| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
There is a major difference between an Arcanist who builds a BlackBlade and a Magus who finds it. The Arcanist starts with a normal weapon, turns it into a bonded item with Sword Bond, and that weapon later transforms into a BlackBlade. The Arcanist gives up 3 exploits for this. The Magus discovers or is discovered by their blades, and gives up 1 arcana to use it.
There are two major benefits of having a bonded item. They are the ability to pull an extra spell from their spell list and the ability to enchant their bonded item. You can't add enchantments to a BlackBlade after it becomes sentient, but what happens if the Arcanist has already enchanted their bonded weapon before it becomes a BlackBlade?
1. Does an enchanted Sword Bond weapon lose all it's enchants when it becomes a Sentient Sword?
2. Its unlikely since enhancement bonuses do not stack, but do the bonuses from the Sentient Sword enchantments stack with the enchanted Sword Bond?
(If it is answer 2, could you end up with a +5 flaming BlackBlade, instead of a +5 BlackBlade?)
3. Will the Sentient Sword stats only impose themselves when they're greater than those of the enchanted Sword Bond weapon.
(If it is answer 3, could you end up with a +4 flaming BlackBlade, instead of a +5 BlackBlade?)
You can't add enchantments to a BlackBlade after it becomes sentient,
Really? Why not ?
You can't add enchantments to a BlackBlade after it becomes sentient,Really? Why not ?
@Thanael There is an FAQ saying that item creation feats can't be used on a BlackBlade found by a magus. See here: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qux
@LazarX Yes, I forgot to mention a Magus's slower arcane progression. Thanks!
The main issue is:
How should a bonded weapon via Sword Bond be handled when it becomes a BlackBlade?
- Overwrite
- Stack, or
- Build On after it surpasses
Actually all rules support being able to enchant and upgrade weapons. The only thing that hints otherwise is the FAQ I listed above, and that is for enchanting currently sentient blades, NOT for adding a BlackBlade template to an already enchanted weapon. In fact, since BlackBlades replace familiars, it seems like the BlackBlade template may act similar to a familiar template and get laid on top of bonded item with enchantments.
There is a good chance that overwrite is correct, but there also seems to be a lot of support for the other options. Why do you feel overwrite makes the most sense?
Since the black blade becomes a blackblade at 3 and sword Bond allow you to treat your weapon as a wizards bounded object. There is enchant before level 3. You dont get to enchant your bound object unless your are high enough to get the relevant feat. The relevant text is somthing like
"A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger"
I think the arcanist pay too much for his blackblade but there are no rules for stacking these things and every attempt to do so will be a houserule since we have a FAQ.
The level requirement doesn't mean that a bonded weapon couldn't be enchanted by an character before they hit lvl 3 as an Arcanist if they started in another class. So if the Sword Bond enhancements are overwritten, then why wouldn't the bond itself also be overwritten?
I know we have an FAQ, but as I mentioned above, it only covers found BlackBlades, not BlackBlades that are created from bonded items.
This is also not about cheese. It simply isn't clear.
The blackblade is no more created by the arcanist than by the magus. It just says that it becomes a blackblade. There are no rules for what you ask and we already have a ruling that covers it. A blackblade cannot have additional enchantments put in it with the item creation rules. No matter if it is before or after it awakens. If you magic your sword up and then make it in to a blackblade you just lose some gold. But why would you have 5 caster levels in any Spell casting class and then start on blade adept arcanist????
Edit: i changed the rules about materials in my game since i would like it to be adamantine blades. Point is that unless you are in PFS just talk with the GM.
The level requirement doesn't mean that a bonded weapon couldn't be enchanted by an character before they hit lvl 3 as an Arcanist if they started in another class. So if the Sword Bond enhancements are overwritten, then why wouldn't the bond itself also be overwritten?
I know we have an FAQ, but as I mentioned above, it only covers found BlackBlades, not BlackBlades that are created from bonded items.
This is also not about cheese. It simply isn't clear.
My GM ignores the Blackblade FAQ, and treats it as a +5 Intelligent weapon from the start (it just "lets" you gain it's abilities at a pace you earn) so upgrading it (no matter what level you are) requires that you treat it as a +5 weapon.
So if you are level 7 and want your +2 Blackblade to gain the Flaming enchant, then you take the cost of a +6 weapon (+5 Blackblade +1 for Flaming - 72k) and subtract the cost of a +5 weapon (the Blackblade base - 50k) for a total of 22k (which you pay half). Makes it very clear that you can't spend 2k to get a +6 weapon eventually.
It's fair, but costly.
The only reason to enchant your Blackblade anyway is lower levels. At the higher levels, you lose out on Arcane Pool. If you have a +7 weapon before Arcane Pool, any level over 12th is a "waste" since you can't add +4 to a +7 weapon (+10 is max).
The level requirement doesn't mean that a bonded weapon couldn't be enchanted by an character before they hit lvl 3 as an Arcanist if they started in another class. So if the Sword Bond enhancements are overwritten, then why wouldn't the bond itself also be overwritten?
I know we have an FAQ, but as I mentioned above, it only covers found BlackBlades, not BlackBlades that are created from bonded items.
This is also not about cheese. It simply isn't clear.
My GM ignores the Blackblade FAQ, and treats it as a +5 Intelligent weapon from the start (it just "lets" you gain it's abilities at a pace you earn) so upgrading it (no matter what level you are) requires that you treat it as a +5 weapon.
So if you are level 7 and want your +2 Blackblade to gain the Flaming enchant, then you take the cost of a +6 weapon (+5 Blackblade +1 for Flaming - 72k) and subtract the cost of a +5 weapon (the Blackblade base - 50k) for a total of 22k (which you pay half). Makes it very clear that you can't spend 2k to get a +6 weapon eventually.
It's fair, but costly.
The only reason to enchant your Blackblade anyway is lower levels. At the higher levels, you lose out on Arcane Pool. If you have a +7 weapon before Arcane Pool, any level over 12th is a "waste" since you can't add +4 to a +7 weapon (+10 is max).
wanting somthing like Agile on the weapon can also be a reason.
wanting somthing like Agile on the weapon can also be a reason.
[canofworms] That's what Slashing/Fencing Grace is for! :P [/canofworms]
The main reason I asked the question was because of the advanced exploit,
Alter Enhancements: An arcanist with this exploit can modify the enhancements placed on a weapon, suit of armor, or shield. The arcanist can use this exploit to change one weapon or armor special ability to another with an equal cost. This ability can only be used to change the item's special abilities, not its enhancement bonus.
A BlackBlade only has enhancement bonuses and no special abilities based on enhancement values. That makes Alter Enhancements useless for BlackBlade users.
It makes no sense that the Blade Adept archetype is so expensive if it prevents the signature weapon based advanced exploit from working, and prevents a major portion of the bonded item feature from functioning. If overwriting Sword Bond enhancements is RAI, then this is a poorly thought out archetype. I find it hard to believe that holes that large, on such an expensive archetype, could be intended.
Agreed!! This really should be clarified. However the closer I look at Arcanist, the more it seems they have intentionally made most of the things that could have been interesting twists virtually unusable.
FAQ this!!
The main reason I asked the question was because of the advanced exploit,
Alter Enhancements: An arcanist with this exploit can modify the enhancements placed on a weapon, suit of armor, or shield. The arcanist can use this exploit to change one weapon or armor special ability to another with an equal cost. This ability can only be used to change the item's special abilities, not its enhancement bonus.A BlackBlade only has enhancement bonuses and no special abilities based on enhancement values. That makes Alter Enhancements useless for BlackBlade users.
It makes no sense that the Blade Adept archetype is so expensive if it prevents the signature weapon based advanced exploit from working, and prevents a major portion of the bonded item feature from functioning. If overwriting Sword Bond enhancements is RAI, then this is a poorly thought out archetype. I find it hard to believe that holes that large, on such an expensive archetype, could be intended.
I think the alter enchantment was written by somebody not thinking about the blackblade AT and the other way. Most blackblade guys are not gonna hit anything when they hit level 10 so it will most likely never be a Real in game problem. But it does seem that the arcanist like most other classes in the ACG need a editors work.
This, like most RAW arguments, should be something you take up with your GM (or talk with your players about).
Do you think it's fair for an Arcanist to have a better black blade than a Magus? If so, cool. If not, then don't enchant it.
It could really be that easy, for ex:
Player - "Hey GM, can I enchant this sword before I turn it into a black blade?"
GM - "Are there rules for this?"
Player - "Not exactly. It's vague with regards to Arcanist, but it says it's 'like a Magus.'"
GM - "Well, why don't we use the rules the Magus lives by?"
Player - "...because I want it to be flaming, too."
GM then says yes or no. Or maybe they continue to have a polite and intelligent discussion.
You have the power... the power to decide... the power to have fun... the power to enjoy your game.
It is WITHIN YOU.
--I know that doesn't really help the pedantic grammar argument side of this, but when there isn't any errata on the situation, you have to take charge and make the rules, just like the creators of the game suggested.
The Alter Enhancement exploit was written for use by people OTHER than carrying blackblades. It's also not part of the Blade Adept progression so I don't see it's relevance here.
From what I can tell. The Sword Bond is a transitional step between an ordinary weapon and it's full investment as a BlackBlade. the optimal exploit to take with this would be Eldritch Blade which allowes the blade to continue to advance if the Arcanist multi-classes to a PrC such as Eldritch Knight.
You're not supposed to be taking Alter Enhancement with this archetype.
That is a vey large statement. It may be correct, but it could just as easily be an oversight.
- Intentionally making Alter Enhancements not work with a BlackBlade,- intentionally not allowing a bonded weapon to be enhanced
while also making the this archetype so expensive and restrictive, just screams of an oversight somewhere.
Saying that the signature weapon exploit shouldn't work with the signature weapon archetype for Arcanist doesn't makes sense to me. It looks more like an oversight, or just bad design.
I agree that Sword Bond is a transitional step to Sentient Sword. A major part of a bonded item is being able to enchant it. The fact that it is assumed that the weapon will stay bonded once it becomes a BlackBlade means that the weapon is not totally overwritten when it becomes a BlackBlade. Not spelling out what happens to the bonded sword when it becomes sentient is a very large oversight.
This really needs an FAQ.