Special Materials and shields as weapons in PFS


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Hi all

I am not sure if this should go in the general PF discussion threads or in the PFS threads, but as I am after advice specifically for PFS I though I would put it here.

The Question:
I am wanting to purchase a special Material shield and eventually enchant it as a weapon. Mithral and Darkwood both state that the object is masterwork. If I was to purchase a darkwood or Mithral shield and then start to add shield enhancements and weapon enhancements (understand they need to be added separately) would the special material count as masterwork for both.

I would expect a Darkwood heavy shield would count as masterwork for being a shield, but you would then need to pay 300gp to also have it Masterwork as a weapon. (As that is not its primary purpose). At least that is how I would run it at a home game.

Do we have an idea on how it would work in PFS?

Thanks for your help all.

Cheers
Taffy


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I would just pay the extra 300 now just so that your 30,000 gp item doesn't get ruled out of existence later.


Two separate answers for two separate materials. Darkwood requires you pay the masterwork cost. Mithral includes the masterwork cost in the material.

Darkwood:

Quote:
To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.
Mithral:
Quote:
Weapons and armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.


I'd charge you twice. An item is masterwork for a purpose, not masterwork generally. A masterwork lockpick gives a bonus to disable device, it isn't also a masterwork weapon (even though you could stab someone with it in a pinch).

Masterwork armor is specially made to move easily and reduce the armor check penalty. No reason that would give a +1 to hit.

Sczarni

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As this is a rules question, the best place would be in the Rules Questions forum, so I'll flag it to go there.

That said, regarding shields, you only need to pay +150gp for a masterwork shield. Darkwood and Mithral shields are already masterwork.

You do NOT need to pay for another +300gp. The only requirement for a shield to be enchanted is that it be masterwork.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
That said, regarding shields, you only need to pay +150gp for a masterwork shield. Darkwood and Mithral shields are already masterwork.

True, though when calculating cost you pay the 150gp for masterwork then 10gp/lb for darkwood, whereas Mithral includes the masterworking in the 1500gp cost.

Quote:
You do NOT need to pay for another +300gp. The only requirement for a shield to be enchanted is that it be masterwork.

I would disagree with this part. Shields have two ways of being masterworked as a shield for defense and a shield for offense. Take darkwood as the easier example. If you pay for a darkwood heavy wooden shield at 7gp + 150gp +100gp (total 257gp), you have only masterworked it in the defensive aspect (perfectly fine, unless you want to add offensive enchants), you would need to instead pay 7+150+100+300 (total 557gp) if you wanted it masterworked both ways.

(While it is harder to break down with Mithral I believe it should just be an extra 300 (total 1800gp), though if you only wanted a weapon that weighed 15 lbs (same as a heavy steel shield) it would cost 7500gp)

Edit: As a caveat, with darkwood if you only want offensive enchantments you could also pay 7+300+100 (total 407gp)

And the reason I think mithral I would be 1500 + 300, is you could pay for masterwork transformation (though it would be your only one available, until it was enchanted)

Sczarni

First off, Mithral is only +1000gp when making shields. Not +1500gp.

And, since the rules for pricing Darkwood were already quoted, I didn't see a reason to type them out again.

Secondly...

Just as with weapons, you can purchase or craft masterwork versions of armor or shields. Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1.

A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal cost for that type of armor or shield.

The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.

All magic armors and shields are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality.

You can't add the masterwork quality to armor or a shield after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork item.

Even if you wished to pay another 300gp for a masterwork shield, it would do you no good, as a masterwork shield "never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls".


I have a character that has a darkwood shield that she bashes with. What I did to avoid any confusion is...

Got a masterwork darkwood shield paying the 150gp for masterwork, and darkwood masterwork shield spikes, paying 300gp for masterwork. The spikes increase the shield damage by one size category.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:

First off, Mithral is only +1000gp when making shields. Not +1500gp.

Sorry, I didn't check both sources for mithral pricing, but oddly there is a discrepancy from UE, which I had closer than the CRB. In the CRB shields are 1000, in UE they are listed as 1500.

For the second part, I agree that the 150 masterwork doesn't make a shield better for shield bashing. But as a shield is also listed as a weapon (in the martial weapons table (both in the CRB and UE) and in the close fighter group) I see no reason it can't be masterworked as such.

Ultimate Equipment, pq. 11 wrote:
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

To be made into a magic weapon, it would have to be able to be enchanted, which means it would have to been masterworked (as a weapon) to my mind.

Sczarni

BartonOliver wrote:
I agree that the 150 masterwork doesn't make a shield better for shield bashing. But as a shield is also listed as a weapon (in the martial weapons table (both in the CRB and UE) and in the close fighter group) I see no reason it can't be masterworked as such.

I see no reason why it should be done at all. It's already a masterwork item. No rule calls out that you have to pay the masterwork cost twice.

BartonOliver wrote:
Ultimate Equipment, pq. 11 wrote:
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
To be made into a magic weapon, it would have to be able to be enchanted, which means it would have to been masterworked (as a weapon) to my mind.

It states that the [already masterwork for +150gp] shield can be made into a magic weapon. Not that you'd need to start with a brand new +450gp shield to make it so.

Silver Crusade

How do these work with Klar and Tekko-Kagi?

Sczarni

A Klar, in its description, is treated as a "Light Spiked Shield", so it'd be no different.

I'm unfamiliar with Tekko-Kagi and will leave that to someone else to answer.

Grand Lodge

Ok, why would you be able to pay less for a shield to be a masterwork weapon then if you masterworked any other weapon? (Just like masterworking a cestus for attacking you pay the weapon price not armor price) - Also, masterworking it as armor gives you no benefit as you pointed out. So at minimum you would need to masterwork it as a weapon if you wanted that bonus.

From here I'm leaving off special materials:

I see no reason a masterworked shield (weapon) would improve the ACP of a shield or allow you to enchant the shield as armor. Since, weapons don't have an ACP or increase AC.

Vice versa I see no reason a shield masterworked as armor would allow you to improve your attack ('never provides bonus on attack or damage rolls'). Armor isn't used to attack so it doesn't help your attack.

Shields are an oddity since they are both armor and weapons, if you want to use a shield both ways (say from Improved Shield bash) you need to pay for both sets of abilities. Functionally like a double weapon has two sides that are enchanted/masterworked separately, the shield (armor) and shield (weapon) are separate entities that exist in a single physical object.


@Barton,

If this is for PFS, I would follow BNW's advice and pay to MW both sides. It's simply not worth arguing with a GM about whether your 10k shield can use the magic weapon enchantments because you didn't pay 300gp back on day 1.

The whole "shield as a weapon" if you don't put on spikes, is one of many, many gaps in the Pathfinder rules set. They are trying to straddle the line between stopping people from double dipping on enchantments while still allowing people to go all Captain America.

Grand Lodge

N N 959 wrote:

@Barton,

If this is for PFS, I would follow BNW's advice and pay to MW both sides. It's simply not worth arguing with a GM about whether your 10k shield can use the magic weapon enchantments because you didn't pay 300gp back on day 1.

The whole "shield as a weapon" if you don't put on spikes, is one of many, many gaps in the Pathfinder rules set. They are trying to straddle the line between stopping people from double dipping on enchantments while still allowing people to go all Captain America.

This is what I've been saying the whole time.

Sczarni

BartonOliver wrote:
Ok, why would you be able to pay less for a shield to be a masterwork weapon then if you masterworked any other weapon?

You're not.

You're getting a masterwork shield, with a reduced ACP, instead of +1 to-hit.

Sczarni

BartonOliver wrote:
Just like masterworking a cestus for attacking you pay the weapon price not armor price

A cestus is only listed as a weapon.

Sczarni

BartonOliver wrote:
I see no reason a masterworked shield (weapon) would improve the ACP of a shield or allow you to enchant the shield as armor. Since, weapons don't have an ACP or increase AC.

I never said that paying +300gp would do any such thing, and no rule I am aware of states as such, either.


If a shield must be enchanted on both sides as a magic item, and an item must be masterwork before it can be enchanted, what makes you think you must not buy the shield as a shield and a weapon, therefore paying 450 gp for both masterwork prices?

Saying you can buy the masterwork shield for 150 (which is listed under masterwork armors), and then enchant it as a weapon is ludicrous.

Sczarni

One way to settle this would be to analyze the prices of specific magic shields in print, though after perusing the PRD entries for the CRB, UE, and ACG I can find none.

Sczarni

bigrig107 wrote:

what makes you think you must not buy the shield as a shield and a weapon, therefore paying 450 gp for both masterwork prices?

Saying you can buy the masterwork shield for 150 (which is listed under masterwork armors), and then enchant it as a weapon is ludicrous.

Because that's what the rule in the CRB that I quoted earlier states.

It does not state that you must pay 300gp, or craft it as a weapon. No such requirement is listed anywhere that I am aware of. A masterwork shield may simply be enchanted as a weapon (and won't have an enhancement bonus until it is).


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Nefreet, I think you are subscribing to a different paradigm. I view the shield as a dual weapon where one side can't be used as a weapon, but can be enchanted like armor.

The rules state that you can enchant the weapon side of a shield. As there is no listed exception, that means the weapon side of the shield must be masterworks a priori. Ergo, the need to pay for the shield to be both MW weapon/armor.

I'm not understanding why you don't come to the same conclusion.


I'd love to do so, but as most unique shields have unique abilities based on the specific item crafting rules for pricing, and I have less than no experience with these rules, I will defer to someone else.

Sczarni

N N 959 wrote:

Nefreet, I think you are subscribing to a different paradigm. I view the shield as a dual weapon where one side can't be used as a weapon, but can be enchanted like armor.

The rules state that you can enchant the weapon side of a shield. As there is no listed exception, that means the weapon side of the shield must be masterworks a priori. Ergo, the need to pay for the shield to be both MW weapon/armor.

I'm not understanding why you don't come to the same conclusion.

I've heard that logic before as well, but can find nothing to support the idea that shields should be treated as double weapons for purposes of pricing the masterwork cost.

If that is ever clarified in an FAQ or errata update, then cool, but I see no supporting evidence for it currently.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Merm7th wrote:

I have a character that has a darkwood shield that she bashes with. What I did to avoid any confusion is...

Got a masterwork darkwood shield paying the 150gp for masterwork, and darkwood masterwork shield spikes, paying 300gp for masterwork. The spikes increase the shield damage by one size category.

There are no such things as masterwork shield spikes, because all they do is modify the underlying weapon.

A masterwork shield is masterwork with or without spikes. You can't buy spikes and pick up a +1 TH, it's still a shield and masterwork shields don't get a bonus to hit.

A shield IS a weapon. A masterwork shield is masterwork for both purposes, defense and offense. There's no 'line' between the functions. Likewise, you never enchant shield spikes...you enchant the shield. The spikes change the shield, the shield is still what you hit with and what you enhance.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Frankly, I disagree with the reading that a shield is masterworked is enough for it to be masterworked both as a weapon and armor. Others obviously feel that it is. That's fine, it's just another example of where players could run into table variation. Since, the best way to prevent table variation in this case is an expenditure of 300 gold, I see no reason that a player shouldn't spend it.

Beyond that, an FAQ on this subject will probably be needed. (This is not the only thread this has come up in)

Example 1

Example 2

I'm sure I'm missing some as I only grabbed a couple quick examples. I remember it also being an issue with the Shield Champion archetype in a tangential manner.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
BartonOliver wrote:
Just like masterworking a cestus for attacking you pay the weapon price not armor price
A cestus is only listed as a weapon.

This is true, I simply mentioned a cestus as it is a piece of actual armor. In Pathfinder is mentioned only as a weapon (possibly because gauntlets, cestus, etc are included in the armor sets (thus when you masterwork your armor set it would include the cestus) already, so you are buying a piece a la carte for a different purpose). My fault for not making that explicit.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The masterwork pricing for shields specifically mentions that the shield is a weapon, yet does not gain a bonus to hit. This implies that even though its a masterwork weapon, it's an exception to the normal masterwork weapon rules, else they wouldn't need to mention it.

There really isn't a question about it.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

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Aelryinth wrote:

The masterwork pricing for shields specifically mentions that the shield is a weapon, yet does not gain a bonus to hit. This implies that even though its a masterwork weapon, it's an exception to the normal masterwork weapon rules, else they wouldn't need to mention it.

There really isn't a question about it.

==Aelryinth

Since it is in the masterwork armor section, not the weapon section, some people, myself included, disagree or at least think there is room for clarification. In fact in the actual shield description it says shield enhancements don't affect a shield bash and goes on to say they can be magic weapons in their own right. If those are both true, I see no reason to believe a shield can't be upgraded just like any other weapon including the masterwork cost of a weapon. Additionally, but separately, a shield can be masterworked and enhanced as armor.

Also, stating something as fact (especially given examples above) does not make it true. (Unless of course you are the Pope or Neil Patrick Harris) There is obviously a question or everyone would be in agreement.


+1 Light Steel Shield (Enchanted as a Weapon)

Is it 2000g+150g+9g (2159g) for +1 to hit and damage and +1 to AC (if you have Improved Shield Bash). That is cheaper than any other +1 weapon in existence and also offers a bonus to AC?

Or is it 2000g+300g+9g (2309g) being the same price as +1 weapon, with the added bonus of giving you a +1 to AC?

+1 Light Steel Shield (Enchanted as Armor)

1000g+150g+9g for +2 to AC and -1 ACP (I don't think anyone is arguing this isn't the case).

+1 Light Steel Shield (Enchanted for both)

Is it 2000g+1000g+150g+9g (no longer cheaper than other +1 weapons, but now you have the equivalent of a +1 Weapon and a separate +1 Shield)?

Or is it 2000g+1000g+150g+300g+9g to cover all bases (you still end up cheaper than a +1 Weapon and a separate +1 Shield)?

My gut says that a +1 weapon shouldn't be cheaper than other +1 weapons and you should pay the price for both if you are going to enchant it for both.


Aelryinth wrote:

The masterwork pricing for shields specifically mentions that the shield is a weapon, yet does not gain a bonus to hit. This implies that even though its a masterwork weapon, it's an exception to the normal masterwork weapon rules, else they wouldn't need to mention it.

There really isn't a question about it.

==Aelryinth

There is a question about it. Here's what the PRD says about shields under the armor section,

Quote:
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right

So my +5 shield gets absolutely not bonus to attack with it if I haven't enchanted it as a weapon.

PRD on Magic Shields wrote:
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

It's black and white that you enchant the "weapon" aspect of the shield separately from the defensive aspect of the shield. That draws clear cut line between defensive function and offensive function. The critical focus is on "the cost of the enhancement bonus." Does that include the cost of making it masterworks as a weapon or has one already satisfied that hurdle?

As Barton points out, if one does not have to pay the MW weapon cost, then I've only payed 150 on the MW side and I can spend 2000gp to get a +1 magic weapon at 150gp cheaper than normal and it's doing double duty as a shield.

As there is no real world logic that governs this, it's an artistic decision by the developers. But the idea that there isn't a question about this is disingenuous at best and just plain asinine otherwise. Nowhere is it made clear that one is not required to masterworks the weapon aspect of the shield while it's made 100% clear I have to enchant the weapon aspect separately from the shield aspect.

As one of my characters totes a shield, I'd have no problem getting a discount on enchanting my shield as a weapon.

EDIT:
In fairness, I can see the dilemma in that if one has to pay the MW cost on the weapon side, then logically, this should allow a +1 attack bonus. I can see how some GMs might find that has been prohibited by the MW shield rules.

So either I get a 150gp off the magical weaponizing of the shield, or I get a +1 attack bonus if I MW the "weapon" at purchase.

Another question is can I magically enchant the weapon aspect without enchanting the armor aspect? +5 on attack and damage, but no magical bonus to armor?


N N 959 wrote:

@Barton,

If this is for PFS, I would follow BNW's advice and pay to MW both sides. It's simply not worth arguing with a GM about whether your 10k shield can use the magic weapon enchantments because you didn't pay 300gp back on day 1.

The whole "shield as a weapon" if you don't put on spikes, is one of many, many gaps in the Pathfinder rules set. They are trying to straddle the line between stopping people from double dipping on enchantments while still allowing people to go all Captain America.

If this is PFS, the enchantment of your shield is a documented purchase signed off by another PFSGM. You'll be covered, whether or not he compells you to cast Masterwork Transformation before you enchant your shield as a shield or as a weapon.

Btw, Darkwood items are already masterwork. So are mithril and adamantine items.

Here's a question. If you make an adamantine shield, does it give you any DR?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Here's a question. If you make an adamantine shield, does it give you any DR?

RAW, it does not. It would cost 3000g, and I would assume would bypass DR/Adamantine, but it only gives DR to Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor (of which a shield is not any of those things).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Quote:

Just as with weapons, you can purchase or craft masterwork versions of armor or shields. Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1.

A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal cost for that type of armor or shield.

The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.

All magic armors and shields are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. {Caveat: This would also automatically include if they are used as WEAPONS, because it doesn't exclude them!}

You can't add the masterwork quality to armor or a shield after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork item.

============================================

that's the relevant quote. You're looking at the wrong rules and area.

There is no line between 'masterwork armor' and 'masterwork shield/armor as weapon'. It's either masterwork, or it is not.

Shield is classified as masterwork armor for reasons of improvement. Because of that, it doesn't gain a +1 bonus to hit for being a masterwork weapon, i.e. it gets NONE of the bonuses of being a masterwork weapon, EXCEPT for the fact it's masterwork and it can be enhanced as a magic weapon.

If you like, you can consider the +300 gp cost vs the +150 gp cost differences being that '+1 TH' bonus that shields and armor do not get.

But they are still masterwork. They just don't get a non-magical weapon bonus.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Canthin wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Here's a question. If you make an adamantine shield, does it give you any DR?
RAW, it does not. It would cost 3000g, and I would assume would bypass DR/Adamantine, but it only gives DR to Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor (of which a shield is not any of those things).

This is correct.

I believe there might be a fighter archetype that gets DR from using a shield (other then at level 19, ugh, crappy capstone). But adamantine still does nothing but make it harder to sunder.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:
Quote:

Just as with weapons, you can purchase or craft masterwork versions of armor or shields. Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1.

A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal cost for that type of armor or shield.

The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.

All magic armors and shields are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. {Caveat: This would also automatically include if they are used as WEAPONS, because it doesn't exclude them!}

You can't add the masterwork quality to armor or a shield after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork item.

============================================

that's the relevant quote. You're looking at the wrong rules and area.

There is no line between 'masterwork armor' and 'masterwork shield/armor as weapon'. It's either masterwork, or it is not.

Shield is classified as masterwork armor for reasons of improvement. Because of that, it doesn't gain a +1 bonus to hit for being a masterwork weapon, i.e. it gets NONE of the bonuses of being a masterwork weapon, EXCEPT for the fact it's masterwork and it can be enhanced as a magic weapon.

If you like, you can consider the +300 gp cost vs the +150 gp cost differences being that '+1 TH' bonus that shields and armor do not get.

But they are still masterwork. They just don't get a non-magical weapon bonus.

==Aelryinth

Your quote doesn't directly contradict anything that's been said. Your quote points out that the MW quality of the "armor" does not provide a +1 attack bonus. Nobody is debating that. Your quote points out that if it's MW "armor" it doesn't get a bonus to hit. Again, not at issue.

What the quote does not prohibit or preclude is that when you enchant your shield as a weapon, which by RAW must be done separately from the armor, you have to include the cost of a MW weapon as you do with any other weapon. There is nothing in the rules which explicitly sets aside that requirement and the rules state unambiguously that the cost of weaponizing the shield is added to the shield cost. Ergo, it is entirely reasonably for a GM to conclude that you must pay the MW cost for the weapon separately for the shield.

And to wit, your quote does not explicitly preclude MWing the weapon. While it may be a logical conclusion that you can only MW an item for one purpose, there is no underlying reality which supports that. It's entirely reasonable for the game to decide you can MW the shield aspect, and then add additional crafting to make it function as a MW weapon. I don't know...this isn't physics, it's art.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The post explicitly notes that a masterwork shield is a masterwork weapon, but doesn't gain any bonuses for being such.

You are drawing lines where they do not exist.

The cost of a masterwork shield as weapon is part of a masterwork shield, period.

You are attempting to add something on which is completely irrelevant. Shields are armor and weapons. A masterwork shield is a masterwork armor and weapon, BUT does not get the bonus to hit.

Where exactly is this artificial line you are inserting supposed to go? It's already masterwork. End stop. You add the cost of a masterwork shield to the cost of the magic shield. If you already added that cost to the armor side, there's no need to add it twice...it's ALREADY ADDED. It gets tacked on to the front of the total cost of the item, it doesn't get tacked on twice!

I'm really not sure how you're interpreting this and making it so hard.

==Aelryinth

Sczarni

^ this is also how I view the matter.

I see no reason, or requirement, anywhere, to pay another 300gp, for anything.

The rules simply don't exist.


In the ARMOR section it is talking about adding Masterwork to ARMOR and when you do so, it doesn't get a Masterwork bonus to hit if used to attack. For being ARMOR.

In the WEAPON section it talks about adding Masterwork to a WEAPON gives you a +1 to hit. But it doesn't mention Armor anywhere (probably because weapons aren't sometimes used as armor the same way that armor is sometimes used as weapons).

Shields are both. The problem is they called out the MW properties in the armor section for shields. And didn't say anything about them as weapons in the weapon section.

I think it should have a similar line in the MW section of weapons that a shield made MW as a weapon doesn't get a reduction in ACP. If they did that, it would be 100% clear that it has to be done separately. So instead we have a half sided comment in one section (armor) about it not getting the weapon bonuses when you only spend the armor cost on making it MW. That is why there is confusion (and probably table variance) based on the fact that a shield CAN BE both a weapon and piece of armor.

It should also be noted that RAW Fighter Armor Training doesn't apply to Shields, but Weapon Training can. They are armor, but not armor, and they are weapons but not weapons. Thus the confusion.

Sovereign Court

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As I understand it, there is not such thing as a Masterwork Shield(Shield) or a Masterwork Shield(Weapon); there is only a Masterwork Shield.


Ascalaphus wrote:
As I understand it, there is not such thing as a Masterwork Shield(Shield) or a Masterwork Shield(Weapon); there is only a Masterwork Shield.

RAW there is no such thing as a +1 Magic Shield (Weapon) either.

Game Master Guide random item charts lists Shields under Magic Armor, but under Martial Weapons, it doesn't have Shield as an option.

Shields are GENERALLY only counted as Shields (they have their own bonus to AC, separate from Armor, they have their own chart on the Armor table, separate from the Armor types, they have "specific magic shields" listed in the Armor magic item section, etc.).

Being mentioned in one section, but not the other doesn't say "this is clear" to me. I could be alone, but it just doesn't make sense that you can use it as a weapon, enchant it as a weapon, but can't craft it as a weapon.


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Nefreet wrote:

^ this is also how I view the matter.

I see no reason, or requirement, anywhere, to pay another 300gp, for anything.

The rules simply don't exist.

There's a gap somewhere in the rules that needs to be filled more or less on personal whim, each with their own silliness.

Masterwork shield is automatically a masterwork weapon: has the same rules silliness as trying to get a +1 to attack with a masterwork cooking set: substituting one kind of masterwork for another, ignores the "a masterwork shield is never a masterwork weapon" line and Makes a shield the cheapest mw weapon around.

Masterwork shield is NEVER a masterwork weapon: Brings up the question of how we ever get shields as magic weapons (which you can explicitly do), or if you can enchant a mithral frying pan.

Costs 300 extra isn't listed anywhere


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Costs 300 extra isn't listed anywhere

...except in the section for Masterwork WEAPONS. So it isn't a stretch to think that if you are going to enchant it as a weapon (which you can explicitly do) you need to have a MW weapon first (which costs 300g more than a normal weapon).

Sczarni

Canthin wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Costs 300 extra isn't listed anywhere
...except in the section for Masterwork WEAPONS. So it isn't a stretch to think that if you are going to enchant it as a weapon (which you can explicitly do) you need to have a MW weapon first (which costs 300g more than a normal weapon).

Except for the line stating that masterwork shields can be enchanted as magical weapons.


Nefreet wrote:
Canthin wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Costs 300 extra isn't listed anywhere
...except in the section for Masterwork WEAPONS. So it isn't a stretch to think that if you are going to enchant it as a weapon (which you can explicitly do) you need to have a MW weapon first (which costs 300g more than a normal weapon).
Except for the line stating that masterwork shields can be enchanted as magical weapons.

Maybe this is what I'm missing then. The only thing I can find is "An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."

Doesn't say anything about MW Shield can be enchanted as a weapon. Only that the non-MW shield can be made into a magic weapon "in its own right". I interpret this to mean "follow the rules for magic weapons" (which would require a MW weapon. MW weapon rules say +300g).

Maybe I'm not being flexible enough to consider a masterwork piece of armor as a masterwork weapon if that armor is used as a weapon. The text seems very contradictory.


Nefreet wrote:
Canthin wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Costs 300 extra isn't listed anywhere
...except in the section for Masterwork WEAPONS. So it isn't a stretch to think that if you are going to enchant it as a weapon (which you can explicitly do) you need to have a MW weapon first (which costs 300g more than a normal weapon).
Except for the line stating that masterwork shields can be enchanted as magical weapons.

You're not enchanting the armor to be a weapon, your'e enchanting the item to be a weapon separately. This is what draws the distinct line that Aely says does not exist. It does exist and its explicitly stated that the weaponizing is separate.

It's logically sound to argue that you can MW the shield for defense and for offense. Things that make the shield a high quality shield can be physically different from things that make the shield a high quality weapon e.g. rebalancing, reinforcing stress points. strengthening the grip for swinging, etc.

It's logically inconsistent for game to say you can enchant it as a magic weapon, but you can't enhance it as a weapon non-magically. Because this is essentially what you all are claiming.

All that having been said, if Paizo wants to save me 300gp, I'm all for it. if the PDT wants to tell me I don't have to spend another 300gp, Done and done.

In any event, those of us playing PFS are going to suffer the ravages of Table Variation if you don't pay the 300gp. If the PDT comes back and says you can't do it, then you get your 300gp back and in the meantime, you won't have to deal with a GM trying to yoink your attack bonus.


Referance

Magic Armor wrote:

Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).

A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

Now mind you this isn't for PFS, but I do think it does validate what people are asking about. You can enchant a shield to do damage, but you must add it to the +1 via cost. So a +1 attack/+1 AC shield is a +2 enhancement. Think that is what people are getting at?


CrescentCrux wrote:


Now mind you this isn't for PFS, but I do think it does validate what people are asking about. You can enchant a shield to do damage, but you must add it to the +1 via cost. So a +1 attack/+1 AC shield is a +2 enhancement. Think that is what people are getting at?

I don't think so. My understanding is the cost of making your shield a +1 weapon is the same cost as enchanting a weapon. It's irrelevant if there is any existing magical defensive enhancements on the shield. What we are asking is whether the shield needs to be a MW "weapon."


N N 959 wrote:
CrescentCrux wrote:


Now mind you this isn't for PFS, but I do think it does validate what people are asking about. You can enchant a shield to do damage, but you must add it to the +1 via cost. So a +1 attack/+1 AC shield is a +2 enhancement. Think that is what people are getting at?

I don't think so. My understanding is the cost of making your shield a +1 weapon is the same cost as enchanting a weapon. It's irrelevant if there is any existing magical defensive enhancements on the shield. What we are asking is whether the shield needs to be a MW "weapon."

"A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC"

That line there. Says ONLY the cost of enhancement added to cost, not the masterwork Quality.


So here is a rule in the PRD which I believes sets the precedent for paying the MW weapon cost...

PRD - Double Weapon wrote:
Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp).

If an item can only be given the MW quality once, then you shouldn't have to pay double for a double weapon. This is rule means that part of an item can be made MW while the rest of it is not. And before anyone tries to argue you reality about two separate blades on a double sword, I'll hit you with a Quarterstaff...both ends.

PRD: Quarterstaff wrote:
Quarterstaff: A quarterstaff is a simple piece of wood, about 5 feet in length.

Q-staff is a "simple" piece of wood but counts as a double weapon. Which means you can MW one and and not the other. That leads me to believe a shield can operate the same way. I'd be happy if it didn't, but I'm leaning towards it does.

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