Rondelero Duelist Two Weapon Fighting


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I've got some questions about the Rondelero Duelist's Strong Swing Ability.

Strong Swing:
At 5th level, a buckler duelist gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. [b]With a full-attack action, a buckler duelist may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack.[b] This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.

This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.

I've bolded the section I'm questioning. The bolded area references a full-attack action, which two-weapon fighting is in most cases, not a full attack action without two weapon fighting. Does this mean that you could use the rondelero duelist to replicate the Monk's flurry of blow's attack with a falcata using the penalties for fighting with a light weapon in the off-hand (the buckler)?

Or, because of this from the FAQ:

FAQ:
[b]Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?[b]
Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."

Does it mean you can replicate flurry with a falcata, but using the normal weapon penalties because you'd essentially be switching what your off-hand and main hand weapon's are with each attack and this would be allowed because of the Strong Swing text?

Or

Is it simply a reminder of something all classes can do anyways, and so does not actually grant a unique attack flavor to the archetype, but was useful due to RAW when the inner sea primer came out?

Thank you for any and all input.

EDIT: Typos


The general consensus, given that you can already fight with different weapons using your normal iterative attacks (not using TWF rules), is that the indicated sentence isn't giving "permission" so much as it is saying you don't need to make attacks with both to qualify for the bonuses. Without that sentence, some may claim that you must use two-weapon fighting rules in order to gain the stated bonuses. With the sentence, you may fight even not using TWF rules or even using only one of the weapons in a given round and still gain the benefit.


Thanks Kazaan,

That helps straighten the ability's text out, but I'm wondering how it would interact with two weapon fighting, not so much whether you need two for it to function.


Neither interferes with the other. Basically, what Strong Swing does is that while you are wielding a Falcata in one hand and a Buckler in the other, you get the stated attack and damage bonuses. It doesn't matter whether or not you use TWF rules to get an extra attack. Remember that the TWF rules are only for gaining extra attacks beyond what your BAB would allow. If you have 3 iteratives, you can make 3 attacks with any combination of weapons. That could be 3 with the Falcata, 3 with the Buckler, or 2 and 1 with either weapon getting two attacks; you'd still get the Strong Swing bonuses. If you use TWF rules to get an extra attack (or attacks), you still get the Strong Swing bonuses so long as you are wielding both. Even if you just made a Charge or a standard Attack using one of the weapons, you're still wielding both so you still get the bonuses. However, if you dropped the Falcata and grabbed a Greatsword, or if you dropped the Buckler and grabbed a Heavy Shield, you'd lose the bonuses.

Scarab Sages

It's also worth noting that Strong Swing does not count as weapon training, so no gloves of dueling.

All strong swing does is grant you a weapon training replacement when using a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made with either weapon. The alternating weapon text does nothing, as you could already alternate attacks with off-hand weapons. If you use two-weapon fighting, the extra attacks still must be used with your off-hand weapon.


So, even though the text references a full attack action, it does not apply to the full attack action when two weapon fighting? Seems like it should reference something besides a full attack option then.


kurohyou wrote:
So, even though the text references a full attack action, it does not apply to the full attack action when two weapon fighting? Seems like it should reference something besides a full attack option then.

Imbicatus reading implies that wielding the falcata in the off hand and the buckler in the main hand should grant you the ability to make all attacks with a falcata.


IMHO, it's reminder text. (at this point in time)

Keep in mind that the Inner Sea Primer came out in 2010 and the FAQ entry is dated November 2011.

So while it may be common knowledge now, due to the FAQ, when the archetype came out they probably felt the need to clarify that you can alternate weapons during a full attack action, if desired, without using TWF.

PS: use [/b] to end the sections you want to bold.


kurohyou wrote:
So, even though the text references a full attack action, it does not apply to the full attack action when two weapon fighting? Seems like it should reference something besides a full attack option then.

It does work when two-weapon fighting. You need to understand that the mechanics of two-weapon fighting rules elements don't simply apply to wielding two different weapons. Just because you have a Longsword in one hand and a Shortsword in the other doesn't necessarily mean you are two-weapon fighting. You can make just your iterative attacks from BAB (+16/+11/+6/+1) even using four different weapons (ie. Longsword +16/Shortsword +11/Boot Blade +6/Unarmed Strike (Headbutt) +1), you suffer no attack penalties and all these attacks get full Str to damage. Two-Weapon Fighting, the combat mechanic, allows you to suffer an attack penalty in order to gain extra attacks. Anyone, even without the first TWF feat, can make an extra attack if they so choose; but the penalties are so steep without the feat it is really not worth it unless you're fighting the trashiest of trash.

But the Strong Swing ability really has nothing to do with the Two-Weapon Fighting mechanics. Whether or not you are using TWF to attack at +11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1 with the Falcata and a Buckler as the Off-hand, or you are using the regular iterative sequence to attack at +13/+8/+3 with any combination of Falcata and/or Buckler, it makes no difference; Strong Swing will give its attack and damage bonus regardless.

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