Bard. The best class?? inquiring minds seek thoughts.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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rorek55 wrote:


You do realize the best you can do is 18d6 at 20. Studied target goes away immediately after you deal studied strike damage. It takes a swift to activate it. You do know this...

And it still out damages the rogue. I built one, and did not even know they could get mutagens until it was too late. This was done in a thread where someone claimed that an investigator could not best a rogue in skills and damage. That was the first investigator I ever made. I made enough "not optimal" decisions with the investigator that other posters were pointing other things out that I could have done to make the damage be higher.

Other than the sap using rogue archetype I don't see a rogue competing.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Equal system mastery and creativeness is a literal impossibility, as no two people are alike (the very fact they chose two different classes is merely one indication of this) so arguing that type of hypothetical is a waste of effort.
That doesn't make it an impossibility, it just means that you need the same player to build the Bard and the Wizard. Xp
I said player, not builder. It is not only the tools available, but the creative implementation of those tools as well. And you can't really play against yourself to your fullest ability, because you automatically know your own tactics and cannot suprise yourself or come up with plans that you yourself could not counter.

They dont have to be perfectly equal. The stronger a class is innately the more it makes up for the gap in building ability. If someone knows the game as well as I do they are not going to lose to me if I have a bard. I am not saying I can never ever think of a way to pull ahead or get lucky, but most of the time I wont be winning, not if they are not trying to make it interesting anyway.

PS: I know I used the word "I", but the point was that it applies in many other situations also. That paragraph was not really all about me. <--Had to point it out before the "Everyone is not you" comment came up.

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:
rorek55 wrote:


You do realize the best you can do is 18d6 at 20. Studied target goes away immediately after you deal studied strike damage. It takes a swift to activate it. You do know this...

And it still out damages the rogue. I built one, and did not even know they could get mutagens until it was too late. This was done in a thread where someone claimed that an investigator could not best a rogue in skills and damage. That was the first investigator I ever made. I made enough "not optimal" decisions with the investigator that other posters were pointing other things out that I could have done to make the damage be higher.

Other than the sap using rogue archetype I don't see a rogue competing.

Sorry. I wasnt saying the rogue out damaged the investigator. I was merely pointing out that a rogue could get sneak attack on EVERY hit :p

Also, there was a nifty build here that abused major magic+ Quickened SLA for fatigue touch sneak attacks. (Off topic but eh)

Silver Crusade

On another note, I'd allow the bard to perform his death song before initiative is rolled after a passed bluff or two and as a 'finale' to a 10+ min long performance. (Whether RAW allow it or not), as it makes sense to me.

Now, that said many aren't me and if RAW doesn't allow it I fully drop that point.

Shadow Lodge

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Who the f*#@ throws single characters against single characters?

The entire argument is a non-starter due to irrelevance.


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TOZ wrote:

Who the f+!@ throws single characters against single characters?

The entire argument is a non-starter due to irrelevance.

Considering one of the characters is a bard. The encounter probably happens in the bed chambers with a thoroughly seduced wizard.


rorek55 wrote:
I was merely pointing out that a rogue could get sneak attack on EVERY hit

Again, doesn't matter. Could is not the same as will. In theory, the rogue could, but you're not going to. Just like how you could roll all 6 on your d6's, but you're not going to. The rogue can't reliably flat-foot an enemy and won't always be able to flank.

rorek55 wrote:
On another note, I'd allow the bard to perform his death song before initiative is rolled after a passed bluff or two and as a 'finale' to a 10+ min long performance. (Whether RAW allow it or not), as it makes sense to me.

That's not untill 20th level. Preforming it should start initative and be part of the surprise round (and therefore can't be finished that round, since it isn't a full-round and not just a standard/move action). Or I do hope you allow anybody else to act before initative as well and not just bards.

Silver Crusade

Rub-Eta wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
I was merely pointing out that a rogue could get sneak attack on EVERY hit

Again, doesn't matter. Could is not the same as will. In theory, the rogue could, but you're not going to. Just like how you could roll all 6 on your d6's, but you're not going to. The rogue can't reliably flat-foot an enemy and won't always be able to flank.

rorek55 wrote:
On another note, I'd allow the bard to perform his death song before initiative is rolled after a passed bluff or two and as a 'finale' to a 10+ min long performance. (Whether RAW allow it or not), as it makes sense to me.
That's not untill 20th level. Preforming it should start initative and be part of the surprise round (and therefore can't be finished that round, since it isn't a full-round and not just a standard/move action). Or I do hope you allow anybody else to act before initative as well and not just bards.

regarding the rogue- I was making a point that rogues get SA for free every hit, investigators don't I wasn't trying to defend, or belittle the rogue. Just simply stating that a rogue technically has SA on all his attack, but only gets to put it to use vs flanked or FF enemies.

You play it your way, I'll play it mine, and when I do PFS or go to another gaming table we I will play their way.

If a rogue sneaks up on an unsuspecting NPC/PC what have you, and the other character has no idea they are there, I will easily give that rogue a full round worth of a turn before the other character acts. Because for me it's realistic.

If someone can bluff/seduce their way into someones good graces, and then once they have them all friendly stabs them when their back is turned,yes, I'd allow them that action.

If a bard went to as much trouble to bluff/disguise his way past the wizard, and then convince him he was merely performing for the "all powerful wizard" and as his "finale" played the "death song" Yes. I'd allow him that full round before the wizard realizes whats going on, because before that will save, he probably wouldn't realize what is going on. He just thinks he is listening to a performance.

same goes for countless other scenario's. But that's just me.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rhedyn wrote:
TOZ wrote:

Who the f+!@ throws single characters against single characters?

The entire argument is a non-starter due to irrelevance.

Considering one of the characters is a bard. The encounter probably happens in the bed chambers with a thoroughly seduced wizard.

Somebody better be writing that slashfic.

Silver Crusade

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
TOZ wrote:

Who the f+!@ throws single characters against single characters?

The entire argument is a non-starter due to irrelevance.

Considering one of the characters is a bard. The encounter probably happens in the bed chambers with a thoroughly seduced wizard.
Somebody better be writing that slashfic.

mwahahahahaha


Symar wrote:
I'll get back to you in 18 months after my groups all-bard campaign is over.

Wait,somebody is actually doing this? Cool! Is this a PbP, or does it have a campaign journal? What AP (if applicable)? I want to see this work!


Real wizards are too paranoid to allow random bards to seduce or play death songs for them. The second anything like this begin a knowledge check, initiative roll, etc. would begin.

If the wizard and bard know they are bound for conflict especially. The impression I am getting is that for some reason the bard is keeping his attack secret. But if both parties are stealthily trying to assassinate each other the wizard will still win.

If the combat is on equal terms where both parties are equally aware of both the combat and its parameters the wizards will win; far too much flexibility compared to the bard.

Silver Crusade

just another note, If the wizard does use a SoS spell (or, any spell with a save) against a sandman bard, and the bard makes his save, he will most likely eat his own spell in his face. (At level 20)


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So in terms of the best

Best as in most powerful: Not Bard

Best as in best designed class in core: Bard.

Best as in best able to make a party feel strong without feeling useless: Bard

Best as in best able to bust a move: Bard

Bards are one of the best classes for a variety of reasons, but they need a bit of building expertise to reach full potential.

Silver Crusade

Insain Dragoon wrote:

So in terms of the best

Best as in most powerful: Not Bard

Best as in best designed class in core: Bard.

Best as in best able to make a party feel strong without feeling useless: Bard

Best as in best able to bust a move: Bard

Bards are one of the best classes for a variety of reasons, but they need a bit of building expertise to reach full potential.

I can agree with this, I've had an urge to make a bard that uses no weapons. And, to be honest, though spells and performance It seems quite possible. Also, I saw the FAQ on sound striker bard was buffed a bit, that's nice.

Sovereign Court

I have a bard that's now 15th level and he never swung a weapon. However he deliver melee and ranged touch spells about one round out of 3 or 4...

Weapon finesse, dodge and mobility is never wasted on a bard IMO...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rhedyn wrote:
Magic 8-ball says: Yes.

My Pebble's Pessimistic 8-Ball says Shove Off. :)


One problem that the Wizard has that the Bard DOESN'T have is that if the Wizard and Bard are worried about running into each other and prepare for each other, but then the Wizard runs afoul of something else first and has to use some of the prepared spells to deal with that, the Wizard's whole preparation is thrown off, whereas if the Bard runs afoul of something else first, the Bard can still cast all of the same spells and use all of the same Performances/Masterpieces as as before (as long as not totally depleted of some spellcasting levels or Bardic Performance rounds, just not as many of them. (Replace Wizard with Arcanist or Sorcerer and that problem goes away.)

Related to this, a Wizard could be tricked into mis-preparing for an encounter by an opponent who is scouting what the Wizard's party is doing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I can't tell if this thread is serious or not, so I will give a serious opinion.

Bard is not the strongest class, yet it is a solid class and far from the weakest class. Bards do their job of support well, are easily the source of plot clues and face skills. The right spell selection easily aids a group or hinders opponents. With that said, Bards tend to be force enhancers - they usually require a party to enhance and tend to lose value when split from a party to a greater extent than some other classes.

One should be careful to present that most entertainers in the world are skilled performance experts (as in the NPC expert class) rather than bards. Otherwise any cultural city would be over run by adventuring class NPCs capable of mind altering magic. Not every city guard is a fighter, not every minstrel is a bard.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

One problem that the Wizard has that the Bard DOESN'T have is that if the Wizard and Bard are worried about running into each other and prepare for each other, but then the Wizard runs afoul of something else first and has to use some of the prepared spells to deal with that, the Wizard's whole preparation is thrown off, whereas if the Bard runs afoul of something else first, the Bard can still cast all of the same spells and use all of the same Performances/Masterpieces as as before (as long as not totally depleted of some spellcasting levels or Bardic Performance rounds, just not as many of them. (Replace Wizard with Arcanist or Sorcerer and that problem goes away.)

Related to this, a Wizard could be tricked into mis-preparing for an encounter by an opponent who is scouting what the Wizard's party is doing.

This is not exactly true because it is based on the "perfect spell" theory. However in actual game play you don't need the best spell for a situation. You just need a good enough spell.

As an example if I need to get inside of a room, and I already cast passwall, which would allow me to go through the wall without leaving evidence then I have other options. An example is disintegrate. In this case it is not a good a tool, but it is a tool that works. Depending on my level I can also summon a giant or call an outsider to break through the wall.

I understand that it is possible to have any spells that work, but at higher levels this is much less likely.

With that aside any bard or wizard adventuring alone is probably in trouble if they get jumped with no buffs up.

I don't know how any opponent is tricking the wizard into prepping the wrong spells. Most wizards have general spells that work in basically any fight. If they prep all of their spells for a certain type of combat, they are probably going to die at low levels anyway.

Silver Crusade

Remember the basic tenant of any other class versus the wizard is that the wizard always has the perfect spell prepared regardless of the situation, and the other class hasn't memorized spells, forgot to buy equipment, and automatically loses initiative. :-)

And I agree that tbe bard is an excellent class. It's been a favorite of mine since 2E.


Quote:
Remember the basic tenant of any other class versus the wizard is that the wizard always has the perfect spell prepared regardless of the situation, and the other class hasn't memorized spells, forgot to buy equipment, and automatically loses initiative.

No, buuuut...

1. If the wizard is a DIVINER, then yes, the Diviner wins initiative.
2. If the characters are high level, the wizard has advantage because the wizard only needs to know ONE OR TWO SPELLS that they'll probably have ready because those spells are good, general spells. Namely: Time Stop and a means of getting the Heck out of there. Once gone, the wizard can prepare spells to deal with the bard. Diviners specifically are good at this because they are the most likely of any class to go first in initiative.
3. At lower to mid range levels, the bard is much more capable of dealing with a wizard and it's more of a toss-up.


sowhereaminow wrote:

Remember the basic tenant of any other class versus the wizard is that the wizard always has the perfect spell prepared regardless of the situation, and the other class hasn't memorized spells, forgot to buy equipment, and automatically loses initiative. :-)

And I agree that tbe bard is an excellent class. It's been a favorite of mine since 2E.

Try and beat a 78 Initiative. Not +78, just 78. Flat. Arkalion will wait. (I could beat that mind you, but best of luck.)


Anzyr wrote:
sowhereaminow wrote:

Remember the basic tenant of any other class versus the wizard is that the wizard always has the perfect spell prepared regardless of the situation, and the other class hasn't memorized spells, forgot to buy equipment, and automatically loses initiative. :-)

And I agree that tbe bard is an excellent class. It's been a favorite of mine since 2E.

Try and beat a 78 Initiative. Not +78, just 78. Flat. Arkalion will wait. (I could beat that mind you, but best of luck.)

Doesn't have to.

Bard auto-wins because the wizard decides to ally with the Bard. Or the bard found a non-violent means to settle their differences.


Rhedyn wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
sowhereaminow wrote:

Remember the basic tenant of any other class versus the wizard is that the wizard always has the perfect spell prepared regardless of the situation, and the other class hasn't memorized spells, forgot to buy equipment, and automatically loses initiative. :-)

And I agree that tbe bard is an excellent class. It's been a favorite of mine since 2E.

Try and beat a 78 Initiative. Not +78, just 78. Flat. Arkalion will wait. (I could beat that mind you, but best of luck.)

Doesn't have to.

Bard auto-wins because the wizard decides to ally with the Bard. Or the bard found a non-violent means to settle their differences.

So in other words the only winning move for the Bard is not to play.

Sounds about right.


Snowblind wrote:

So in other words the only winning move for the Bard is not to play.

Sounds about right.

Or just convince the wizard to be his friend and then coup de grace the wizard in his sleep.


wraithstrike wrote:

{. . .}

With that aside any bard or wizard adventuring alone is probably in trouble if they get jumped with no buffs up.

I don't know how any opponent is tricking the wizard into prepping the wrong spells. Most wizards have general spells that work in basically any fight. If they prep all of their spells for a certain type of combat, they are probably going to die at low levels anyway.

The problem for the Wizard (or any other prepared spellcaster) is that the Wizard has to figure out how many times each spell of each level is likely to be needed. Guess it wrong, and (if you guessed too low) you're out of that type of spells even if you have other prepared spells of that level left uncast, or (if you guessed too high) you're out of other spells of that level, because not very many will fit in at each level. You could prepare several of the most generalist spells of each level, but then you're giving up some of the strength of being able to prepare any spell in your spellbook (or equivalent) that you are high enough level to cast.

So, the plan for the Evil Overlord is to keep throwing tough but expendable minions at the Wizard. Not EXACTLY the same, but fitting a theme to steer the Wizard's preparation in a certain direction. If possible, have these minions be cheaper than they look. Lure the Wizard's party in deeper into your enclave so that they have to expend more resources than they should be comfortable with, but let them have enough successes to convince themselves that they can handle it. Only do this long enough to get a good feel for the Wizard's spell preparation tacts -- you don't want to keep it up so long that they tome up off your minions. If the Wizard isn't blowing through enough spells of a certain level, plant a scroll on your minions of a spell of that level that is attractively (but not overwhelmingly) useful against that type of minion, but not against much else, and then up the flood of minions so that the new spell doesn't provide much relief for the rest of the Wizard's arsenal. Then, when you're good and ready to jump the Wizard's party, at the end of a particularly long slog for them, hit them HARD with something that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Profit.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

{. . .}

With that aside any bard or wizard adventuring alone is probably in trouble if they get jumped with no buffs up.

I don't know how any opponent is tricking the wizard into prepping the wrong spells. Most wizards have general spells that work in basically any fight. If they prep all of their spells for a certain type of combat, they are probably going to die at low levels anyway.

The problem for the Wizard (or any other prepared spellcaster) is that the Wizard has to figure out how many times each spell of each level is likely to be needed. Guess it wrong, and (if you guessed too low) you're out of that type of spells even if you have other prepared spells of that level left uncast, or (if you guessed too high) you're out of other spells of that level, because not very many will fit in at each level. You could prepare several of the most generalist spells of each level, but then you're giving up some of the strength of being able to prepare any spell in your spellbook (or equivalent) that you are high enough level to cast.

So, the plan for the Evil Overlord is to keep throwing tough but expendable minions at the Wizard. Not EXACTLY the same, but fitting a theme to steer the Wizard's preparation in a certain direction. If possible, have these minions be cheaper than they look. Lure the Wizard's party in deeper into your enclave so that they have to expend more resources than they should be comfortable with, but let them have enough successes to convince themselves that they can handle it. Only do this long enough to get a good feel for the Wizard's spell preparation tacts -- you don't want to keep it up so long that they tome up off your minions. If the Wizard isn't blowing through enough spells of a certain level, plant a scroll on your minions of a spell of that level that is attractively (but not overwhelmingly) useful against that type of minion, but not against much else, and then up the flood of minions so that the new spell doesn't...

I have never seen this happen in a real game for a variety of reasons. I am not saying it can't work, but it is one of those anecdotal things.


Xexyz wrote:
Snowblind wrote:

So in other words the only winning move for the Bard is not to play.

Sounds about right.

Or just convince the wizard to be his friend and then coup de grace the wizard in his sleep.

Who needs friends. No really, what wizard does.

Ah magic, y u so ****ed up.


I love bards, but I also love wizards.
I don't want them to fight.
DM dictates bard-wizard conflict illegal and must instead be resolved by hugs.

DM wins. So do the bards and the wizards.

But seriously, bard most likely loses at level three and above.


I find the Bard is actually quite weak - if a normal "doesn't read Bard-optimization threads" player tries to make one. The class theme suggests an all-rounder, which encourages fairly even stat distribution, which tends to leave you as a useful buffer with good skill points but virtually no ability to directly harm an enemy.


My first Bard I thought "Man, I wanna be a singing archer! That way I wont have to front line and if I need to move to support an ally I wont be in melee provoking to move."

Turns out that character did his job very very well. Did pretty decent damage on his bow and was always ready to throw his spells around.

Grand Lodge

Insain Dragoon wrote:

My first Bard I thought "Man, I wanna be a singing archer! That way I wont have to front line and if I need to move to support an ally I wont be in melee provoking to move."

Turns out that character did his job very very well. Did pretty decent damage on his bow and was always ready to throw his spells around.

There is a high level (due to cost) item in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox for this concept.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

My first Bard I thought "Man, I wanna be a singing archer! That way I wont have to front line and if I need to move to support an ally I wont be in melee provoking to move."

Turns out that character did his job very very well. Did pretty decent damage on his bow and was always ready to throw his spells around.

It certainly helps if you build the character around a concept like "archer who can do other stuff as well" and take the relevant archery feats.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

My first Bard I thought "Man, I wanna be a singing archer! That way I wont have to front line and if I need to move to support an ally I wont be in melee provoking to move."

Turns out that character did his job very very well. Did pretty decent damage on his bow and was always ready to throw his spells around.

My first bard I thought "Man, how fast get I get this f***er to die if I charge at everything with no regard to my personal safety? I can point-but myself all the way down to 7con, that way this walking avatar of mediocrity can bite it even faster!"

Turns out I lost a bet with my GM and the penalty was I had to play a human no archetype bard. He knew I disliked playing humans and I loathed playing bards. Also turns out I'm not a very good sport when I lose bets, especially when I find out they were fixed when the GM in question laughs about it a session in and explains how it was.

Two sessions by the way. It took two frickin sessions because the other players were really protective of their allies, and the rule was I couldn't flat-out kill my character by, say, jumping off a cliff.

Grand Lodge

Best class:

Most Powerful - No, 9th level casters and summoners beat them out fairly handily in raw power to throw around.

Best buff: Probably (though many a Cleric would have an argument here)

Most versatile: Including archetypes not in my opinion, that would go to the Alchemist. Without them, maybe but realistically you see a lot of very similar builds with different RP.

Skill Monkey: Mathematically yes, because of skill overlap and bardic knowledge. Functionally in actual skills spent probably a little closer due to maxing 2 ranks of perform per level, but yeah probably.

Best Arcane Caster: No

Best 6 level caster: No

Best Troubadour: Sure

Best saves: No

Best Core Class: See above, depends on what you're talking about, but no.

Best damage output: Depends on if you count damage that their buffs allow to happen since their buff took it from a hit to a miss, and count additional damage their buffs do as theirs. If so, maybe but again a number of other classes can buff pretty well too. If not then no.

Best at shutting down combats by themselves: Not in my opinion. Kitsune Enchanter Sorcerers with a couple bloodlines have more options, more spell levels, and probably a bluff or diplomacy score on par with a bard.

So all in all is a bard the best class. It depends, I would generally say no, but it could be the best for a concept.


Snowblind wrote:

Who needs friends. No really, what wizard does.

Ah magic, y u so ****ed up.

FYI, dominating everyone around you just makes enemies in the end. And if the wizard just isolates himself from everyone it just makes it all the more easy to manipulate and deceive him.

Silver Crusade

who do you feel beats the bard on most powerful 6th level caster and why?

Magus?


rorek55 wrote:

who do you feel beats the bard on most powerful 6th level caster and why?

Magus?

Summoners

But that's a trick answer because summoners are actually 9th level casters


If you can get over the fact that your character is dancing a pirouette/playing a banjo/singing through a kazoo during a deadly combat (or while the party's rogue -with some irritation- is trying desperately to focus while disarming a deadly poison trap, while the bard next to him is singing "Boooooonus to disarming! Tralla-la-la-la!!"), then yes, aesthetics aside bards are mechanically powerful if built correctly. Order of the Stick notwithstanding.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My bards perform oratory, with grant speeches or vile imprecations.

Silly instruments are not required.

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman used Perform Oratory.


rorek55 wrote:

who do you feel beats the bard on most powerful 6th level caster and why?

Magus?

Summoner or Magus, yes, assuming optimization.

Magus built for raw damage can out-dps anyone at level 3-10, whether by intensified empowered spellstrikes or by bladed dash allowing him to move around the battlefield dumping doubled attacks on enemies (particularly if he cast chill touch or elemental touch beforehand).

Summoners simply through sheer blockage and swarms of grommit mob attacks. (Enemy either has to kill all his minions and his eidolon to get to him, or risk 5 attacks of opportunity minimum just to get to him), and that's not counting the summoner's other spells (spiked pits etc).
There's just no way to survive falling into a spiked pit, then having a bunch of imps dropped in with you. Climb or die, or climb and die.

Edit (assuming your enemy is of a similar level/CR to 6, and isn't flying)


TriOmegaZero wrote:

My bards perform oratory, with grant speeches or vile imprecations.

Silly instruments are not required.

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman used Perform Oratory.

Yeah, I admit- bards don't *have* to play instruments/sing/dance, but I'm just saying, I think I've just been spoiled on the whole concept of taking bards seriously since I read Order of the Stick.

This is how I think of them....

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html

Sovereign Court

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Aemesh wrote:
rorek55 wrote:

who do you feel beats the bard on most powerful 6th level caster and why?

Magus?

Summoner or Magus, yes, assuming optimization.

Magus built for raw damage can out-dps anyone at level 3-10, whether by intensified empowered spellstrikes or by bladed dash allowing him to move around the battlefield dumping doubled attacks on enemies (particularly if he cast chill touch or elemental touch beforehand).

Summoners simply through sheer blockage and swarms of grommit mob attacks. (Enemy either has to kill all his minions and his eidolon to get to him, or risk 5 attacks of opportunity minimum just to get to him), and that's not counting the summoner's other spells (spiked pits etc).
There's just no way to survive falling into a spiked pit, then having a bunch of imps dropped in with you. Climb or die, or climb and die.

Edit (assuming your enemy is of a similar level/CR to 6, and isn't flying)

In a duel? Definitely. For the benefit of the party? Debatable.

I mean - my PFS bard does very little damage - but he buffs, is generally the tankiest character in the party, and I'm working on getting greater feint in a couple levels. (Give up an iterative rapier attack with my strength of 12 to make them flatfooted? Yes please.)

He would get crushed in a duel against a halfway decent magus or summoner - but are they more useful to the group? Maybe. Maybe not. *shrug*


Comparing the Bard to the Magus isn't really fair; the Magus has a very specific spell list designed to maximize his damage output while the Bard has a lot of support utility that doesn't prevent him from performing adequately in terms of DPR. Bard vs. Magus is a less relevant debate than Bard vs. Cleric or Magus vs. Barbarian because with those two groups you're comparing two classes with similar roles (assuming the Cleric is built as a buffer of course).

Scarab Sages

TriOmegaZero wrote:

My bards perform oratory, with grant speeches or vile imprecations.

Silly instruments are not required.

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman used Perform Oratory.

You won the thread, maggot!


Yeah, Bard vs. Magus is two setups that are meant to be totally different and so they're... well, totally different. Which would I rather play? Magus, but I'm biased there. Which would I rather see in my party? Going to depend on the rest of the group. Which is more 'powerful'? Well, how are we defining it. If it's another "who's going to win in a fight", then the Bard doesn't have any of the tricks that the Magus hates (elemental resistance/immunities-- to either Electricity or Cold/Nonlethal, depending on the build), the base premise doesn't really cater to the vast majority of Bards (presumably we'd be talking 1v1, which a Magus does fine at-- wonderfully at, in fact, but is by definition not the Bard's preference), and the Magus doesn't greatly fear any of the Bard's tricks unless he's massively pumped the DC. So Magus-- but that doesn't necessarily tell us much.

Bard vs. Summoner is easier. Most of the time I'm going to want the Summoner in the party. The rest of the time, I want the Bard because we already have a Summoner and a Summoner with Bard support is just funny.


kestral287 wrote:

Yeah, Bard vs. Magus is two setups that are meant to be totally different and so they're... well, totally different. Which would I rather play? Magus, but I'm biased there. Which would I rather see in my party? Going to depend on the rest of the group. Which is more 'powerful'? Well, how are we defining it. If it's another "who's going to win in a fight", then the Bard doesn't have any of the tricks that the Magus hates (elemental resistance/immunities-- to either Electricity or Cold/Nonlethal, depending on the build), the base premise doesn't really cater to the vast majority of Bards (presumably we'd be talking 1v1, which a Magus does fine at-- wonderfully at, in fact, but is by definition not the Bard's preference), and the Magus doesn't greatly fear any of the Bard's tricks unless he's massively pumped the DC. So Magus-- but that doesn't necessarily tell us much.

Bard vs. Summoner is easier. Most of the time I'm going to want the Summoner in the party. The rest of the time, I want the Bard because we already have a Summoner and a Summoner with Bard support is just funny.

Fair points, both. In a large party - (particularly with summoned hordes, ahem ahem) - bard is probably the better choice, just because mathematically all those buffs and bonuses add up to a bunch of extra damage / boost up everyone equally in a combat.

But assuming he's singing and not an orator, then... C'mon. It's... wierd. (I can't get over it >.<, he's singing. In a fight. I know, i know, it's borderline neurotic, but....)

Though if one of my players made a "Gun. Sgt. Hartman" bard, they would totally win me over (Gotta be a skald, fo' serious)

"What. Do. Adventurers. Do?"
Party: "Kill! Kill! Kill!" (while they get inspired to +3 hit and damage)

Shadow Lodge

BLOOD! BLOOD! BRIGHT RED BLOOD MAKES THE GREEN GRASS GROW!

Silver Crusade

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The players of a fighter, cleric, wizard and bard are discussing their characters. The fighter player brags he can kill anyone with a full round action. The cleric player responds he can do the same with a single standard action spell. Not to be one upped, the wizard points out he can obliterate anyone with swift action spell. The bard player simply muses, "I can get three guys to kill people for me." :-)

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