Gauss |
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Avatar-1,
The Sash of the War Champion "doesn't work" folks state that because you traded out Armor Training 2 it is lost and any increase in the level of Armor Training is meaningless (ie: you cannot ever advance Armor Training). The higher effects effectively never exist for you.
The Sash of the War Champion "does work" folks (I am one) state that the loss of Armor Training 2 is a loss of advancement of Armor Training and not a change of the class ability Armor Training.
Because Armor Training is never altered (only advancement lost) then if you can get that advancement from elsewhere (such as the Sash of the War Champion) then it works.
Taken from one perspective, Armor Training 2 could be interpreted as a class feature, but the problem with that perspective is that it is not written up as a class feature. It has no text under "Class Features".
As strict RAW (which nobody uses) Armor Training 2 doesn't even exist because it is only on a table with no corresponding text under "Class Features". Note: I am saying that nobody uses this interpretation because it is nonsensical even if it is RAW (people keep missing this point, I am emphasizing it).
Armor Training 2 clearly does mean *something* and we all assume that Armor Training 2 means the level 7 increase of Armor Training. But that is where our understanding diverges.
Either it is a class feature (which it isn't written up as) or it is an advancement of a class feature like every other class feature that advances (such as Sneak Attack and Channel Energy).
Other class features that advance can be artificially advanced regardless of whether you trade out specific increases or not unless there is specific text to the contrary.
Kaouse |
Hey Rynjin, I wanna hear your opinion on something.
Let's say I'm a level 7 Swashbuckler with the Whirling Dervish archetype. This archetype gives up several deeds, including Superior Feint, Bleeding Wound, and a few others.
If after level 7, I multiclassed into Magus and obtained the Magus Arcana "Arcane Deed," would I be able to select the deeds I traded away, assuming I was a high enough level Magus?
Gauss |
Oh, I just realized one other thing, for a Dragoon this whole "Sash+Armor Training" issue amounts to +/- 5,000gp in order to move full speed in heavy armor.
If allowed to use a Sash to bump up Armor Training then he pays 4,000gp.
If not allowed to use a Sash to bump up Armor Training then he pays 9,000gp and gets Mithral Heavy Armor instead. A difference of 5,000gp but with the same result, full speed in Heavy Armor (actually, an extra point of ACP and Max Dex via Mithral).
Oh, and if you really want to you could just go Fighter 3 and then get a Sash (or Mithral Heavy) while going with some other class (such as Cavalier). Then you are a level 3 fighter and you still move full speed in Heavy Armor.
In this contexts of a 3 level dip in fighter or just getting Mithral Heavy Armor I really don't see this issue as a big deal regardless of which way the FAQ goes.
Starbuck_II |
And again what is armor training 2?
Armor training is a single ability gained at level 3.
\
The designer of the Dragoon archetype says the opposite I think.
But anyway, So for a dragoon the sash boosts you up, but until you sash + level = 11 (sash adds 4), it does nothing for you.
Gauss |
Starbuck_II, could you point to the "Armor Training 2" class feature text anywhere in the CRB? The only class feature text I could find was for "Armor Training" which is a class feature acquired at level 3 and advanced at levels 7, 11, and 15.
Armor Training 2 is not a class feature, it is the level 7 advancement of the class feature Armor Training.
Just like "Sneak Attack +4d6" is not a class feature, it is the advancement of the class feature "Sneak Attack".
Abraham spalding |
Abraham spalding wrote:And again what is armor training 2?
Armor training is a single ability gained at level 3.
\
The designer of the Dragoon archetype says the opposite I think.
But anyway, So for a dragoon the sash boosts you up, but until you sash + level = 11 (sash adds 4), it does nothing for you.
Yeah I agree you don't have the feature until you have the feature, but all in all I stand by my position that if the abilities had been edited better or the archetypes were better written we wouldn't have these questions at all.
As it stands we have a psuedo-class ability that isn't and references advancements in such a way as to not tell you what those advancements are and what parts are lost.
This is a problem that could/should be fixed with just some editing.
Rynjin |
Hey Rynjin, I wanna hear your opinion on something.
Let's say I'm a level 7 Swashbuckler with the Whirling Dervish archetype. This archetype gives up several deeds, including Superior Feint, Bleeding Wound, and a few others.
If after level 7, I multiclassed into Magus and obtained the Magus Arcana "Arcane Deed," would I be able to select the deeds I traded away, assuming I was a high enough level Magus?
Yes, because that is an ability granted by an entirely different class. It is no different than playing a Rogue with an archetype that trades out the Rogue Talent gained at 2nd level and then multiclassing with Slayer...you don't lose the Slayer's 2nd level Talent.
That is a Magus Arcana that draws on the Swashbuckler class list. Whether or not you have an archetype of Swashbuckler doesn't affect the contents of the actual class, just your access to them with the levels you have in that class.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Gauss |
James Risner, you are right, I shouldn't have phrased that statement that way.
But there is no RAW stating that Armor Training 2 has anything to do with Armor Training. We may all understand that it does, but the details of that is up to interpretation.
Some call it it's own class feature and can thus be removed.
This is not supported anywhere in the Fighter class feature text or the Armor Training class feature. It is a single class feature with multiple advancements (increases).
Others say it is a modification to the Armor Training text removing the level 7 increase.
Again, this is not supported (although it may be RAI) since there is nothing that states 'this modifies the Armor Training class feature'.
What I am saying is that since there is no statement of what Armor Training 2 is, and there is no text that Armor Training is modified, it isn't.
All you lose is the advancement. The class feature itself is still there, intact, whole. And the Sash acts upon that class feature.
We disagree on that, I get it, that is ok.
But, at best this is poorly written and in need of a clarification. To me, if Armor Training 2 (and 3 and 4) were supposed to be their own class features they should have stated it differently.
Abraham Spalding had a good example of how it could have been broken up into 4 parts.
At the very least the Archetype rules could have discussed what happens when a single class feature that advanced had the advancements replaced. There is no statement about that. It discusses individually replaced class features. Not a single feature with multiple advancements that have the advancements delayed or removed.
What there is is a FAQ that states if the archetype has the class feature then you can use feats, abilities, items etc that modify that feature.
Armor Training still exists for Dragoons. The Sash of the War Champion boosts Armor Training.
If it does not boost Armor Training because the level 7, 11, or 15 advancements are ineligible there should be rules stating this.
Ultimately, the Devs will rule on this. They may rule with the majority (probably will, I expect to be told 'no') but it still needs a FAQ and the fact that so many do not see the problem and have so negatively reacted to people like me who see the problem is really frustrating.
It isn't the first time I have been on the minority side of a debate before, probably not the last.
Rikkan |
Starbuck_II, could you point to the "Armor Training 2" class feature text anywhere in the CRB? The only class feature text I could find was for "Armor Training" which is a class feature acquired at level 3 and advanced at levels 7, 11, and 15.
Armor Training 2 is not a class feature, it is the level 7 advancement of the class feature Armor Training.
Just like "Sneak Attack +4d6" is not a class feature, it is the advancement of the class feature "Sneak Attack".
Armour training 2 is part of the scaling armour training class feature.
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature, or delays when you get that class feature, you do not have that class feature until you actually gain that class feature.
Example: If you have a fighter archetype that replaces weapon training 1 (but not weapon training 2, 3, and 4), you don't gain the weapon training 2 ability until fighter level 9, which means you don't have the weapon training class ability at all until you reach fighter level 9. Anything with "weapon training" or "weapon training class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 9.
While the FAQ does talk about weapon training, since armour training and weapon training are written up in the same way, I feel that it is clear that the section above also applies to armour training.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
I feel that it is clear that the section above also applies to armour training.
Good fine, yes that is explicitly on point. So it covers Armor Training and not getting Armor Training 2 means you don't have it and can't get it until you have sufficient levels to gain it (which may be never.)
Coriat |
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I agree with Rynjin et al.
If a seventh level fighter doesn't get armor training 2 because he has the dragoon archetype, then a third level dragoon fighter with a sash that lets him treat that fighter level as four higher doesn't get it either. He gets the armor training of himself at 7th level, which is 1 point.
Of note, the sash does not generically grant the armor training of a fighter 4 levels higher than the wearer; it allows the wearer to treat his level as 4 higher. So if his levels won't provide any armor training advancement over the next 4 levels, neither does the sash.
Avatar-1 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Armor Training still exists for Dragoons. The Sash of the War Champion boosts Armor Training.
If it does not boost Armor Training because the level 7, 11, or 15 advancements are ineligible there should be rules stating this.
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
The Sash gives that advancement based on "fighter level", though. In this case, that means "Dragoon" level, and the Dragoon doesn't get Armor Training 2+, so it doesn't work.
Other class features that advance can be artificially advanced regardless of whether you trade out specific increases or not unless there is specific text to the contrary.
What's the precedent?
I'm betting the specific text to the contrary will be something that works by saying "a cleric who wears this can channel energy for an additional 1d6" rather than "a cleric who wears this can channel as a cleric 2 levels higher" on an archetype that normally doesn't get channeling two levels higher - but prove me wrong?
Gauss |
Gauss wrote:Starbuck_II, could you point to the "Armor Training 2" class feature text anywhere in the CRB? The only class feature text I could find was for "Armor Training" which is a class feature acquired at level 3 and advanced at levels 7, 11, and 15.
Armor Training 2 is not a class feature, it is the level 7 advancement of the class feature Armor Training.
Just like "Sneak Attack +4d6" is not a class feature, it is the advancement of the class feature "Sneak Attack".Armour training 2 is part of the scaling armour training class feature.
CRB FAQ wrote:While the FAQ does talk about weapon training, since armour training and weapon training are written up in the same way, I feel that it is clear that the section above also applies to armour training.If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature, or delays when you get that class feature, you do not have that class feature until you actually gain that class feature.
Example: If you have a fighter archetype that replaces weapon training 1 (but not weapon training 2, 3, and 4), you don't gain the weapon training 2 ability until fighter level 9, which means you don't have the weapon training class ability at all until you reach fighter level 9. Anything with "weapon training" or "weapon training class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 9.
1) The FAQ is discussing what happens when you trade out the first increment.
That is not the situation here.2) It states that you do not get a scaling class feature until you get the first portion of the scaling class feature.
Again, not the situation here.
3) It gives 3 examples covering losing the first portion, not the second portion after getting the first portion.
Yet again, not the situation here.
How do you feel this FAQ helps you in any way? It even mentions "rules element that is part of a scaling class feature" which, if anything, helps what I have been saying since it clearly states what I have been stating all along.
That being, Armor Training 2 is not a class feature, it is a reference to (or part of) the scaling class feature Armor Training.
So, none of the FAQ discussion or the FAQ examples support what you are trying to say it supports. The FAQ is covering what happens when you get the first increment at a later date.
At level 3 the Dragoon gains Armor Training. (The FAQ even makes that clear.)
Since the Dragoon has Armor Training it is eligible for the Sash since the Sash acts on Armor Training.
caeserion |
@Guass no the FAQ is discussing what happens when you trade a scaling class feature and what happens if you get later. The examples are just examples it doesn't matter when you trade the part out.
I'm also seeing that a lot of people are forgetting the faster movement in medium and heavy armor happens as long as you get the base armor training. The scaling is the lowering the armor check penalty and adding maximum Dex to the armor.
Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
It's no different then losing the first, second ,third, or whatever in any scaling class feature like sneak attack or channeling.
For example if an archetype gives up sneak at level 5 and you're level 3 with an item treats your class level as two higher for sneak attack you wouldn't get an increase in sneak attack. When you're level 5 you would if the archetype didn't give up anymore sneak attack scaling.The Dragoon loses armor training 2-4 and so adding the war sash is not going to help because it doesn't get any more armor training. So yes you're right that they do get armor training and the sash would treat it as having 4 more levels in fighter for armor training but at the point when your are suppose get the ability it's traded out for something else meaning you wouldn't get it. So yes armor training 2-4 are not class abilities by themselves but part of an ability that scales which are often traded out.
No offense I often see arguments like this and it makes me feel like people are trying get one over the system in my opinion. Archetypes trade abilities for certain reason trying some way to get it back some different way of reading a rule is when get that feeling. Maybe seeing too much into it but like I said it just my opinion on it.
Abraham spalding |
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I love how people presume to know that an increase in a progressive part of a class ability you already get includes a different part of the same class ability that isn't linked to the prior section.
With nothing to cite to prove it other than, "You are wrong this is how it works."
Which again points to poor editing and a need to reword either each of the archetypes or the base class.
TriOmegaZero |
If an archetype replaces a class feature that's part of a series of improvements or additions to the base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6 at 5th level—it improves to +2d6 just as if she finally gained the increase for 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level in which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
If an archetype replaces a class feature that has a series of improvements, but it does not list one individual improvement, that class feature replaces the entire class feature and all of its improvements. For example, if a class feature says that it replaces trap sense without mentioning a specific bonus, it replaces all of trap sense.
littlehewy |
Advanced Class Guide Archetype text wrote:If an archetype replaces a class feature that's part of a series of improvements or additions to the base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6 at 5th level—it improves to +2d6 just as if she finally gained the increase for 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level in which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
If an archetype replaces a class feature that has a series of improvements, but it does not list one individual improvement, that class feature replaces the entire class feature and all of its improvements. For example, if a class feature says that it replaces trap sense without mentioning a specific bonus, it replaces all of trap sense.
Way to be all pertinent and stuff.
TriOmegaZero |
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I got pointed to it here.
I believe that you are pretty much decisively correct, and the language that explains this is usually in those archetype chapter intros that nobody actually reads since they read the one in the APG and figure they're all the same (consider, for instance, the ACG archetype chapter intro).
littlehewy |
I got pointed to it here.
Mark Seifter wrote:I believe that you are pretty much decisively correct, and the language that explains this is usually in those archetype chapter intros that nobody actually reads since they read the one in the APG and figure they're all the same (consider, for instance, the ACG archetype chapter intro).
/end thread*
*May not be actual end of thread