so nasty it's banned in PFS.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat


Yeah, typically lamp oil burns at 1d3 per round (I think). If they keep flooding it though, I might up the die size each round (d4,d6,d8,etc.) just to add to the "panic!" factor. Also, if it's just the number on the die, it's really not all that much damage, but it FEELS frightening.


@ Wraithstrike

I saw a good bit of "It's a NERF!!!!11!" posts, then something saying that the other players are fundamentally underpowered (in a damage output sense), then a post that boiled down to giving the option of "you made your bed now lay in it" or "Each unique snowflake should be as rampant-death-machine powerful as the DPR-focused Ranger (even though that's NOT how it's supposed to be!)"

Maybe I'm taking this out of context, though. I've been wrong in the past, and I know that sometimes I can be stubborn and belligerent with the best (or worst) of them, so if I'm in the wrong, I do apologize.

But just so we're clear: What IS your advice for the OP?


Just for the record: Going to bed now and will be gone for a few days on a family visit for easter.

I WILL be back and read what was posted, but in the next few days I will not be around to respond.

Thanks again to everybody that contributed so far.


I think there are many excellent ideas already in this thread. Mix and match them to create a variety of responses and to keep any single tactic from getting overused (or at least feeling that way).

Given you are a veteran GM with a veteran player running the archer I'd feel inclined to throw a couple surprises his way and the group for that matter. Makes the veterans stop and go "oh oh" and gets the newbies used to the idea that things aren't always going to be "by and from 'the book'", a good precedent to establish I feel.

Run into a caster who uses a variant Ray of Enfeeblement, a "Ray of Clumsiness" if you will, that instead of applying strength penalties deals dexterity penalties.

Similarly invent a variant undead Shadow that deals Dex damage rather than Str.

Ray of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue, Waves of Exhaustion all apply Str and Dex penalties (via the creating condition of either Fatigue or Exhaustion respectively).

To all those suggesting or thinking of hammering the archer with Fickle Winds be aware the first thing my Loremaster would due if he had that Ranger as a companion who was getting regularly neutered by Fickle Winds would be to start having a Heightened Fickle Winds memorized to use on the group ... This spell has no effect within the area of a higher-level wind or weather spell. Not to mention a Ring of Counterspells which my Archer type would've made a high priority if such spells regularly caused me difficulties.

Scarab Sages

MordredofFairy wrote:
lots of stuff

I'm sorry if I came off very confrontational about this. I've been on the other side of this more than once (once was with a ranger no less, where I covered the traps, knowledges, and ranged roles), with a GM who has stated he doesn't feel he's doing his job if he hasn't killed off each of the starting PCs by the end of a campaign or gets disappointed if a PC doesn't go unconscious at least once a battle.

In that situation it was interesting how much knowledge an isolated band of mountain giants had about us (especially when we were very careful not to leave survivors). It left a bad taste in my mouth and led to a TPK as the rest of the group save the barbarian (who always beat me on Damage), weren't very optimized and unable to handle the encounter once my PC went down.

Just a Mort wrote:

With that quote above, I've tried explaining to people that many times, but generally people I know will just play whatever that suits their fancy (Generally beatsticks, and more beatsticks because they find it easier to play and think its more heroic/stylish). I think one of the reasons is that magic (esp prepared casters) feels intimidating to them (too many options, too many spells).

Intellectually I can understand that, but for me, I would roll up whatever the party needed, even more so in a long term campaign, unless the party keeps changing (in which there would be no point since I wouldn't know what gaps to fill, then I would just play whatever I wanted since it would make no difference). Well..I wouldn't play a rogue but could be persuaded to dip rogue for trapfinding.

And also maybe too much literature featured, where this guy with a sword kicks @ss all by himself. And oh, about the thinking that casters are supposed to be the fighters personal buffbots and provide them with free fly, spider climb, airwalk etc. (I know a barbarian who even refused to pay for his own CLW wand). Apologize for the derail, but it's a personal sore point with me.

Its too late now, but I think this is where I would have leaned on the Veteran Players a bit harder. I know I have decent system mastery, so I tend to draw up my characters last too, doing my best to cover the missing roles. Honestly, the challenge of building a compelling character around the groups limitations is pretty enjoyable. But it does mean I never get to be the beat stick. Even when I change tables, it seems the most common roles people don't like is trapfinding, knowledges, or ranged.

You don't ever have to play a rogue again Just a Mort. Please try one of the many better options (archaeologist bard, urban ranger, slayer, sanctified slayer inquisitor, investigator, seeker (oracle or sorcerer), etc. But who knows, maybe Pathfinder Unchained will make it so you actually want to play a rogue again.


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Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:


It's like asking if the US Air Force has a dragon contingency plan.

Uh, dude, that's classified. :-)


remmber all the ways player get by against ranged enemies
example from my gaming it goes like this:

monk with arrow snatching\catching
fighters with the missile shiled feat or sundering\disarming spec
casters spells:
blind
wind
fog
disarming spells (there are at least 3 kinds of them,including forcing him to give out his weapon)
command
sleep
charm
dominate
a fev of one of my characters- an illusion of a wall (the casters frineds know it is an illusion and cna fire back,the ranger need to touch the wlal to disbelive it,and make his save)
greater invisability enemies moving so he has ot pin point where they are at his turn or chance of firing into an empty space.
repel wood
insta death spells
curses
more more

The Exchange

Oh nasty suggestions:

1)

Get an abberant ghost sorcerer (maybe someone he pissed off), with corrupting gaze, corrupting touch.

Put on mage armor, shield, mirror image, abalative barrier and displacement. Longarm if you need more reach.

Alternate between using touch of idiocy on him, or corrupting touch (charisma). Id suggest stoneskin but I'm not sure how a ghost holds the material components for stoneskin.

2)

Get a ghost with corrupting touch and malevolence. Magic jar into his body and force him to kill all his friends.

3) Shadow demon. Use the same way as option 2.

Bleh those suggestions are nasty.

And Robards, I haven't really got into ACG yet(smells of cheese, I'm a lil ol school), but I'm partial to seeker oracles and urban rangers, not so for archelogist bards as they give up bardic performance. As for seeker sorcs, d6 class looking in front for traps is not a good idea. Core campaign pfs, you still need to dip rogue for trapfinding.


Just a Mort wrote:

The druids combat turn will look like this:

Round 1:
Std action: Warp wood
move action: earth glide into earth, move towards party

Round 2: full round action underground summon natures ally whatever

Roumd 3:
std action:move out of ground
Free action: drop summons
Move action:earth glide into ground.

Then repeat round 2 and 3. The counter is if someone manages to get the druid out of ground, ie. Sorc readies to cast black tentacles and catches druid in it, and druid gets grappled. Or someone lands a tanglefoot bag and sticks him to the ground.

If they pissed a druid off, you can send shire stones after them.

Stick them in 30 x 30 ft room with a flame oracle with gaze of flames revelation. Give said oracle a potion of enlarge person and a reach weapon and combat reflexes. Cast obscuring mist using smoke sticks as alchemical power components(so random fireballs won't mess things up, hopefully barbarian does not have spell sunder). Have a good whackdown.

You dont get to move before the summon monster Spell summon stuff, it happend just before it is your turn. The other thing would be very powerfull, but the rules dosent allow it.

The Exchange

What would happen if a wizard started casting sleep, then the enemies moved out of range? Would the wizard not be allowed to move to close the distance to release the spell? If you can cast a spell, then move, and touch to deliver the spell(ie. cure light wounds), what's stopping you from completing the summoning then moving, to deliver it?

I dunno, I always had the impression you can move to close the distance of a 1 round spell.

Oh well, if that doesn't work there's always option of summon large earth elementals under the Earth to pop up on the party.


MordredofFairy wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
MordredofFairy wrote:


gimps his character? Because he CHOOSE to take the favored enemy against all humans over specific nations?
IF I had the campaign set as high-fantasy, with a nation of orcs, one of gnolls, one of gnomes, one of elves, one of humans etc., would you still expect a ranger to pick "favored enemy(humanoid)" without having to make a subchoice? Allowing him to pick "favored enemy(90% of your encounters)" at half regular power would be gimping him?

I fail to understand that logic.

By that same understanding, if i have a campaign on a ice planet with only humans as...

The favored enemy thing is very campaign specific in some games you will only figth every race once and in others it is like orcs in LotR. You have modificed the rules to weaken somthing that could have been a very good thing for the ranger. That is not in question. Weakening a character is a nerf.

But you May have done rigth i dont know. I still dont undestand really what the problem are. If your battles take 3-8 rounds and some of the PCs dosent manage to do stuff they need help. Will you come back next weak and ask how to handle the sorcerer? I think very often the answer is let the PCs be the heroes and if some players feel that they are behind help them make the character better. The ranger works like you described with several buff spells from his friends. If it is only you having a problem, let it go. If some of the other players feel the same tell them to make a post and we can help them boost there PCs. And dont go easy on the archer he is dangerous most bad guys will know that by round 2.

I modified the rules for just one reason.

Imagine I create the world.
Nation 1: Orcs(reskinned as humans)
Nation 2: Gnolls(reskinned as humans)
Nation 3: Elves(reskinned as humans)
...
(repeat for all humanoid subtypes)
...
Then after a great war between the races the god that created this world uses his divine magic to make them all look exactly the same...

Are the bad guys attacking the ranger? I dont undestand how he can be that big a thread. does he have the same survivalabillity as the barbarian? Can he do the same magic stuff as the sorcerer or the magic and social skills of the inquisitor? The monk is most likely to kill but not hard to ignore? If all encounters are about damage then i undestand thet the damage guy is dominating.

I undestand that you remade the World to have humans all over. I did that as well in one game.
But charging the rules to accomodate your World was nnerfing what would have been a very powerfull, pehaps too powerfull class ability.
Just let some of the encounters be against other stuff if his +3 is the problem. (A figther would have had +4+4 without gloves at level 10.)
3-8 rounds are not short combats, and there are always one that have a bigger focus on damage then the others.
I think encounters where the only objektive isent killing the baddies are the way to go. That is what i try if my group include combat week characters like rogues or monks. Let a baby carriage drive in to a burning house and let a team of paniked horses pull a wagon over some kindergarden on tour.
Edit: you should not be making the encounters around the strongest damage dealer in the group, that way, you are the one making the others insignifigant. Make them around everybodys powers and everybody will have a role to play.
Edit2: and happy Easter.


Well, there's all sorts of DM tricks you can pull that others have mentioned - the environment, concealment and terrain, enemy tactics...

Possibly the best way to do it though is to one-on-one, explain to him you're having trouble balancing encounters for him and the other party members - either it's trivial for his long-range death machine, or overpowering for the other guys. Most players will understand and be cool with either toning it down, altering the character, or even trying something new.

I know I would get bored if every combat, i was legolas dispatching an Oliphant while the Rohirrim army watched on like a bunch of useless ninnies.


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Cap. Darling wrote:

Edit: you should not be making the encounters around the strongest damage dealer in the group, that way, you are the one making the others insignifigant. Make them around everybodys powers and everybody will have a role to play.

And that, my friend, is exactly why I am here looking for suggestions because thats exactly what I've been doing but needed more ideas to prevent having to recycle stuff I already did.

on a further note, as mentioned further above, gone now for family visit. thanks all and will be back in a couple days.


I like having low level NPCs on the battle field. That Way a battle Can be more about saving than about killing and that is Nice. Also having battles with several angles to cover so pehaps one approch Can ve covered by a super archer but he cannot also keep the sewer entrance closed and check out what lands on the roof or run after the paniked Mount with the treasure on.


Hey, that comment on Ray of Enfeeblement is actually really good. Don't even worry about changing it to a Dex penalty (Touch of Gracelessness, btw). The Str penalty alone is good enough. He's using a Composite Longbow with a Str rating, and I presume it's = to his Str mod (why wouldn't it be?). Hit him with the Ray, he takes a Str penalty EVEN IF HE SAVES. It's a minimum penalty of -2, given a 6th level caster. That will give him a -2 to his attacks AND reduce his damage. If the caster rolls high on his d6, and/or the Ranger fails his save, that damage drops even further. Even a first level caster, or a mook with a wand can give him a decent handicap.


I have a question about an encounter that I been thinking about. In a cave vs a druid with earth elementals. Huge stalagmites above them. Could the elementals drop the stalagmites on them? Would the elemental need to come out of concealment to do this? I have 3 ranged types and wreck stuff also. I would like to have a encounter where the melee shine.


galahad2112 wrote:
Hey, that comment on Ray of Enfeeblement is actually really good. Don't even worry about changing it to a Dex penalty (Touch of Gracelessness, btw). The Str penalty alone is good enough. He's using a Composite Longbow with a Str rating, and I presume it's = to his Str mod (why wouldn't it be?). Hit him with the Ray, he takes a Str penalty EVEN IF HE SAVES. It's a minimum penalty of -2, given a 6th level caster. That will give him a -2 to his attacks AND reduce his damage. If the caster rolls high on his d6, and/or the Ranger fails his save, that damage drops even further. Even a first level caster, or a mook with a wand can give him a decent handicap.

Extremely unlikely to work. He most likely has the adaptable enhancement on his bow, for this exact sort of situation. Every archer I've played has used it.

The most you are likely to do is decrease his damage by 1 to 2 points, considering the spell has a fort save to half the strength penalty.


Things I have found that deal with the ranged issue are incorporeal enemies (hard to shoot when they are in a wall or the floor) and smart melee tactics like a unit of bad guys with shield wall and tower shields? there is a fighter arctype that helps tower shield use if i remember correctly, some shield specialized fighters can do wonders on closing the distance with a archer then grapple/trip/disarm/ etc hell even dirty trick have one spit in his eye for a bit of blindness.Since thats a country specific thing for your game try fast animals with trip a pack or with a group of baddies they release the war hounds and the hounds charge,attack,trip. Or along the lines of terrain warrens of many small creatures small passages require squeezing and its penalties and then kobolds/baby dragons/cannibal halflings or any other small or tiny nasty. Also water not just fully submerged underwater combat (since everyone is bad) but partial waist deep etc difficult terrain and firing from above to under water, swamps with big bitey submerged reptiles or fast moving (needs acrobatics each round or fall) rivers with gar or other watery doom also poisons that damage dex or str.


Claxon wrote:
galahad2112 wrote:
Hey, that comment on Ray of Enfeeblement is actually really good. Don't even worry about changing it to a Dex penalty (Touch of Gracelessness, btw). The Str penalty alone is good enough. He's using a Composite Longbow with a Str rating, and I presume it's = to his Str mod (why wouldn't it be?). Hit him with the Ray, he takes a Str penalty EVEN IF HE SAVES. It's a minimum penalty of -2, given a 6th level caster. That will give him a -2 to his attacks AND reduce his damage. If the caster rolls high on his d6, and/or the Ranger fails his save, that damage drops even further. Even a first level caster, or a mook with a wand can give him a decent handicap.

Extremely unlikely to work. He most likely has the adaptable enhancement on his bow, for this exact sort of situation. Every archer I've played has used it.

The most you are likely to do is decrease his damage by 1 to 2 points, considering the spell has a fort save to half the strength penalty.

Yeah Adaptive is liable to render dropping his strength moot but only the OP knows if he currently has the ability, likely as it may be. If he doesn't then a caster using an Ray of Enfeeblement (Empowered even) works to both give the player a reason to chose the upgrade over something he might other wise go for and it will along with other tricks mentioned above reduce his potency without neutering him. And if you really want to go for it hit him with a "specialist" who uses both Ray or Enfeeblement and Ray of Gracelessness plus some other debuffing Ray spells.

The mention of kobold or other small critter warrens above --> I'll point out it isn't just squeezing per se but how do you even stand upright to fire a composite bow if you are reduced to crawling on hands and knees. Of course that will tend to be a group wide issue as much as an archer issue ... hard to swing a Great Axe or Great Sword in those circumstances as well though it might let the crossbow using character shine a bit.


There are various debuffs that can help slow down the Archer. Enervation, waves of exhaustion, bestow curse, slow, confusion. Also certain status effects, sickened and staggered. These won't take him out of the fight just make him much less effective.

Drop some nice equipment for the other characters to help them close the gap, make sure some of the abilities are semi unique or something the ranger doesn't have so they feel they can contribute in a way that isn't redundant.


Ready action, area of effect damage right as he shoots. Those first two arrows became flimsy unattended objects when he let go of them. See how well they do in a fireball a split second after release.

Prone targets.

Throw down the gauntlet. Challenge him at what he does best. NPC#602 has heard of his prowess.... and to be the best, he has to beat the best. This NPC archer is plot - neutral and following his nemesis, making a cameo appearance every third or fourth scene... only... do it from 600 feet away, covered, concealed and whatever else other dirty trick you can think of. Your PC might just become paranoid as he|| and become less effective in combat.


actually one thing I would suggest is having some encounters that could result in attacks at very long range - while likely still effective a few range increments can make a big difference in DPR and ranged combat is in theory something Archers should be good at.

And don't neglect range penalties for perception if enemies are attacking and then moving/hiding (the mechanics can be tricky here however - no sneak attacks most likely so can't precisely use sniping rules)


For people suggesting encounters to throw at him, I recommend bearing the following in mind:

  • The method(s) of challenging him should be easily and reasonably repeatable. Tetori Tiefling monks with Darkness on their clothes might suck for him (or not, it depends), but you can only really use that sort of thing once in a blue moon.

  • He should still be able to contribute to encounters, just not dominate them. Making him not dominate by making him useless is just creating another problem.

  • The ways of challenging him shouldn't screw other characters in the group. Things like dominate hurt him because he loses control of his character, but hurts other characters more because they die.

  • The ways of challenging him shouldn't make some or all of the other members useless. Having archers behind barricades that provide improved cover will make his job harder. Unless the barbarian has ways around the barricade his job has been made impossible.

  • The player shouldn't feel unfairly targeted. Including stuff like environmental cover/concealment is usually not this - if he complains, you can straight up tell him that the reason he has been so OP is that you haven't been using rules that you should have been, and the best part of this is that it's basically true. Windwall spam, on the other hand, is definitely not appropriate.

  • Sometimes the player should still be allowed to be the most contributing member of the encounter. He shouldn't get most/all the spotlight, but he should get some of it.

The Exchange

If you want to go rival archer build, make rival archer a Myrmidarch of at least lv 11 (bounty hunter/assasin of some sort). Give him wayang spell hunter and magical lineage on frigid touchh. Initiate combat by using a (reached to medium range) frigid touch. Get improved critical on the mymidarch. On hit, he is staggered.If the shot crits, he's staggered for 1 min. There is no save. Then have him fire on the ranger with spell striked reach scorching rays after. Laugh manically as you proclaim he is now victim to your ice arrows and has no chance of beating you. If your mymridach is of high enough lv (13), ghostblade magus arcana will make the bow brilliant energy, so you are hitting touch ac.


MordredofFairy wrote:

If you want high AC and arrow deflection, for most classes it would be better to aim at Missile Shield, which requires shield focus and allows a larger shield to be used.

The problem is that while those deflect feats negate manyshot, they do nothing against rapid shot. So with haste, he still has 2 shots left at his highest iterative after the first got deflected, while the other characters only have 1 at their highest iterative. Assuming the lower iteratives fail, thats still 2 hits for the ranger and 1 for the other chars. It DOES negate two hits courtesy of manyshot always being on the first attack, so it helps, but it's not optimal. But thanks for bringing it up!

I was avoiding the higher AC of a larger shield. The point of raising the AC but not going overboard would be to make the archer want to use Pinpoint Targeting, when they get it. However, you do not want to raise the AC so high that other members of the team have a hard time hitting it too. Missile Shield and Deflect Arrows work in the same way with two different setups. I just think opening up the melees ability to still wreck him is hard to do, so I decided to offer Deflect Arrows instead. Also, the point of deflecting it either way is because Pinpoint Targeting basically makes a ranged touch attack as a standard attack action. Only one shot per round to use this ability, and one shot per round can be negated.


Lots of good ideas on here already, probably covering most of the possibilities too.

I just wanted to chime in on some Terrain/Environment ideas:

- Foot Chase / Hunt / Skirmish through dense, closely packed city; buildings with multiple stories, tight corners, blind spots; party has to split up to clear buildings as they move down a street

This even gives the archer the chance to shine in his role (and not so much as pure DPR) as he can set up at the top of a building and control enemy snipers while being ready to get the guys that his allies can flush out from hiding

- Same idea, but in a Cave: winding corridors combined with low-light/darkness challenges; could even incorporate the waist-deep water idea mentioned above (crossing an underground river filled with subterranean crocs!)
-> great place for the aforementioned Earth Elemental / Earth Glide Druid

- (mentioned above, reiterating): Densely packed Forest with lots of cover; could be the home of those pesky Phase Spiders with tons of Web flying around / coating the trees (Spider Witch?)

Other ideas:

- Though it hasn't been mentioned, I'm sure you have thought of the idea of having someone outright challenge the Monk / Barb to a 1 on 1 duel; gives them the actual spotlight for a sec

- The classic "prison break" scenario (if you are ok with a slightly Deus Ex Machina move to capture them) where they have to fight weaponless / improvised until they find their confiscated stuff
-> Could follow if you get that Flame Oracle to subdue them successfully


Snowblind wrote:


  • The ways of challenging him shouldn't screw other characters in the group. Things like dominate hurt him because he loses control of his character, but hurts other characters more because they die.

  • I find this the hardest. The OP stated he doesnt want to exploit his weaknesses (which is will save such as hold person or hardcounter archery spells/shenanigans). Therefore there is little to do that wont seriously hurt the otherplayers, because you play to his strengths and as stated, no one of their party is up to par. I agree dominate is too drastic.

    Another suggestion: Witch Evil Eye With Greater Invisibility, get those - rolling. For extra fun, hit him With Bestow Curse With Reach metamagic. Minus to hit is a good middle ground.

    Also, and I seriously mean this, change Manyshot/Clustered Shots. They are the problem or archery in combination. If you wont do it this campaign I suggest in future ones as a houserule.

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