TWFing a two handed weapon and kicks?


Rules Questions


Honestly I doubt this works but it's a thought I suppose.

Like two handing a one handed weapon and kicking sounds the most mechanically possible as I am still using a one handed weapon and the kicks would be the light weapon.


No, doesn't work.


For shame. :(

Grand Lodge

You will need a Sea-Knife, or Barbazu Beard.


It used to work until an FAQ declared that you can't do it with armor spikes, and seems to imply that you can't do it any other way either. A lot of people ignore that FAQ, but that's the 'official' word on it.


The ability to make your unarmed strikes even with your hands full does not give you extra actions/round. You get 1 or more attacks based on your BAB with your primary hand. You get an attack with your off hand, more if you take those improved and advanced 2weapon fighting feats. So if you use both hands to use a 2 handed weapon, you've used up all your actions.

If you use something like a long sword, shield, and have Improved Unarmed Strike and 2wfighting, you could use your sword, make your unarmed strike, and still get the AC bonus from your shield.

If you are using a 2 handed weapon or a weapon and shield, you still might make unarmed attacks of opportunity, say with the Snake Fang Feat or Vicious Stomp.

Hope this helps.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
You will need a Sea-Knife, or Barbazu Beard.

A Barbazu Beard is a Natural Attack, though, isn't it? Natural Attacks DO give you extra actions. If you have Bite and a Gore attack, you could swing your Greatsword, bite, and Gore, although you take significant penalties on your natural attacks for mixing them with manufactured weapon attacks. The penalty is mostly remedied by taking the Multiattack Feat.


I was aware of the whole main hand off hand thing but I felt that this could easily fall under the very vague concept of what counts as "hands" mechanically. Seeing as I don't think anyone would think much of it if I was TWF with a weapon in one hand and my fist as my off hand weapon and I occasionally substituted a punch for a kick, I thought it was worth asking.


Just plan on no.

Grand Lodge

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You will need a Sea-Knife, or Barbazu Beard.
A Barbazu Beard is a Natural Attack, though, isn't it? Natural Attacks DO give you extra actions. If you have Bite and a Gore attack, you could swing your Greatsword, bite, and Gore, although you take significant penalties on your natural attacks for mixing them with manufactured weapon attacks. The penalty is mostly remedied by taking the Multiattack Feat.

Barbazu Beard is a weapon in Pathfinder Chronicles - Cheliax: Empire of Devils, and is legal for PFS.

Basically, a metal beard, you strap to your face.

It notes, specifically, that you can attack with it, as an off-hand attack, whilst using a two-handed weapon.

Similar wording is in the description of the Sea-Knife, but it is not PFS legal.

Well, not unless there is a Gillman boon.


As I mentioned I was pretty confident it would be a no. I've simply been trying to make a character that would actually benefit from his off hand weapon being an unarmed strike while TWFing. Seeing as this would create a need for having feats benefit two kinds of weapons, one of which is ridiculous to "enchant" as amulet of mighty fists is pretty costly, I've had quite a time with it and was kind of grasping at straws here.

Grand Lodge

Monks do it.


I wonder if the opposite would work?

FAQ wrote:

No.

Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.

If you START with a regular attack of an unarmed strike/armor spike/whatever, the language in the FAQ suggests your hands are free to swing the greatsword as an "off-hand" weapon. Your penalty might be a bit higher and you'd lose the 1.5 damage...

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Both that, and the opposite, would work, RAW.

Now, how the unwritten rules handle it?

I don't have those in front of me, so I can't say.

Dark Archive

One of Gorum's deific boons is the ability to make an extra Unarmed Attack in a full attack with a 2h. So, it's doable, but not baseline.

Sentinel of Gorum - Second Boon wrote:
Two-Handed Smash (Ex) If you make a full attack while wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you may make a single unarmed strike in addition to your normal attacks. In essence, after you complete your two-handed weapon attacks, you smash with your elbow, kick out with a foot, or make some other unarmed strike against an opponent. This bonus attack is made at your highest base attack bonus, and provokes an attack of opportunity if you lack the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or a similar ability. If you’re Medium, you deal 1d6 points of damage with this unarmed strike; if you’re Small, you deal 1d4 points of damage. Add half your Strength bonus to the damage dealt. The attack roll for the unarmed strike is subject to the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting unless you have the feats to reduce these penalties.


Khara Thrust wrote:

I wonder if the opposite would work?

FAQ wrote:

No.

Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
If you START with a regular attack of an unarmed strike/armor spike/whatever, the language in the FAQ suggests your hands are free to swing the greatsword as an "off-hand" weapon. Your penalty might be a bit higher and you'd lose the 1.5 damage...

From what Devs have said (don't ask me to find exact quotes, because I'm not gonna be bothered), it seems like while you can freely take your off-hand off and put it on a weapon as a free action, you can't use it to switch weapons with things like Quick Draw or even punches/kicks/headbutts. Monks and other Flurry warriors are the sole exceptions because they are specifically trained for that nonsense.

The justification seems to be that while there is enough time and loss of momentum between attack Iteratives (BAB, BAB-5, BAB-10, etc), two-weapon fighting requires way more focus and doesn't allow for the same segments of time between Main and Off-Hand attacks (again, Flurry overriding this rule/logic BECAUSE it's meant to be different than your standard TWF style). Since the idea with TWF is that you are making simultaneous attacks, or at the very least attacking with two weapons in a rhythm, releasing your Off-Hand, and attacking or drawing a weapon THEN attacking takes too much time & effort to pull off unless you receive training allowing you to do just that (hello, Flurry of Blows).

---

So, basically, regarding what has been said in the FAQ and what has been said from the Devs, what you CAN do is this:

+15/+10/+5 BAB, TWF & ITWF, Wielding a Katana:

+13 (Mainhand Katana) / +13 (Offhand Unarmed) / +8 (Mainhand Katana) / +8 (Offhand Unarmed) / +3 (Two-Handed Katana)

You can switch hands in the time between iterative attacks in order to either go Two-Weapon or Two-Handed, but you can't switch during an iteration unless you're a Monk or have some other ability that specifically allows you to make both a Two-Handed attack and an Off-hand attack in the same iteration.

Haste and OTHER effects which give you Extra Attacks, by the way, seem to count as a separate Iteration entirely, so if the example above has Haste on them, it can reasonably assumed to be:

+13 (Two-Handed Katana) / +13 (Mainhand Katana) / +13 (Offhand Unarmed) / +8 (Mainhand Katana) / +8 (Offhand Unarmed) / +3 (Two-Handed Katana)


Flurrying with quaterstaff quarterstaff foot or quarterstaff quarterstaff FIST TO THE FACE is a mere matter of fluff, not mechanics. Using that to justify a power boost from more attacks simply doesn't work.


If the objective is to TWF with weapon and fist, then weapon-and-cestus is already a powerful way to do TWF since you can two-hand your weapon any time you're not using a full attack, and you don't need Improved Unarmed Strike.

Picking up a level of Master of Many Styles Monk can make unarmed strike offhand extremely powerful, since you get one-handed Power Attack bonus with them, you can use a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes, and you can pick up Dragon Style and other unarmed style feats.


Khara Thrust wrote:

I wonder if the opposite would work?

FAQ wrote:

No.

Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
If you START with a regular attack of an unarmed strike/armor spike/whatever, the language in the FAQ suggests your hands are free to swing the greatsword as an "off-hand" weapon. Your penalty might be a bit higher and you'd lose the 1.5 damage...

You cannot make an off hand attack with a two-handed weapon as they require a primary hand.


In general, using a two handed weapon "consumes" a use of your "primary" and "offhand" attacks. Releasing/regripping the weapons or using alternatives to "hands" doesn't change this.

As a quick example, if you have +6 BAB and Improved TWF you can:
Attack with a 2H weapon twice
Attack with a 2H weapon once, a 1H weapon once, and an offhand weapon once
Attack with a 1H weapon twice and an offhand weapon twice

You can substitute an unarmed strike, such as a kick, for any of the 1H weapon or offhand weapon options above.


Byakko wrote:

In general, using a two handed weapon "consumes" a use of your "primary" and "offhand" attacks. Releasing/regripping the weapons or using alternatives to "hands" doesn't change this.

As a quick example, if you have +6 BAB and Improved TWF you can:
Attack with a 2H weapon twice
Attack with a 2H weapon once, a 1H weapon once, and an offhand weapon once
Attack with a 1H weapon twice and an offhand weapon twice

You can substitute an unarmed strike, such as a kick, for any of the 1H weapon or offhand weapon options above.

No you can't. There is not TWF'ing if you are using a 2-handed weapon. There is an FAQ that disallows it. 3.5 did allow it, but Paizo does not like it.


wraithstrike, that FAQ is referring to what I've phrased as a 2H weapon consuming your primary and offhand attacks. However, if you have additional offhand attacks, you can in fact make offhand attacks in conjunction to wielding a 2H weapon. I'll try to drudge up the link to the relevant forum post; give me a few.


wraithstrike wrote:
Byakko wrote:

In general, using a two handed weapon "consumes" a use of your "primary" and "offhand" attacks. Releasing/regripping the weapons or using alternatives to "hands" doesn't change this.

As a quick example, if you have +6 BAB and Improved TWF you can:
Attack with a 2H weapon twice
Attack with a 2H weapon once, a 1H weapon once, and an offhand weapon once
Attack with a 1H weapon twice and an offhand weapon twice

You can substitute an unarmed strike, such as a kick, for any of the 1H weapon or offhand weapon options above.

No you can't. There is not TWF'ing if you are using a 2-handed weapon. There is an FAQ that disallows it. 3.5 did allow it, but Paizo does not like it.

I think there's a bit of confusion here - you're right in that 2-handers and TWF don't mix, but not quite in the way you're thinking.

The ruling as it stands is that 2-Handed AND Unarmed cannot be used for TWF on the same Iteration.

Meaning if you have just a +5 BAB, you can't go +3 (2-handed) / +3 (unarmed), for example.

However, you ARE allowed to grip or remove your hand from a weapon as a free action, and you are allowed to switch which weapons you're using between Iterations (meaning if you're wielding both a Mace and a Longsword, with BAB +6/+1 you can swing +6 (Mace) / +1 (Longsword).

What with these three rules together, what we're left with is that you CAN use Two-Weapon AND Two-Handed in the same Full Attack Action, but you cannot use them TOGETHER in the same Attack Iteration - only Monks or other Flurriers are allowed to do that, because they're crazy like that.


You used the term "off-hand", that is why. There is no off-hand unless you are using two-weapon fighting. Even using two weapons does not give you an off-hand attack until you use two weapon fighting to get an extra attakc.


chbgraphicarts: I think I'm agreeing with you, but I balk a little at your "Attack Iteration" terminology.

But basically, if you have +6 BAB and ITWF, and your first attack is with a 2 handed weapon, nothing is stopping you from dropping that 2H weapon after the first attack and continuing your full round attack with other weapons.

Now as unarmed strikes don't require the use of your actual hands, you can can simply continue to hold on to the 2H weapon as you do exactly the same thing as above.

The important thing is to ensure you're not getting any "extra" attacks out of your routine, and if you use a 2H attack you must also give up an accompanying offhand attack.


wraithstrike, when you use a 2H weapon you *are* giving up your offhand attack, normally. This is what stops you from using TWF with a 2H weapon and armour spikes at level 1.


Byakko wrote:
wraithstrike, when you use a 2H weapon you *are* giving up your offhand attack, normally. This is what stops you from using TWF with a 2H weapon and armour spikes at level 1.

I know what the rule is. I was just explaining to the other poster why he should not have used the term "off-hand".


Ah, no problem. :)

Here's a link to one section of a thread that discusses things in more detail.
It's not the specific one I was looking for, but it may help clarify for those curious.

Is this TWF combination legal?


Jack of Nothing wrote:
As I mentioned I was pretty confident it would be a no. I've simply been trying to make a character that would actually benefit from his off hand weapon being an unarmed strike while TWFing. Seeing as this would create a need for having feats benefit two kinds of weapons, one of which is ridiculous to "enchant" as amulet of mighty fists is pretty costly, I've had quite a time with it and was kind of grasping at straws here.

To make use of unarmed strikes as an off-hand weapon, I recommend weapon and shield + unarmed strike. Perhaps be a Tengu. They get to use Bastard Swords as Martial Weapons. Dwarves do, too, only they call their Bastard Swords Dwarven Waraxes. Anyway, you can make your full attack with weapon and unarmed strike, and you still get to use your shield for your AC bonus. If you really want to use a 2 handed weapon, consider a few levels in Fighter with Phalanx Soldier Archetype. They can use a polearm 1 handed in conjunction with a shield. You can still use your unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. Use a Halberd; develop a Trip Build with Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, and you can work in an unarmed Attack of Opportunity feature blended elegantly in with your weapon combo. There's no problem with using a 2 handed weapon in combination with unarmed attacks of opportunity.

I have specific suggestions.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Monks do it.

Monks do what?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


To make use of unarmed strikes as an off-hand weapon, I recommend weapon and shield + unarmed strike. Perhaps be a Tengu. They get to use Bastard Swords as Martial Weapons. Dwarves do, too, only they call their Bastard Swords Dwarven Waraxes. Anyway, you can make your full attack with weapon and unarmed strike, and you still get to use your shield for your AC bonus. If you really want to use a 2 handed weapon, consider a few levels in Fighter with Phalanx Soldier Archetype. They can use a polearm 1 handed in conjunction with a shield. You can still use your unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. Use a Halberd; develop a Trip Build with Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, and you can work in an unarmed Attack of Opportunity feature blended elegantly in with your weapon combo. There's no problem with using a 2 handed weapon in combination with unarmed attacks of opportunity.

I have specific suggestions.

Phalanx soldier says you can use any polearm as a one-handed weapon. Technically it is still a two handed weapon, but since you are using it as a one-handed weapon it does not get the 1.5 boost to strength. It does provide reach however.


Byakko wrote:

Ah, no problem. :)

Here's a link to one section of a thread that discusses things in more detail.
It's not the specific one I was looking for, but it may help clarify for those curious.

Is this TWF combination legal?

Nope. Later on that poster clarifies what he was asking and it involves using a two handed weapon with TWF'ing.

Grand Lodge

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Monks do it.
Monks do what?

Effectively two-weapon fight, with two-handed weapons.

Sovereign Court

Monks can make unarmed strikes with their hands full, so they can do this. As for other classes, however, kicking is actually a fairly awkward movement that necessarily requires you to be pretty severely off-balance (at least for combat standards) for a while. They're fairly slow, and actually not that powerful unless you've been taught how to kick. While it's never come up in my games, I'd actually slam kicking with non-proficiency penalties unless you have Improved Unarmed Strikes, at least. If I was feeling particularly hard about it, a single kick would probably also count as a full attack, and may even make you flat-footed for a round (again, unless you have IUS). Even then, unless you're a monk, brawler, or perhaps unarmed fighter, I'd even consider treating kicks as one-handed weapons for TWF penalties rather than light as unarmed strikes are usually treated.

On top of that, unless you are a monk (or perhaps brawler, though they rarely use two-handed weapons) I'd probably rule that non-double two-handed weapons are too heavy and unwieldy to allow for a decent kick. Double weapons are usually better balanced due to both construction and grip that would allow one to plausibly kick while wielding one.

It should also be noted that most martial arts styles (particularly the more combative ones - jeet kun do, krav maga, etc.) actually make light use of kicks. Often, they're little more than low "jabs" intended to put the opponent off-balance allowing for easier strikes to the upper body. As such, tripping or perhaps a variant of the feint manoeuvre would probably be allowed as a kick without nearly as much penalty.

Obviously there are styles that make heavy use of kicks like capoiera, savate, and fairly brutal muay thai, but those are certainly the purview of brawlers and martial artists rather than fighters who wield heavy weapons.

Grand Lodge

All PCs can kick, or headbutt, with their hands full.

They need no special feats, or Monk levels.


Byakko wrote:
chbgraphicarts: I think I'm agreeing with you, but I balk a little at your "Attack Iteration" terminology.

That's what an "iteration" is though.

The whole system is even called "iterative attacks" in just about every Forum out there.

No need to balk at what the thing's been called for 15 years.


wraithstrike wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:


To make use of unarmed strikes as an off-hand weapon, I recommend weapon and shield + unarmed strike. Perhaps be a Tengu. They get to use Bastard Swords as Martial Weapons. Dwarves do, too, only they call their Bastard Swords Dwarven Waraxes. Anyway, you can make your full attack with weapon and unarmed strike, and you still get to use your shield for your AC bonus. If you really want to use a 2 handed weapon, consider a few levels in Fighter with Phalanx Soldier Archetype. They can use a polearm 1 handed in conjunction with a shield. You can still use your unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. Use a Halberd; develop a Trip Build with Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, and you can work in an unarmed Attack of Opportunity feature blended elegantly in with your weapon combo. There's no problem with using a 2 handed weapon in combination with unarmed attacks of opportunity.

I have specific suggestions.

Phalanx soldier says you can use any polearm as a one-handed weapon. Technically it is still a two handed weapon, but since you are using it as a one-handed weapon it does not get the 1.5 boost to strength. It does provide reach however.

True, when the Phalanx Soldier uses a pole arm 1 handed, he only gets his St bonus, not 1.5X St bonus. But the Monk Unarmed Strike will also get the full St bonus, not 0.5 like most off-hand weapons.

There is a great variety of polearms with a great variety of special features, so a phalanx fighter might not specialize, instead have a couple on hand: the right tool for the job.

You were mentioning Reach. For that, I might carry a Horse Chopper, reach, Trip, slashing, and piercing that does 1d10, and a Lucerne Hammer 1d12 Piercing and Bludgeoning, Reach, and Brace.

But since the OP was talking about 2 weapon fighting using unarmed strikes as an off-hand weapon, I was thinking more Halberd: Piercing, Slashing, Brace, and Trip that does 1d10. The OP can develop a Trip build with Vicious Stomp, allowing an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity with every time his opponents go Prone. This stacks with Greater Trip. If he takes Both Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, he'll get 2 AoO's with each successful trip. Reach weapons are awesome, but using them, the OP wouldn't have as much use of his unarmed strikes if he were always attacking with Reach.


wraithstrike: I did mention that thread wasn't he one I was looking for, but it's still a good read for anyone wanting to learn more.

chbgraphicarts: Iterative attacks, yes, is terminology that's been used for quite a while. Just be careful not to lump offhand attacks (including improved two weapon fighting and the like) in with them, as they're not BAB based extra attacks and are thus subject to different rules.


Yeah.. I had wanted to rock a a Dwarf Ranger with TWF who used a Longhammer, and a Boulder-helmet for 'off-hand' head-butts. I think it would be awesome and hilarious, sadly.. it doesnt work :(


Neonpeekaboo wrote:
Yeah.. I had wanted to rock a a Dwarf Ranger with TWF who used a Longhammer, and a Boulder-helmet for 'off-hand' head-butts. I think it would be awesome and hilarious, sadly.. it doesnt work :(

You can't TWF but they make an awesome combo as you can threaten both 5' and 10'. Plus the Boulder-helmet feats are interesting. Take a adamantine helmet and it can suck up a LOT of damage from a crit. For even more fun, add Impervious to it. The Cloven Helm feat plus a +1 adamantine Impervious boulder helmet means a crit has to make it through a hardness 44 before it goes into the helmets 58 hp: so a crit under 103 does no damage to you except stunning you for a round.

Grand Lodge

Neonpeekaboo wrote:
Yeah.. I had wanted to rock a a Dwarf Ranger with TWF who used a Longhammer, and a Boulder-helmet for 'off-hand' head-butts. I think it would be awesome and hilarious, sadly.. it doesnt work :(

That combo works just fine.

You can't two-weapon fight with both, but you can certainly threaten, and make AoOs with both.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Neonpeekaboo wrote:
Yeah.. I had wanted to rock a a Dwarf Ranger with TWF who used a Longhammer, and a Boulder-helmet for 'off-hand' head-butts. I think it would be awesome and hilarious, sadly.. it doesnt work :(

That combo works just fine.

You can't two-weapon fight with both, but you can certainly threaten, and make AoOs with both.

Also, you could Cleave and Great Cleave with both.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Monks do it.
Monks do what?
Effectively two-weapon fight, with two-handed weapons.

You're talking about using Flurry of Blows while using one of those weird Monk-weapon pole arms? Yeah, they can do that, but Flurry of Blows is its own special kind of action. It might look similar, but it is quite different from 2 weapon fighting.

Grand Lodge

Really?

Extra attack, with penalties. It even references Two-Weapon Fighting, in it's description. The very first sentence.

Hell, before the FAQ, you had to use two different weapons during a Flurry.

It's different, but at it's core, it's just two-weapon fighting, with a twist.

Also, what do you mean "weird Monk-weapon pole arms"?

Like, the Quarterstaff?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Really?

Extra attack, with penalties. It even references Two-Weapon Fighting, in it's description. The very first sentence.

Hell, before the FAQ, you had to use two different weapons during a Flurry.

It's different, but at it's core, it's just two-weapon fighting, with a twist.

Also, what do you mean "weird Monk-weapon pole arms"?

Like, the Quarterstaff?

Well, yeah. Flurry of Blows is a Full-Round Action which is not a Full Attack Action. There may or may not be off-hand attacks. A monk might have either, neither or both hands full. A Monk can perform his full Flurry with 1 or more hands, feet, elbows, head-butts, or even a single Monk Weapon in any combination, including those weird Monk Pole weapons like Monk Spade, Sansetsukon, Tiger Fork, Seven Branched Sword, and yes, the quarterstaff.

You can, for instance perform a Flurry of Blows, taking all your attacks exclusively with a Temple Sword, no off hand weapon required. You can perform your Flurry with any combination of Unarmed Strikes and Tiger Fork, but a Monk can't do that with a Halberd. A Monk can do that with a Tiger Fork because it is a Monk weapon. "Monk" is a special weapon property that indicates that a Monk can use it with the Flurry of Blows class feature. The Flurry of Blows class feature does not, I believe, benefit from the Two Weapon Fighting Feat, but Monk might benefit from the Two Weapon Fighting Feat for the purposes of making a Full Attack with a primary and an off-hand weapon which is different from Flurry of Blows. Such a Monk could make such a Full Attack while wearing armor, for instance when he couldn't Flurry at all.

Conceptually, Flurry of Blows may have similar origins to two weapon fighting, but I feel well-justified in thinking they are are another species of animal. And while FoB may have a place in a discussion of how to use Unarmed Strikes as off-hand weapons, I do think it is worth noting that it's governed by its own set of rules that makes it work differently from 2weapon fighting.


Flurry of Blows would not benefit from Two Weapon Fighting, correct... partially because it IS Two-weapon fighting. A very specific version of it, letting a monk make extra attacks, all at a -2, using his level as his BAB.

Could a monk take TWF? Sure thing. He would have to meet all the prereqs for it. He would have to use different weapons, sure ok, but it's still moot, as there is no such thing as Off-Hand for him.

Could a monk use one attack from Flurry and hit with a quarterstaff, and his second attack with a kick? Yes, Flurry specifically says he can.

Could a monk take the actual TWF feats, and use.. say a quarterstaff, and make an attack with the quarterstaff, and then one with his kick? I'd say No, because you cant TWF with a two-handed weapon.

"When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability)."

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / TWFing a two handed weapon and kicks? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.