Albion, The Eye |
Hello everyone,
I have heard a lot of good things about the gestalt between Barbarian/Scarred Witch Doctor, and Bloodrager/Scarred Witch Doctor.
I do not really have much experience with gestalt characters (even though I understand the rules and logic behind it), but I have a concept of a wildman combatant, coming down from the steppes, who commands but physical prowess, and also mystical powers, as if a champion of his tribe - and one of the gestalt mixes above seems to be a perfect fit.
I am however unsure as how to build them - namely, what would be the main differences in how those gestalts are played? Would you say one is more 'efficient' than the others? In which aspect?
I have read something somewhere about a Bloodrager feat that allows you to cast spells from another spellcaster class you possess while raging, but cannot find it anywhere - did I dream about it? :D
Last, but not least, I am kind of a sucker for skills (as some of you may already know), so I got to think if a mix between Skald/Scarred Witch Doctor would make any sense?
Thank you for any possible feedback on the (perhaps newbie) questions above ;)
Orfamay Quest |
Hello everyone,
I have heard a lot of good things about the gestalt between Barbarian/Scarred Witch Doctor, and Bloodrager/Scarred Witch Doctor.
I can imagine. The Scarred Witch Doctor is essentially a con-based caster, but suffers from the usual squishy-caster syndrome in so many other ways -- low hit die, low BAB, poor weapon choice, et cetera.
Gestalt with Barbarian fixes all those weaknesses. The only real weakness that is left is the poor Reflex save.
The main issue is that you can't cast while raging -- ask your GM if you can use hexes while raging.
I am however unsure as how to build them - namely, what would be the main differences in how those gestalts are played? Would you say one is more 'efficient' than the others? In which aspect?
Well, the Bloodrager is already a Barbarian/Sorcerer blend, so he trades some fighting ability for limited spellcasting that can be cast while raging. Frankly, I think there's little enough synergy between the sorcerer abilities and the witch abilities that it wouldn't be worth it. By the time you get the sorcerer spells and abilities, the witch will already have outstripped them.
Albion, The Eye |
Thank you for the feedback Orfamay - I'm guessing that Arcane Spell Failure will also be an issue, unless I am constantly casting Mage Armor?
I believe the best option would be to pile Invulnerable Rager on top of Barbarian, to shore up the defenses?
And thanks for pointing out the weak Reflex save - I guess it goes against the rule that says the classes you combine in gestalt should make up perfect saves (or maybe it is not a rule, but something to aim for?).
kestral287 |
The big difference is spells vs. hexes.
Barbarian/Doctor is excellent with hexes. Rage boosts Hex DC, you only really care about two stats, go to town with big-DC Hexes and Barbarian martial prowess.
Bloodrager/Doctor can take the Mad Magic feat to easily use Witch spells in a rage (Barbarian can access the feat, but it's a lot harder to use effectively). However, three stats (you want at least some Cha; how much depends on what kind of Bloodrager spells you want) means your Con will be slightly lower.
EDIT: Three good saves is nice, but far from necessary. Class synergies matter far more than saves. ASF will be an issue, though moreso for the Bloodrager-- the Barbarian isn't likely to cast much in combat so he can mitigate it. Still, Barbarians aren't known for their AC.
Orfamay Quest |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you for the feedback Orfamay - I'm guessing that Arcane Spell Failure will also be an issue, unless I am constantly casting Mage Armor?
Not with hexes [evil grin].
Otherwise, yes. There are tricks that wizards can use to get moderate armor without a significant arcane spell failure, but they're expensive, and the point of gestalt, as you can imagine, is that the combination of classes should be able to give you what you want without needing lots of gear atop it.
And thanks for pointing out the weak Reflex save - I guess it goes against the rule that says the classes you combine in gestalt should make up perfect saves (or maybe it is not a rule, but something to aim for?).
Yeah, it's a guideline. Perfect saves, full BAB, and at least d10 hit points.... otherwise you're leaving something on the table. But if you've got a really great other synergy (Sorcadin doesn't need a good Reflex save, because Cha-to-saves covers it, for example), no worries.
Albion, The Eye |
The big difference is spells vs. hexes.
Barbarian/Doctor is excellent with hexes. Rage boosts Hex DC, you only really care about two stats, go to town with big-DC Hexes and Barbarian martial prowess.
Bloodrager/Doctor can take the Mad Magic feat to easily use Witch spells in a rage (Barbarian can access the feat, but it's a lot harder to use effectively). However, three stats (you want at least some Cha; how much depends on what kind of Bloodrager spells you want) means your Con will be slightly lower.
EDIT: Three good saves is nice, but far from necessary. Class synergies matter far more than saves. ASF will be an issue, though moreso for the Bloodrager-- the Barbarian isn't likely to cast much in combat so he can mitigate it. Still, Barbarians aren't known for their AC.
First of all, thanks for the feedback.
I'm working with a rolled stat set, which may change things - 18, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10.
I have two questions: why is the ASF more of an issue for the Bloodrager? And how exactly would I address the AC issue on the Barbarian, in your opinion?
Thanks for pointing out the Cha detail regarding Bloodrager - I'm guessing I would need at least a 12 in Cha off the bat?
In any case, what class do you think synergies better? Barbarian or Bloodrager (I am aware they are mechanically different, but conceptually they could fit a similar theme)?
(Sorcadin doesn't need a good Reflex save, because Cha-to-saves covers it, for example).
Yes... I have heard legends about Sorcadins :D
Archpaladin Pardieu |
I want to point out the Untouchable Rager Archetype for the Bloodrager, and the Spelleater Archetype.
Spell Resistance means you have a chance to not take a spell to the face when you really can't afford it and it grows stronger as you level.
Fast Healing in place of DR and Uncanny Dodge is harsh but could get you on your feet faster and means you will stablize almost instantly.
Burning spell slots (You already traded your spells for Spell Resistance but it never says your spell slots) for an on the spot healing spell is nice.
Think about picking up Fast Healer I know the feat tax sucks but adding half your con bonus to ANY magical healing means you turn that Fast healing up a notch quick and means those spells you use on the spot get a bit better.
Doesn't remove the problem of Arcane Spell Failure but there are feats that reduce that by 20% at level 7 and Mithral reduces it by 10% so that opens up a few new options in armor.
Orfamay Quest |
I have two questions: why is the ASF more of an issue for the Bloodrager?
Less barbarian == less beef and hence less damage output. The only useful spells you'll be able to cast with a bloodrager are utility, defensive and buff spells. The witch has a hell of a lot of useful offensive spells, but you need to cast them.
So, basically, taking the 'rager limits your ability to "HULK SMASH!" your way out of trouble a bit, in exchange for minor spells.
In any case, what class do you think synergies better? Barbarian or Bloodrager (I am aware they are mechanically different, but conceptually they could fit a similar theme)?
In my opinion, Barb/Doctor has better synergy. Adding a touch of sorcerer doesn't really help out a witch build much.
Jaunt |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're looking at 3 separate issues, I think.
1) ASF: deal with it by relying on Hexes. SWD is known for con casting, but I swear, that's not the only good thing about him. The Witch list is a little weak anyway. Try and keep your ASF lower for emergencies, do longterm buffs out of combat, outside of armor.
2) Casting while Raging: The difference between Barb and Rager is 1 feat equivalent Rage Power. Get Mad Magic and don't look back, if you want to cast spells during combat.
3) Take Primalist if you end up going Rager. In general, I don't think you'll miss the Bloodline Powers unless you have a build based around them. Rage Powers, on the other hand, will make you pretty awesome.
3a) So why Barbarian? Little extra hp, earlier Rage Powers, and Favored Class Bonus to Superstition. If you have Superstition, there's almost no such thing as a bad save. You won't miss the spells very much.
Albion, The Eye |
The big difference is spells vs. hexes.
Barbarian/Doctor is excellent with hexes. Rage boosts Hex DC, you only really care about two stats, go to town with big-DC Hexes and Barbarian martial prowess.
Bloodrager/Doctor can take the Mad Magic feat to easily use Witch spells in a rage (Barbarian can access the feat, but it's a lot harder to use effectively). However, three stats (you want at least some Cha; how much depends on what kind of Bloodrager spells you want) means your Con will be slightly lower.
EDIT: Three good saves is nice, but far from necessary. Class synergies matter far more than saves. ASF will be an issue, though moreso for the Bloodrager-- the Barbarian isn't likely to cast much in combat so he can mitigate it. Still, Barbarians aren't known for their AC.
First of all, thanks for the feedback.
I'm working with a rolled stat set, which may change things - 18, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10.
I have two questions: why is the ASF more of an issue for the Bloodrager? And how exactly would I address the AC issue on the Barbarian, in your opinion?
Thanks for pointing out the Cha detail regarding Bloodrager - I'm guessing I would need at least a 12 in Cha off the bat?
In any case, what class do you think synergies better? Barbarian or Bloodrager (I am aware they are mechanically different, but conceptually they could fit a similar theme).
(Sorcadin doesn't need a good Reflex save, because Cha-to-saves covers it, for example).
Yes... I have heard legends about Sorcadins :D
kestral287 |
First of all, thanks for the feedback.
I'm working with a rolled stat set, which may change things - 18, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10.
I have two questions: why is the ASF more of an issue for the Bloodrager? And how exactly would I address the AC issue on the Barbarian, in your opinion?
ASF is more of an issue for the Bloodrager because they're vastly more likely to actually cast Witch spells in combat. The Barbarian needs two Rage Powers, a feat, and rage cycling to do it effectively. The Bloodrager needs one feat. That's the Bloodrager's edge over the Barbarian here, insofar as synergies go-- you can make effective use of all of the Witch's abilities.
Meanwhile, a Barbarian is likely to just throw out Hexes and full attacks and cast combat spells rarely, if ever. Since Hexes get to ignore ASF, that means they don't really care about it overmuch.
Thanks for pointing out the Cha detail regarding Bloodrager - I'm guessing I would need at least a 12 in Cha off the bat?
In theory, you could work with 10 Cha. You put your level 4 point into Cha, that gets you enough to start casting by the time the Bloodrager can do it. You'll need to build it more from there-- via Headband probably-- but you can make it work.
With that stat spread-- assuming it's not in order, at least-- I'd go 16/14/18/10/12/15 for a Bloodrager. Put one level increase into Cha, get a headband when you're able, pump Str and Con the rest of the time.
In any case, what class do you think synergies better? Barbarian or Bloodrager (I am aware they are mechanically different, but conceptually they could fit a similar theme)?
Honestly? Here, I'm going to say Bloodrager. With the Primalist you can pretty efficiently steal the rage powers you want (it's not perfect, but it works). You have the stat spread to support its Cha needs. So once you drop a feat into Mad Magic, the Bloodrager has virtually all the firepower of the Barbarian, with a bit more magic capabilities on his own merits (don't underestimate abilities like auto-Hasting at the start of a fight) and more synergy with the Witch.
If, however, you don't care much for Witch spells, then go with the Barbarian.
So, basically, taking the 'rager limits your ability to "HULK SMASH!" your way out of trouble a bit, in exchange for minor spells.
I'm going to question this one, honestly.
How are you more limited? You don't get as many Rage Powers (though you'll get some, via Primalist), but that's probably going to hurt you more defensively than offensively-- if you want Pounce it's yours. In exchange you get a lot of tricks that the Barbarian can't access-- they don't have the ability to Enlarge when they start a rage, or Haste, or pick up the AC of a tank-oriented Bloodrager (though Witch ASF limits that one a bit, sadly)... there are options.
Unless your Barbarian setup calls for ~9+ Rage Powers, and those are all worth a great deal, I'm questioning it.
And the real benefit isn't so much the 'minor' spells, it's the action economy. Between abilities like the Abyssal bloodline's growth or half of the Arcane bloodline, and later Greater Bloodrage's absolutely hilarious capabilities, the Bloodrager's buff time is fantastic.
Atarlost |
Barbarians are not a very good fit for a steppe nomad. The best fit for that would be luring cavalier or sohei monk. It's a very horse-centric lifestyle and has no thematic connection with rage.
Sohei does well with any wisdom caster. A druid not using wildshape is still very strong for a gestalt component and brings a mount while also being the most "barbaric" divine caster. Shaman is also a good thematic fit but your GM may believe that hybrid classes should be restricted from gestalt for the same reason hybrid prestige classes are under the 3.5 gestalt rules.
Luring Cavalier probably wants to pair with a divine class. Druid, Shaman, and Oracle are better thematic fits than cleric. A druid would want to take a domain in this case because the cavalier side already brings the horse.
Also, going high cheese like barbarian/SWD may increase the chance your GM gives up on gestalt as a bad job.
Albion, The Eye |
Ok, so if I understand correctly, the main schtick with Barbarian/Scarred Witch Doctor is the fact that the casting is based off Constitution, making the gestalt more synergistic, and more SAD, while also piling on the Hex save DCs, correct?
Also, if running a Bloodrager, the Mad Magic feat can be added to the mix, allowing me to cast while raging. Whereas the Barbarian will focus in pre-rage buff(s), adn hexes during Rage.
@kestral287: Thanks for the valuable information, I think I'm getting a better grasp of the classes, and the logic of gestalt with them.
That being said, and moving away from the Witch class, I was pondering if, with a stat spread such as 18/14/16/12/10/15, I would effectively be able to build a Bloodrager (thinking Primalist, but other suggestions are welcome)/Oracle (Battle Mistery) - do you think this would be an effective warlord/tribal champion? And also mechanically, do you believe it works?
At level 3, as a human, I could have Power attack, Mad Magic, and another feat of choice (or no other feat if going for example half-orc, which I believe may be a good option) - this gestalt would allow me medium armor, full 9th level divine spell casting, while cherry picking particularly sweet Bloodrager spells. A couple of doubts do assail me - I really like the Arcane Bloodline, so Primalist makes me hesitate. On the other hand, I fear that Battle Mistery may be overkill (I am aware Nature, and... Lore? allow stuff like Charisma to AC and reflexes which is sweet, but the remaining revelations seem lackluster when compared to Battle).
Another thing that concerns me is the sad, sad amount of skill points... As a human I'm looking at 6 skill points per level (or 5 as an half-orc). Maybe it is not that bad.
@Atarlost: I can perfectly envision your perspective, and it makes total sense - I think I was the one that perhaps did not explain myself properly. Perhaps the steppes are not the most accurate for my concept, but instead the mountains? Conan like, but with spells? :D
Also now, and since this will be most likely for a Kingmaker game, you've put the idea in my head - having a horse companion might actually be really cool.
Why is it that barbarian/SWD is such an high cheese?
kestral287 |
You're correct on the schtick-- though it's worth noting that, for Barbarian/Witch, you're looking at the Hexes far more than the spells. The spells are a sideshow to the Barbarian. To the Bloodrager, they're a key part of the synergy.
To step away from the Witch:
Barbarian or Bloodrager//Oracle is ludicriously good. That said, I would go Lunar, not Battle, and shuffle the stats so you start with an 18 Cha. That gets you:
It's honestly one of the more hilarious gestalts in that the 9th level casting of the Oracle is almost a sideshow compared to the ridiculously good synergies in class features. And when your sideshow is that good... you have a hell of a circus.
I've been toying with this one for a while now, if you can't tell. Though I like Abyssal over Arcane-- both for the theme of the character I have in mind and because the level 1 and 4 powers are very, very good.
Albion, The Eye |
Wow kestral287, that seems just... Broken :D
Strangely enough, it might actually fit the concept (I guess I'll steer away from Half-Elf and the Paragon surge thing - it creates more problems with GMs than anything else). I have to say I am really biaised towards the Battle Mistery, but lets see:
Race: Human
Class: Oracle side
Stats: 18, 12, 15, 14, 10, 16 [at lower levels I 'feel' that I'll miss that strength more :D]
Traits: Fate's Favored / other
Feats:
Level 1 - Extra Revelation?
Human - Noble Scion of War
Level 3 - Power Attack
Level 5 - Mad Magic
Level 7 - Divine Protection
Revelations:
Level 1 - Primal Companion Mountain Cat(just love it)/
Level 1 - Prophetic Armor
Level 3 - Eye of the Moon
Level 7 - Form of the Beast
Level 11- Gift of Claw and Horn
Maybe I don't need that Extra Revelation, waiting until level 3 to get the Mountain Cat, and delaying the rest of the progression on the Revelations. That would allow me to push Mad Magic to level 1, which is not bad. I do wonder how many times I will be wasting rage rounds casting... However, not taking Extra Revelation, and assuming I am not focusing on a natural attack build, I get the best revelations by level 3, and by level 5 I have an open slot to grab a Bloodrager related feat (which I do not know what could be).
Last but not least, I can drop the Extra Revelation to simply grab a non human race - I'm still looking at half-orc :D
What do you think?
kestral287 |
You can certainly run the Battle mystery here, if you're tied to that one. It has some very nasty revelations of its own, and while I don't think they synergize with Bloodrager as well as Lunar, they're solid in their own right.
On the build itself, I would try to shuffle things so you get Divine Protection at 5th. Either drop the Extra Revelation to take Power Attack and Mad Magic sooner, or drop Noble Scion until 7th. Divine Protection is really, really solid, so I'd be very hesitant to pass it up.
Albion, The Eye |
Yeah, I think I am going with:
Feats:
Level 1 - Power Attack
Human - Noble Scion of War
Level 3 - Divine Protection
Level 5 - Mad Magic
Revelations:
Level 1 - Primal Companion Mountain Cat (just love it)
Level 3 - Prophetic Armor
Level 7 - Eye of the Moon
Level11 - Form of the Beast
Hoping I won't miss Mad Magic much until level 5...
I'll try giving it a whirl with Battle Mystery just to see how it pans out, but I was wondering, if I take the Extra Revelations feat, am I able to get revelations from other mysteries?
Albion, The Eye |
No, just from your own
Dang!
Divine Protection requires second-level spells, so you need to swap it with Mad Magic there.
Double dang! :D
So... Restructuring...
Feats:
Level 1 - Power Attack
Human - Noble Scion of War
Level 3 - Mad Magic
Level 5 - Divine Protection
Revelations:
Level 1 - Primal Companion Mountain Cat (just love it)
Level 3 - Prophetic Armor
Level 7 - Eye of the Moon
Level11 - Form of the Beast