JamesCooke |
Building a Slayer/Wizard(Or Witch, I suppose) that uses his arcane dabbling to increase his effectiveness as a sneak. I'd like to keep him strong in melee but also have a decent level of spells available to him.
My question is: how far could I dip into the casting class before I get to the point where he falls off hard in melee? The way I understand it: If I dip too far into the casting class, the loss of BAB and supplementary abilities that aid melee combat would make him weak in melee -as well as- leaving him with only subpar casting.
I've considered the Arcane Trickster, but that seems more geared towards casters that want to be more sneaky- not sneaks that want to be more casty.
Please let me know if I need to clarify/reword what I've said and thank you very much for your time/advice!
kestral287 |
Well, ten levels of a 1/2 BAB class and ten levels of a full BAB class equates effectively to a 3/4ths BAB class, and those can do fine in melee. Your defenses will be a concern though-- and have you considered the Eldritch Knight?
That said, for the Slayer I'd want to push to level seven as quickly as possible, which might upset things.
Dafydd |
Why not go back to a ranger? They get spells and most of the slayer abilities.
If you still wanna combine might and magic, there is the Magus too, this is their stick after all.
Well, if those options do not interest you, 1 level of Wizard is all you would need (and likely want) or 1 level of Arcanist. Any more and you lose too much from your martial focus. Both Wizard and Arcanist will cost you many levels which means slayer talents, studied bonuses, and sneak attack. 1 level does give you Vanish, which with a trait to increase your CL will last 3 rounds and enable you to sneak attack at will. Ok, only a couple times a day, but still better then nothing.
If you want long term stealth, you will need 3 levels of wizard or 4 levels of arcanist. This gets you Invisibility and thus 3-6 minutes of disappearing.
Issac Daneil |
Multiclassing is great for non spell casters, because sometimes the abilities that each martial class contributes can be devastating. I've found mixing of all classes, Monk and Rogue together make some very interested Skilled Archers, and other kinds of niche ideas
However, spell casters have it rough, since they are supposed to learn spells in order to provide an alternate playstyle then fighting with weapons.
But then again, I haven't met someone yet who hates the Martial + Magic idea, so I imagine Mage-Warriors are a popular idea. (I blame Thor!)
So, if I were to weigh in, my suggestion is to learn magic only to an extent that it aids your combat skills, and don't use magic to attack people.
This distinction is because spells that deal damage are SO dependant on Caster level, and often Spell Dcs too, that not being onboard 100% may just give you options that you THINK will be effective, but are always being resisted.
Fortunately, it sounds like you want a Martial w/ magic that aids him, so your idea works.
I'd either go with an existing class that has built in tricky spells, like Bard (Sandman archetype gets sneak attack, and Dervish bards can self buff effectively), or else going with a Slayer 12, Witch/Wizard/Sorceror 8. Make sure to take Magical Knack to get +2 to your caster level.
The important thing to note is that you want your BAB to stay relatively high (This ends up being 16, and with buffs, and Studied Target, you'll atleast be similar to a good BAB 15 class that is expected to fight.)
Then, use your spells to modify yourself as you desire.
JamesCooke |
@Dafydd
Ranger could work. I'm looking for something with an Urban bent to it, but as far as the spells go they could be "urban themed" depending on what I'm preparing for the day- I'll look into it. Magus is VERY good, don't get me wrong, I just prefer the mechanical benefits to stealth of the Slayer.
Arcanist is something I hadn't considered, but I'll be sure to look into that as well.
@Kestral287
Assuming 12 max would probably be ideal. Waiting any later than that for the build to come online would be really rough. Though I'm willing to listen to any and all suggestions, so don't let my preferences hinder you =)
Durngrun Stonebreaker |
If you're looking for a sneak that uses magic to increase his sneakiness, may I suggest Saboteur (Alchemist)? It can combine with Vivisectionist for sneak attack abilities.
kestral287 |
For twelve levels I'd skip the EK entirely; you won't get it soon enough.
Here an even split would be my recommendation. Wizard 6/Slayer 6 gets you +1 BAB over a 3/4ths class, 3rd-level casting (a good spell level for buffs).
Going forward I'd lean harder on Slayer and Eldritch Knight. How you mix them depends on which Slayer features you like and what you're going for in casting.
Though I have to ask, just because it's kind of the obvious route: have you considered the Magus? As an Int-based caster they're going to have as many or more skill points than the Slayer and they can go Dex-based, so their base Sneak is good and can be augmented with the Invisibility line of spells.
If you've rejected it, the follow-up question: what about Slayer in particular attracts you? Which class features?
JamesCooke |
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@Issac Daneil
Right, don't use spells to attack people- that was the plan all along! Lemme just.. get rid of these "Fireball everything" plans.
I suppose that's another advantage of using the Eldritch Knight PrC- it increases CL as it progresses.
I've never had any luck with martial Bards. I suppose the Skald could do it well, but "Sounding the drums of war" doesn't conjure up images of sneaky thug-types.
@Durngrun Stonebreaker
Oh, nifty. I don't think I'll use that for this build, but I'll definitely keep it in my back pocket for something else I was thinking of- thanks for sharing!
@kestral287
I think that's a fair recommendation for a 12 level progression.
Magus hasn't been thrown out, at this point I'm looking for other points of view on the subject.
I like the Slayer's mechanical boons to stealth and tracking while keeping the flavor open enough to be applicable in an urban environment (as opposed to the Ranger which is very heavily nature based).
kestral287 |
Out of curiosity... what mechanical bonus to stealth?
The Studied Target thing isn't really consistent, and doesn't kick in until 7th.
There are a couple talents... move at full speed while Stealthed, that's decent. Slayer Camouflage for stealth in favored terrains, but that's eating two talents for a situational bonus. Move double-speed while Stealthed once per day, though you're not likely to get that.
Is one of those in particular jumping out at you?
JamesCooke |
The Urban Ranger archetype could work. I"m not a huge fan of the spell list for the concept, because the spell list is still pretty laced with nature-themed spells, but I'm not in a position to be too picky so I'll give it another look.
@Durngrun Stonebreaker
I like Gnomes, Gnomes are cool. Nicholas Tesla was a Gnome. Probably.