PFS and Monstrous Physique choices


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When casting Monstrous Physique in PFS, what is the legal list of monster choices for a player? Is it any monstrous humanoid from any PFS legal sourcebook? Or are players restricted to monsters found in the Bestiaries?

1/5

I believe it is only the first Bestiary.

Not the right forum, though. Flagging.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Check the AR page. Any legal source will have something like the following:

Quote:
Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.

As far as I can tell from that, legal sources are Bestiaries 1 through 4.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Indeed. The Additional Resources Document is key.

There are creatures available as Animal Companions and Familiars, from obscure sources, that are not available for polymorph effects, which I have had to mention a couple times at PFS tables.

Also, whatever that horridly overpowered 6-armed creature is that Magi like to polymorph into. That is also not legal.


Thanks for the help! I suppose this means that the Momstrous Physique spell is technically illegal to use in PFS if players don't own the appropriate Bestiary.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I'm about to unleash the gargoyle mayhem on someone soon.

'Gulp' .. LOTS of attacks. :D

Silver Crusade 3/5

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JFIVEK wrote:
Thanks for the help! I suppose this means that the Momstrous Physique spell is technically illegal to use in PFS if players don't own the appropriate Bestiary.

I think this is true. But if I was the GM, I would probably let a player use a monstrous humanoid out of any Bestiary that I had on hand. I would be much more inclined to do so if the player already had printed out (or even hand-written) stat blocks of their character with various choices of monstrous transformation. This is worth asking about before the game starts.

Say to the GM: "Hey, my character uses the spell monstrous transformation. These are the forms he likes to transform into. This list is from the Bestiary, this list is from Bestiary 2, ..."

TL;DR: Print out the transformed version of your character for those forms you use frequently. It makes the game run more smoothly.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Runt_ wrote:

I'm about to unleash the gargoyle mayhem on someone soon.

'Gulp' .. LOTS of attacks. :D

Three words:

Flying Giant Octopus


JFIVEK wrote:
...the Momstrous Physique spell

Epic typo. :)


How does monsterous physique ACTUALLY work? Do you get to keep your armor since your are a "monsterous humanoid?" Or does that meld into your body like during a druid's wildshape, thus MASSIVELY reducing your AC and making you all but worthless in combat until you get a high level enchantment on your armor?

I am going to start either a magus or an investigator soon, and many people having VAGUELY lauded over how great these spells are WITHOUT EVER ONCE DESCRIBING HOW THEY WORK in a very literal, game mechanics way.

I would love it if someone would be willing to describe various aspects of these spells IN DETAIL (since Paizo does a horrible job of explaining them in their books).

Silver Crusade 3/5

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PRD > Core Rulebook > Magic > Polymorph wrote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.


While it's nice that you copied and pasted that block text, it actually didn't answer anything SPECIFIC to monstrous physique. In fact, it rather muddy everything up because it seemed to say that equipment is absorbed... accept when it's not. Which basically answers nothing at all about my question and most certainly does nothing to provide working examples to help players out (something that Catalyst Games does MUCH better than Paizo in their books).

I thank you for the attempt, but that really didn't help at all, unfortunately.


Here, let me give a start to an example and if anyone can explain what happens IN DETAIL while using monstrous form, that would be awesome.

Let's say that a character has 14 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 14 wis, and 14 cha. All +2 stat bonuses. They have a chainshirt+2 (AC 6, dex up to 4) and a long sword+2. They also have a ring of protection+2, an amulet of natural armor+2, a light shield+2 (3 AC), and a cloak of resistance+2. Their BAB is, you guessed it, +2 att. And all saves are +2.

So that's:
+6 att (BAB+str+weapon), 1d8+4 dmg
25AC (10+dex+armor+ring+amulet+shield)
+6 to all saves (stats+base+cloak)

He decides to cast "Monstrous Physique I" to alter himself and turn into a gargoyle.

So... what EXACTLY happens? Go!

Silver Crusade 3/5

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Snuggles: Destroyer of Worlds wrote:
So... what EXACTLY happens?

Here's the text from monstrous physique I.

Monstrous Physique I wrote:

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the monstrous humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent. If the form you assume has the aquatic subtype, you gain the aquatic and amphibious subtypes.

Small monstrous humanoid: If the form you take is that of a Small monstrous humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.

Medium monstrous humanoid: If the form you take is that of a Medium monstrous humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.

Here's the PRD entry for gargoyle

Here's the text for polymorph spells:

PRD > Core Rulebook > Magic > polymorph wrote:

Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

You get fly 30 ft., darkvision 60 ft., a +2 size bonus to Strength, and a +2 natural armor bonus. You also gain the natural attacks of a gargoyle (2 claws, a bite, and a gore).

Edited for the correction the FT pointed out. :)

Scarab Sages 4/5

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The Fox quoted the relevant section with regards to equipment. Since Monstrous Humanoid is not one of the types listed in that paragraph, equipment remains. A Gargoyle is a medium creature, so I believe you get a +2 STR regardless of what size you were before changing. If you were small before changing, you would also take a -1 penalty to AC and a -1 to hit from changing size. You would gain the natural attacks of a gargoyle, but with your bonuses (plus the +2 STR). You would gain a fly speed of 30. You would gain Darkvision 60 feet. You would gain a +2 natural armor bonus, which would stack with barkskin or an amulet of natural armor, but would not stack with your own natural armor, if you had any (like from being a Nagaji).

Edit: And ninja'd by The Fox. Only thing is it's a +2 natural armor bonus for a medium creature, not +1.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Another advantage of the spell, much like the lower level Alter Self, is it's flexibility. Need to fly? Turn into a gargoyle. Need to swim? Turn into anything with a swim speed, and when you do, you get the bonus of picking up the amphibious subtype, which lets you breathe underwater. Don't have Darkvision? Quite a few Monstrous Humanoids do. Fighting a pesky invisible creature and don't have a See Invisibilty extract prepared? Change into something with scent.

My Finesse Gnome Investigator intends to use it to turn into a Charda once he finally gets 3rd level extracts next level. 5 natural attacks, a +2 Dex, a +1 Natural Armor Bonus, and a swim speed. Throw in Studied Combat and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists and it's decent damage output for a mostly skills based character.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Snuggles: Destroyer of Worlds wrote:
didn't answer anything SPECIFIC to monstrous physique. In fact, it rather muddy everything up because it seemed to say that equipment is absorbed... accept when it's not.

Notice which entry is missing:

The important bits wrote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.

Monstrous Humanoids are not a part of that list, so if you're a Human Magus using this spell to change into a Large Monstrous Humanoid, you get to not only keep all of your gear, but it also sizes to fit you =).


Thank you all for your help. I never knew where to look for the rules for polymorph, so I appreciate "The Fox" posting them (with sources!). And I appreciate "Ferious Thune" and "Nefreet" answering some of the more practical concerns of HOW things actually play out.

So, using my example character above, and saying that he is a human that turns into a gargoyle, please tell me if this this how things would play out:

Monstrous Physic I grants +2 str and +2 natural armor, as well as the gargoyle abilities darkvision, fly (30ft), and 4 arms w/ primary natural attacks.

That means that his stats become:
16 str, 14, dex, 14 con, 14 int, 14 wis, 14 cha.
+7 att w/ long sword (BAB+str+weapon), 1d8+5 dmg
+5 att w/ claws (BAB+str) - 2 attacks w/ full round action
1d4+1 dmg per attack
27 AC (10+dex+armor+shield+ring+amulet+natural)
Vision: darkvision
Movement: 30 ft ground, 30 ft fly

If he moves and attacks, he can either strike with his sword once or his claw once. If he does a full round action, he can attack with his sword once and his claws two times (one of the four hands hold the sword, another holds a shield). Since he is still wearing armor, he can still use his other Extracts, potions, wands, or metamagic rods if desired. And he can speak normally, since he still has vocal cords for human speech.

Did I get that all correct? I always think that an actual example helps to clarify things MUCH better than just generalize text. If something it amiss, would one of you please explain the flaw in relation to the example above and tell me how things *should* work?

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Don't feel bad. Most of the rules for the polymorph spells are tucked away in the magic section there. The rules for what you're trying to do are all over the place (thats half the fun of doing them...)

In the case of sword claw claw claw

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

(this is from the universal monster rules)
Secondary attacks take a -5 penalty and only do half strength damage. You probably want to forgo the sword in that case.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Gargoyles only have two arms.

Unless you were meaning four attacks (Claw/Claw/Bite/Gore).

Grand Lodge 5/5

Three? 2h weapon, gore, bite?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I suppose you could get 6 attacks by equipping a couple Blade Boots and using Two-Weapon Fighting. Your attacks would be: Boot(-2), Boot(-2), Claw(-5), Claw(-5), Bite(-5), Gore(-5). The penalties are painful, though at least you don't have to worry about the Blade Boot's drawback since you'd have a Fly speed.

Scarab Sages 4/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
I suppose you could get 6 attacks by equipping a couple Blade Boots and using Two-Weapon Fighting. Your attacks would be: Boot(-2), Boot(-2), Claw(-5), Claw(-5), Bite(-5), Gore(-5). The penalties are painful, though at least you don't have to worry about the Blade Boot's drawback since you'd have a Fly speed.

I have brokenly used Monstrous Physique in many campaigns. My favorite forms (for PFS, which limits you to Bestiary 1-2-3-4):

Polymorph spells give you the BASE land speed, no matter what it is (there is no limit like with Fly and Swim).

Monst Form 1:
Gargoyle: 4 primary natural attacks and a fly speed. medium creature, and it has a 40' land speed (a boon to most PCs). If you're a weapon using character, you'll probably be Weapon, bite, gore (I assume you use both hands/claws for the weapon and/or a shield or Magus casting).

Charda (bestiary2) small with 5 primary natural attacks and a swim speed. It's land speed is only 20', so getting into position is a pain. but 5 primary natural attacks on a small creature means this is ideal for someone with an Amulet of Mighty Fists (Agile) that is dexterity based. I have a transmuter wizard that does this to great effect.

Monst Form2 (lets you choose a large target)
Centaur: : It has a base land speed of 50', which is great for fighter types. It also has two hoof attacks, which go great with someone full-attacking with a two-handed sword. Combines well with other spells and class features that grant Gore or Bite attacks.

Most of the truly broken forms are not allowed, as they do not exist in the Bestiarys (the four-armed gargoyle is from one of the Carrion Crown Adventure Path, and the six-armed Calikang is from the Inner Sea World Guide).

Also, while Tiny options would be great, I have yet to find a Tiny Monstrous Humanoid. Most of them are Large sized. Similarly, there are very few (if any) huge ones.

In high level (12+) play, I actually prefer the Minotaur with Monstrous Physique 3, as that gives you Natural Cunning - which makes you Immune to Maze and you cannot be caught flat-footed.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

grandpoobah wrote:
Similarly, there are very few (if any) huge ones.

The Thriae Queen, I believe, is the only one.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

In related news, sadly the sewer troll from the Monster Codex isn't allowed either (none of that book is a legal polymorph target). It would be an awesome target for Alter Self otherwise (medium, 10ft reach claws).

The Exchange 3/5

In a similar vein, it may be somewhat dangerous in PFS play but Undead Anatomy is a polymorph spell and it gives the undead type which is also not on this list: "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body"

So does that mean a Wizard can cast Undead Anatomy and continue throwing out spells since his spell component pouch doesn't meld into the form, right? I know this is a bit off-topic.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Codanous wrote:

In a similar vein, it may be somewhat dangerous in PFS play but Undead Anatomy is a polymorph spell and it gives the undead type which is also not on this list: "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body"

So does that mean a Wizard can cast Undead Anatomy and continue throwing out spells since his spell component pouch doesn't meld into the form, right? I know this is a bit off-topic.

Yes, that seems right.

5/5 *****

Codanous wrote:

In a similar vein, it may be somewhat dangerous in PFS play but Undead Anatomy is a polymorph spell and it gives the undead type which is also not on this list: "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body"

So does that mean a Wizard can cast Undead Anatomy and continue throwing out spells since his spell component pouch doesn't meld into the form, right? I know this is a bit off-topic.

Yes but then you can do that with any form with the ability to speak and undertake somatic components. The only gear that melds is stuff which is on you at the time. It isn't difficult to drop a pouch of other key pieces of equipment and just carry them around on your new body. Dragons, Elementals and certain Magical Beasts should all be able to provide forms capable of spellcasting.

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