Question on Trickster Path Ability Perfect Lie.


Rules Questions


First things first, I did conduct a search on the forums and did not find any answers, so decided to make a thread.

Secondly, I had a player in the game that I run recently take the Trickster Path ability Perfect Lie. The ability reads "When telling a lie you expend one use of Mythic Power to make the lie indiscernible from the truth by both Sense Motive and magic. Obvious proof of your falsehood still reveals the lie for what it is, but in the absence of proof, those who hear your lie believe it." Having read both the Bluff Skill and the Sense Motive Skill I do not fully understand how this ability works.

The way we are reading this is like the scene from A New Hope where Obi-Wan tells the Stormtroopers "These aren't the droids you are looking for" and they believe him. Last night, I let the player use this without any kind of roll because as I'm reading it, they auto-fail their sense motive checks if it "there is no obvious proof" and auto-pass otherwise.

So the question, should this ability require an opposed roll or does it simply work because the player spends Mythic Power to use it?


Yeah, it simply works. This is the way a lot of mythic powers work.


I don't really understand the confusion. No, they never have to roll Bluff. For one Mythic Power, the target always believes you, no roll needed, unless they have proof of the lie, in which case, they automatically disbelieve (and it is implied that people disbelieve without a roll normally in such a situation, too).


Well think about this situation: Players are walking up to the BBEG's lair. The guards yell at them to halt and state their business.

Player: I'm bringing these prisoners to the boss.

Under the rules for Bluff/Sense Motive he would normally make a roll contested by the NPCs roll. Using this power, he uses a point of Mythic Power and the NPC will believe him unless I decide he doesn't. At which point, it develops into an hour long discussion regarding whether or not there was sufficient evidence to count as "obvious". Repeat for all future encounters.

I guess I have contention with the vagueness of the wording of the ability.


Hm. Interesting.

I'd suggest that there be a "bluff" or "disguise" check for making them look like (or believed to be) prisoners.

It doesn't even have to be a good bluff or disguise check. Throw some rags and dirt on top of the adventurers (making sure to dramatically smudge the pretty girl of the group for dramatic effect), and give a minor cut to the fighter's arm or something (unless the fighter is the pretty girl, in which case she still gets the smudge, and it's the gruff cleric that gets it instead*). Maybe wrap some chains or rope around their arms (don't actually clap them in manacles or anything, just loosely "wrap" it, like, once, over their wrists, so they can escape at any time - kind of like how the manacles had no hope of holding Chewy in A New Hope, because they didn't fit).

As a GM, in this situation, I'd say, out of character: "Look, the PCs look 'too perfect' right now. It's going to count as 'obvious proof' if they don't even remotely look like prisoners. You could make a disguise check or something to make it look like they are..." and then secretly never have the guards roll a Perception check against the disguise as the PC has expended a use of mythic power.

Another way of running it would be comparing the modifiers and just presuming that the mythic power automatically makes the target want to believe you and drunk or impaired, and allows you to "possess convincing proof" for a nice +20. If the PC takes 20, would the bluff auto-succeed? If so, let it. If, on the other hand, the lie is impossible, it imposes a -20, negating the bonus, and forcing you to roll the bluff normally.

Be aware that the second is just an adjucation for "how 'obvious' is 'obvious' in this case?" if you feel its needed.

Really, ignore the arguments - the ability is written quite well, and is fine, to me, at present, even in your situation. If you felt it was "obvious proof", however, you should let the PCs know before they make the attempt, maybe allow a retcon to allow them to do the disguise thing, first.

Hope you have great gaming! :D

* I'm totally making these characters up in my head. The point is, you know what I'm talking about. You've seen movies.


If the character "taking the prisoners to the boss" isn't in any way disguised as a guard or other person affiliated with the boss, the guards are under no obligation to let them in. I mean, yeah, they will totally believe that he's taking them to the boss, but the heck do they care? They don't know this person, and he clearly doesn't work there. This ability doesn't let a player completely stop thinking situations through. Of coarse, if they said no, put their glaives up, and he said "You guys don't recognize me? Boss and I go way back, and he's expecting me. I'm running late, so if you don't want me to tell him you guys were the reason I ran behind schedule, let me pass, please." the ability would probably work - although, that's more of an intimidate. The GM would be completely within his rights to either call for intimidate, or at least have the guards escort them inside. This ability doesn't let you dominate anyone, so make sure NPC's are responding correctly to bluffs.


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Mythic JMD031 wrote:

Well think about this situation: Players are walking up to the BBEG's lair. The guards yell at them to halt and state their business.

Player: I'm bringing these prisoners to the boss.

Under the rules for Bluff/Sense Motive he would normally make a roll contested by the NPCs roll. Using this power, he uses a point of Mythic Power and the NPC will believe him unless I decide he doesn't. At which point, it develops into an hour long discussion regarding whether or not there was sufficient evidence to count as "obvious". Repeat for all future encounters.

I guess I have contention with the vagueness of the wording of the ability.

I have contention that you would argue to deny a player that wasted both a mythic path ability and a point of precious mythic power on such a weak ability the opportunity to use it.

How could there be any evidence against that lie? The BBEG would have to have given his guards a note saying, "I definitely am not receiving any prisoners today." There's no other possible proof.

The proof clause isn't to stop plausible lies like that, it's to stop "I swear this boiling lava is really a refreshing cool swimming pool and there is a huge cash reward for you if you dive all the way to the bottom." It's there to prevent non-combat murders-with-words, not reasonable bluffs at the bad guys' gates.

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Eh, you can still get away with "murder with words" if you're creative.

"Quick! The room is filling up with a colorless, odorless lethal poison gas! You'll be dead in minutes if you don't drink this antidote!"

Have a vial of poison handy to give them. Or acid. You get the idea. By the time there is proof of the lie it's too late.


ryric wrote:

Eh, you can still get away with "murder with words" if you're creative.

"Quick! The room is filling up with a colorless, odorless lethal poison gas! You'll be dead in minutes if you don't drink this antidote!"

Have a vial of poison handy to give them. Or acid. You get the idea. By the time there is proof of the lie it's too late.

I just grabbed Perfect Lie for my LE Alchemist Plague Doctor.

That is an AMAZING idea. I'm going to use it in my campaign. As for the earlier poster calling it weak: Yes in combat it has no use, but for subterfuge / intrigue / story it sticks out as one of the single most powerful abilities in the book as far as out-of-combat goes.

I agree with the sentiment that they should at least try to 'look the part' of being prisoners. Maybe even smack one of them for 'disrespecting the gate guard'. You'd make that guard's day AND get in the castle.

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