Magic Items and Rarity


Homebrew and House Rules


Personal Rant: I never really liked how Magic Items are handled in a vanilla Pathfinder game. There are not many suggestion on how to use them in a game, a lot is left to the DM and often players begin to self-manage magic items with unpleasant results.

I want to play a game where magic items have much more personality and importance in the campaign, not just simple stat boons in a player sheet.

A typical magic item story:
Quote:

DM: «You find in the chest a weird helm, carved from the skull of a mighty stag. It seems to emit a little light in the dark, and when you stare at its empty eyes you almost feel observed. It emits a faint divination aura.

Player 1: «Value?» *spellcraft check*
DM: «About 20.000 gp.»
Player 1: «Good. Player 2, clean it and wrap it up, we sell it tomorrow, my sword needed a +5 upgrade.»

Situations like these make me pass the desire to enrich the campaign with cool theme related stuff, especially with crafting feats available for players (feats that I like, actually).

In D&D 5e the ideas of Rarity and item formulas are new to me and they offered me an opportunity to define magic presence in the campaign, modulate the scarcity of magic items and therefore make them appear more important to the avid eyes of the players in a PF game. Or, at least, this is my intent, I'm still working on it! I'd really like to know your comments and suggestions about this modification that I want to introduce and test with my players tomorrow.

For those not familiar with magic items in D&D 5e, rarity is the most important property an item has, it defines the cost, the level and the price for crafting it, and its presence in the world.

In a first attempt I tried to define the rarity of a magic item in function of its price. While effective, I'm not fully convinced by this solution.

Rarity by price:

Popular………..25-100 gp
Common……..101-1.000 gp
Uncommon….1.001-5.000 gp
Rare………….…5.001-10.000 gp
Very Rare…….10.001-20.000 gp
Legendary……20.000+ gp


Thanks to a discussion on EN World (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?413424-Crafting-Magical-Item-s ales-in-5e), I thought I could use CL to better define magic item rarity.

Rarity by CL
In brackets: level at which a PC generally handles that kind of item
Popular (1+)................CL 0th
Common (1+)..............CL 1st
Uncommon (5+)...........CL 3rd
Rare (11+)..................CL 5th
Very Rare (17+)...........CL 11th
Legendary (varies)........CL 17th

With this chart and the idea that people need formulas to build items a DM may decide what kinds of items are typical in his settings and give a sense of what is common and what is not to his players with in-game solutions:

  • Commerce is scarse and rare items cannot be found.
  • Craft wondrous items allows to build popular to rare items.
  • Blocks of items can be unlocked to buy or to craft through campaign events.
  • Single legendary formulas may allow the building of a single item.
Plus, the helm in the spoiler above would not be so easily sold because special buyers might be needed for such a rare thing. And building even a +4 sword would be impossible even in a metropolis where very rare items are scarce because of the lack of their formulas.

What do you think? Might Rarity be a thing in Pathfinder? May it help to enrich the campaign and make new objects shine in comparison to a belt of physical perfection? Is this scenario flawed, or useless?


Or... you could just make special items actually special.

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You can't make magic items special until Pathfinder's second XP track stops calling itself magic items.

So either you rip the entire WBL/gear element out of the game (downsizing encounters to compensate), or you dress that particular aspect of character progression as something other than gear (such as a literal second XP track, or fixed level-based bonuses, etc).

But one way or another, you make magic items stop being a baked-in element of character advancement. That's your best shot at making room for rare, special, flavorful magic items in your game.


Anzyr wrote:
Or... you could just make special items actually special.

Not sure what you mean, but if you mean to create uber-items to make them worthy for the players: this is exactly what I want to avoid.


Jiggy wrote:

You can't make magic items special until Pathfinder's second XP track stops calling itself magic items.

So either you rip the entire WBL/gear element out of the game (downsizing encounters to compensate), or you dress that particular aspect of character progression as something other than gear (such as a literal second XP track, or fixed level-based bonuses, etc).

But one way or another, you make magic items stop being a baked-in element of character advancement. That's your best shot at making room for rare, special, flavorful magic items in your game.

I don't think I would rewrite WBL charts only because characters have difficulties spending all their money in magic items. They may accumulate, buy more weaker items, buy commercial activities, spend their money in a more "human" way and still keep growing as characters. Encounter difficulty wouldn't be affected in a significant way neither, at least at my table. Sure, the success of a character would be more dependent on his abilities.


I mean create actually unique items whose effects cannot be obtained anywhere else. To steal some examples from my E6 campaign:

Stonerider Greaves - These greaves appear to be made of thin slabs of stone with a sandworn appearance. These greaves grant a +1 dodge bonus to AC per 3 character levels while the wearer is standing on stone (worked or unworked). Stonerider Greaves grant the wearer 30 ft. tremorsense and once per day per 2 character levels, the wearer may ride a wave of stone 10 ft. in any direction as a swift action, which provokes no attacks of opportunity.

Maiming Shard - This thin grey stone is very unusually shaped, appearing identical to thin dagger with a larger than normal blade. This +1 keen stone dagger deals damage as though it were a shortsword made of iron. Any individual able to use either a dagger or a short sword with proficiency is proficient in the use of Maiming Shard. Likewise, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in dagger and short sword apply equally, but the benefits of those feats do not stack. Whenever Maiming Shard scores a critical hit it deals an additional 1d4 STR damage.

Savage Cleaver - This +1 mighty cleaving Battleaxe has a single unusually shaped ax head whose blade nearly reaches the grip. Even when used in one hand, the Savage Cleaver is treated as being held in two hands for all purposes, including determining damage and Power Attack.

Fortune's Flask - This flask of baked clay contains sweet smelling water. If poured out it contains enough water for 4 people to drink. Anyone who drinks the water gains the effects of a Good Hope spell for 1 hour. Additionally, anyone who drinks the water can reroll one d20 roll made within 24 hours, after they know the results of the roll.

Misery Ring - This black stone ring wrapped in iron rings seems to radiate an unpleasant aura. Everyone around the wearer is also afflicted with an uneasy feeling. Every creature in a 10 ft. radius of the wearer, except the wearer suffer a -2 penalty to attacks, AC, saving throws and skill checks.

None of these items are "uber", but each has a potent and unique effect. My players prize these items and spend a great deal of time searching for them.


Anzyr, these are interesting items, good work. But I recognize my limits and I think I wouldn't be able to create many magic items which are slightly better and unique without being "too good": on the long run, some of them would be flawed. Sometimes I create magic items, but they are usually secondary items, almost never useful in combat. I would love to find a way to make all the published material, especially from niches like some campaign settings that I like, worthy, unique, with a dignity that goes beyond their gold value (that's why I buy them). I understand, though, that such a change would make my style look "low-magic" to many, and not everybody enjoys it. As Jiggy pointed out, WBL is something so pervasive that it is not easy to change something like this without making someone feel outraged.

Sczarni

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I think overall, you are making more work for yourself then you need. Check all older topics about low magic campaigns. It seems to me that you simply want magical items to mean something and you can do so by making magical items rare commodity. You have to however grant PCs something in return. Additional Ability Score levels increase per level, additional feats maybe, etc. otherwise you are looking at very crippled party of heroes.

Keep in mind also, that you can't change players. I tried it numerous times before I realized that everyone has their own playstyle.

Adam


Malag, I looked around and I found some good discussions on low magic campaigns. I also found a good set of 3.5 rules, with a table in particular that redefines WBL with inherent bonuses for the PCs. This is very interesting and I'd like to implement it but this is a big change: I will talk with my players and try to understand what they really prefer.


I imagine low-magic will have essentially the same effect as item rarity. Keep in mind, too, that Pathfinder is balanced around readily available magic items, so some encounters are much harder than they otherwise would be.

If you want magic to feel really relevant, I'd recommend going with a low-magic setting and having frequent DR/magic opponents. One thing you can also do is add DR to certain enemies, especially non-humanoid or magical ones, so that when your players finally do get a magic weapon they feel more impressive. On that note, too, you can switch up how magic armor and the essential items work, or even remove things like Headband of Intelligence, etc. from the game entirely.

Maybe give magic armor slight DR bonuses instead of just +1 to AC, or other effects. You can also play with whether or not a weapon or armor has to be +1 to be magical: it could have an effect but not increase attack or damage.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

How to make magic items special?

- give them a unique description. Instead of a +1 longsword, say it's a rune-encrusted blade with bronze filigree running down the length of the blade with a large glowing ruby set into the elaborately-worked hilt, so that it resembles a dragon's eye.

- give it some minor secondary magical effect, like +2 on saves vs fear, or heal 1d4 hit points once per day.

- give it a history, that PCs can discover with knowledge checks. This rune-encrusted blade was created by the legendary wizard Malificarus, when he imprisoned a fragment of the soul of a rival sorcerer with dragon blood in the sword's hilt. (etc)

This requires more work, but I find it very rewarding in terms of roleplay, and can even lead to adventure seeds as PCs try to track down other items made by this "legendary wizard".

If you do this, also allow players to upgrade their gear. It's much more fun to upgrade that legendary +1 sword to be more powerful, rather than tossing it off to the nearest merchant to replace it with a +2 blade, then +3 etc.

No changes are necessary to the basic rules, and no mind-shattering consequences concerning WBL need be considered.

YMMV.

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Wheldrake wrote:

How to make magic items special?

- give them a unique description. Instead of a +1 longsword, say it's a rune-encrusted blade with bronze filigree running down the length of the blade with a large glowing ruby set into the elaborately-worked hilt, so that it resembles a dragon's eye.

- give it some minor secondary magical effect, like +2 on saves vs fear, or heal 1d4 hit points once per day.

- give it a history, that PCs can discover with knowledge checks. This rune-encrusted blade was created by the legendary wizard Malificarus, when he imprisoned a fragment of the soul of a rival sorcerer with dragon blood in the sword's hilt. (etc)

This requires more work, but I find it very rewarding in terms of roleplay, and can even lead to adventure seeds as PCs try to track down other items made by this "legendary wizard".

If you do this, also allow players to upgrade their gear. It's much more fun to upgrade that legendary +1 sword to be more powerful, rather than tossing it off to the nearest merchant to replace it with a +2 blade, then +3 etc.

No changes are necessary to the basic rules, and no mind-shattering consequences concerning WBL need be considered.

YMMV.

Bolding mine.

If you're going to do the above without making any changes to the rules, then you're going to shatter my sense of immersion.

By the rules (from the Gamemastery Guide), I can walk into a random weapons shop in a metropolis and expect them to be able to pull any "minor magic item" off the shelf upon demand. According to Ultimate Equipment, minor weapons can include up to a +2 weapon (or +1 with a +1 ability).

So you're going to tell me that, without changing any rules, you're going to convince my character that the +1 sword he found is more special than the +1 keen sword he can walk into a shop and buy in a matter of minutes? And it took a "legendary wizard" to make it?

Nope.

If you want my character to believe, in-universe, that the +1 sword is special, you're going to have to change the rules that say he can walk into Wal-Mart and buy something better off the shelf.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The rules also include commentary on different types of play style concerning magic items. As a DM, you don't have to use the mega magic shop rules, you can create any sort of "feeling" you want, from magic-rich to limited availability. You can make magic primarily available through loot rather than magic shops. You can differentiate, and say things like low-level scrolls & potions are fairly available while other items are not - except through adventuring in ancient tombs, defeating enemies to grab their gear and the like. It's DM fiat, and that doesn't have to break the basic rules of the game or invalidate WBL assumptions, as long as the DM isn't too stingy.

I'm an old grognard, and don't like magic wall-marts. If you do, great. But magic wall-marts are not *required* to play Pathfinder, nor are they an inextricable part of the basic rules.

YMMV.

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Wheldrake wrote:

The rules also include commentary on different types of play style concerning magic items. As a DM, you don't have to use the mega magic shop rules, you can create any sort of "feeling" you want, from magic-rich to limited availability. You can make magic primarily available through loot rather than magic shops. You can differentiate, and say things like low-level scrolls & potions are fairly available while other items are not - except through adventuring in ancient tombs, defeating enemies to grab their gear and the like. It's DM fiat, and that doesn't have to break the basic rules of the game or invalidate WBL assumptions, as long as the DM isn't too stingy.

I'm an old grognard, and don't like magic wall-marts. If you do, great. But magic wall-marts are not *required* to play Pathfinder, nor are they an inextricable part of the basic rules.

YMMV.

Hey, you're talking to someone who wishes the rules didn't even have an Equipment chapter, let alone a Magic Item chapter, or especially WBL. No need to get defensive.

Issues can't be properly addressed if we're going to get sensitive about acknowledging where our own preferences deviate from the default assumptions printed in the rulebooks. Personally, I'd be taking magic-items-are-special even further than you are, but that doesn't change the fact that neither of our preferences fall within Pathfinder's default assumption.

Your idea is a variant/alternate baseline. Mine is an entire rewrite. Neither is the system's default assumption.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Didn't mean to sound sensitive or defensive.

I would argue that what you call "the system's default assumption" regarding magic items isn't an inextricable part of the basic rules. The CRB does include a fairly broad-minded and open discussion of different levels of magic item availability, so all of these levels are part of the basic rules. You don't *have* to have magic wallmart shops in order to claim that you are following the basic rules of Pathfinder, that's all I'm saying.

I found the OP's comments interesting, but unnecessarily complex. Personally, I prefer abstracting all of that. And when my players finally leave Sandpoint for Magnimar, I'll use an online random item generating tool to create a few magic shop inventories, so they at least have *some* access to items they didn't find during the campaign.

I find the whole concept of "WBL" to be kind of silly. But I guess some folks like to have that sort of guideline. It isn't an essential part of Pathfinder, by any means, and a PC not having the "expected" WBL in gear adorning his scrawny hide doesn't make the game impossible to play. By the same token, the entire CR system is inherently flawed. It may help some DMs to guage their encounters and their relative difficulty, but is sure isn't essential... or infallible.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I honestly don't even know what you mean by something being (or not being) an "essential part of Pathfinder". All I'm saying is that there are things which are the default: things which, although you can certainly remove them, the system is assuming they're in place.

For instance, you mention the CRB having a "fairly broad-minded and open discussion of different levels of magic item availability, so all of these levels are part of the basic rules."

But what I saw when I looked in the CRB just now was "These guidelines assume a setting with an average level of magic." After a bit of description, it went on to describe ways to deviate from that assumption (high magic or low magic). So yes, different variations are acknowledged, but only one of them is "assumed" by default.

So again, I don't know what you mean by saying that such-and-such isn't "an essential part of Pathfinder". I point out a rule element that's explicitly mentioned as a default assumption in the CRB itself, and then you reply by saying it's not "essential". Do you just mean the game can still be played if you remove that element? If so, then what's the point of even pointing that out? It's not like I said otherwise, so you can't be trying to correct me. So, what, are you just trying to make sure I know that you can still run a good game without including X in it?

Do you see how that response comes across as sensitive?

But anyway, regardless of what terms you use to describe the standard assumptions of the system, the part that matters is that when someone comes here to ask for advice and doesn't mention any relevant houserules, that you can have some idea of where they're coming from so that you can frame your advice helpfully.

And the only way to do that is if we all acknowledge the system's defaults without getting caught up in whether or not one of those defaults is "essential".


When I started this topic I thought I would have initiated an original discussion. Then I understood (actually "realized", since I unconsciously knew) that my problem with "special items" was rather a problem with a very well known technical aspect of PF (and 3, and 3.5), which has been widely examined on this and other boards: WBL + Big Six (thank you guys for pointing me in the right direction).

The discussione is very technical and intersects with personal tastes, so it is difficult to keep it objective. I illustrated this issue, bringing the alternative WBL chart I linked above, with my players, and between the two more "technical" ones I found two different opinions: one, like me, preferred a rare magic items environment, the other preferred a big six scenario. Everybody agreed enriching magic items would be good, even if their PC are rich and well equipped.

Someone at Wizards of the Coast must have my same tastes on this matter because I really like their interpretation of magic items environment. Still, this is not the final solution of the matter because someone who enjoys going around like a Christmas Tree may prefer a PF setting.

Final thought: I will probably keep magic items environment "standard" for this campaign, but I will keep thinking about it and try to integrate those 3.5 rules in my view. Maybe they will come useful in the future. in the meanwhile, I will try to add details to the magic items in current adventure (Kingmaker), enriching their description with unique details as some of you suggested. I know there are tables for these minor characteristics in the 5e DM guide. Do you know any other sources?


Jiggy wrote:
stuff...

Bro... I don't think your need for the level of specificity you want is really conducive to the thread. Also, since the GMG was not written or printed alongside the CRB, I fail to see why those rules hold so much weight against the vagueness of the core system. It's cool that you want to help, but being so high strung about it just makes things unnecessarily tense. Goozfrabah.

OP: I personally believe that the solution to this problem is unique to each group. Some groups may prefer the videogame style "random treasure" > sell "trash" loot > upgrade gear model, while other people want treasure to be hand-picked by the DM every time and carefully selected to match each player (yikes).

Personally, I make up my own unique magic items and throw gold values out the window. A good resource is the spell section of the book; a sword hilt with a command word for activating a permanent flame blade spell (maybe cast with metamagic to make it a different energy type) is fun, interesting for a little while, and at 1d8+X damage it isn't going to break your game balance. How you run your game as far as the challenges you present to your players is going to dictate the utility of magic items.

If you find that your players heavily prefer very generalized items (cloak of resistance, ring of protection, etc) then I would recommend throwing in some very specialized challenges for them to help them reconsider more interesting items that don't appear to have the variety of uses they prize so highly. Don't be overt, and don't make it so difficult that they can't figure out how to deal with those challenges, but make them think twice about selling that fur-lined armor that grants resistance only to cold attacks by unleashing a sudden and unseasonal winter storm brought on by a maniac arctic druid. That sort of thing.

If you prefer the constraints of tables with ranges and die rolls, that's cool too, but my personal advice would be against that route unless you want to occasionally roll random loot (which I use the Ultimate Equipment tables for, and I usually do this as a kind of "lottery" when my PCs find a huge stash of loot with a number of magic items in it). Note that rolling random loot, which is supported by the game's rules and follows loosely along the lines of a certain price range, can still throw curve balls to your WBL if the d% rolls fall just right.


Someone has already suggested adding ability, to hit and damage, and deflection bonuses by level to the characters. You can just drop the individual Big 6 ability boosting items from so called magic shops. Replace them with custom items, such as an alchemical silver star knife with the returning property.

I never used magic shops. Rather pawn shops, general stores, and other places will have occasional random items. Churches will have healing potions. A church might make a wand of cure light because everyone knows monsters are real. If adventurers don't outlive the monsters, the monsters will come raiding.

When it comes to non boring things, most of the people who post homebrew are like Hobbits. Mi homebrew, su homebrew. A peddler might have been through The Cleaves and picked up something.


I think the default city or large town would generally carry pretty basic "Big 6" items. Here's why: what do adventurers do when they come through a town?

Buy. Everything.

Assuming there are numerous parties of adventures (and in multiple Adventure Paths there are NPCs whose backstories mention them being adventurers), people would probably start recognizing that adventurers come in with a lot of disposable income, want specific items, kill all of the bad stuff nearby, and then move on. This has led me to believe that there would be a serious "Adventure Tourism" industry focused on producing only the items that adventurers (especially lower-level ones, as they'd likely be more common) frequently buy.

That's all just theory, though, and something I like to use in my home campaigns. When I considered it for a bit it made a lot of sense.


What does "OP" mean? Sorry but acronyms still puzzle me sometimes.


Galeazzo wrote:
What does "OP" mean? Sorry but acronyms still puzzle me sometimes.

The way it was used above it means "Original Poster" aka whoever started this topic.

Another use of it is overpowered aka when something is too strong or too good to be in the game. However what is OP/broken is often subjective.


Thanks wraithstrike.

Foghammer wrote:
If you find that your players heavily prefer very generalized items (cloak of resistance, ring of protection, etc) then I would recommend throwing in some very specialized challenges for them to help them reconsider more interesting items that don't appear to have the variety of uses they prize so highly.

I really like this idea. We run only published adventures, sometimes I write short pieces of adventure but it's quite rare. Published adventures have this kind of behavior, sometimes, to make some item special. When they do it, they also ensure that the magic item is good enough that PC don't throw it away. I don't use many tables, I like printed treasures, they have a good balance of usual "big six" stuff and more random and unusual things. My only regret is seeing all the treasure soon converted in stat boosting items...

More ideas I ran across that I should flesh out before full introduction in the game:

Without rewriting any rules, I could make the act of selling magic items more challenging. Nothing too complicated, a couple of checks to see how long would it take to sell an item and how much of the original price would be earned. This would discourage players from selling everything, encourage them to make use of unsold items, or just delay the progression towards an ad hoc dull equipment. I thought my players would have seen it as a forcing, but they almost proposed it after a little talk.

Talismanic components (Ultimate Campaign) may be a nice idea to control item creation in a campaign such as Kingmaker where time is not a problem. They need to be implemented in a simple system though, because what is proposed in the book is not easy to use.

I'm waiting for Pathfinder Unchained scalable items: I've read about them from other sources, they are a way to personalize treasure hoards with very special stuff, now I would like to see what Paizo suggests.


Galeazzo wrote:

Quote:

DM: «You find in the chest a weird helm, carved from the skull of a mighty stag. It seems to emit a little light in the dark, and when you stare at its empty eyes you almost feel observed. It emits a faint divination aura.
Player 1: «Value?» *spellcraft check*
DM: «About 20.000 gp.»
Player 1: «Good. Player 2, clean it and wrap it up, we sell it tomorrow, my sword needed a +5 upgrade.»

This happens primarily because "named items" are often very overpriced, in combination with laughable DCs if the have offensive capabilities.

-No, if you can afford a 20.000 GP item, a DC 16 Fort-Save is nothing you would want to spend a Standart Action on.
-A cool item, with some conditions under which need to be fulfilled so it shows full power, but priced as if these noticeable ad often relevant restrictions would NOT exist.
-Or simply& most often: 9.000 GP for this effect? Nah, thanks. Worth 3.000 at best. Rather have 4.500GP to spens on really usefull stuff.

All this leads to that very often people rather sell Fluff-Items full of "cool lore" and spend their gold on reliable, but bland stuff like a +3 Sword #142


As a GM, I like getting rid of the "Bloodbath & Beyond" magic marts as a general idea. Supermarkets in medieval-style fantasy always wore at my suspension of disbelief. (As an aside: while there are, I'm certain, some historical examples, the supply needs of such a place would be difficult during the age of pre-industrial transport and pre-assembly line. [This does not mean that it's any less immersion breaking than dragons or outsiders or 20th-level Monks not aging for someone else; it's just one of the peeves I have with low- to mid-fantasy. High fantasy probably should have them, as magic is so ubiquitous that it should really be renamed "technology" in those settings, in my opinion.] Wow, I might've derailed things a bit there...sorry...)

The alternate rules for 3.5 linked above are great; thank you to Galeazzo for posting that. Another potential thing to look at is the Vow of Poverty from 3.5: I know it got a bad rap as it was very game-breaking for Monks, but it did have a fairly good look at non-magic-item boosts. It'd need some re-tweaking (and the above link does that better than I could, I think), but it might be worth a try.

Many of the suggestions here are wonderful. Personally, I prefer either a lower-power setting (E6/E8 Pathfinder is fun for me) or more flavor text for magic items. The former is easier on me as a GM (fewer odd synergistic interactions to take account of, which means easier encounter, treasure, and plot planning), but the latter is more fun for my players (yep, I've got three good ones: all three are wonderful min/maxxers--one's actually the guy I hand potential houserules to and say, "Break this," before implementing 'em--and love their toys, but are also very good at being immersed in character).

Wow, parenthetical statements much? Sorry 'bout that.

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