Bludgeoning acid splash???


Advice


Hello all, I am playing a ninja, and I have sap master and a level in sorcer, I already have making them flat footed worked out, but I need all your great minds to figure out how to make acid splash/ray of frost do bludgeoning damage, BRAINSTORM COMMENCE!!!

Grand Lodge

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Ray of Frost, Weapon Focus(Ray), and Weapon Versatility.

Now, this is disputed RAW. Check with you DM.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ray of Frost, Weapon Focus(Ray), and Weapon Versatility.

Now, this is disputed RAW. Check with you DM.

Thank you very much :D

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Ray of Frost + Liquid Ice as a power component lets you deal piercing damage with Ray of Frost, so it would be a little easier to justify using Weapon Versatility to turn the piercing damage to bludgeoning damage than it would cold to bludgeoning.


Thanks, but its expensive, ehh, good try, its not gonna fly with my gm though, thx for the effort guys.


25 gp is expensive?


Rynjin wrote:
25 gp is expensive?

No, but I dont want to have to carry 10 bottles with me, and this is more of a backup plan for emergancies, so not worth 2 feats and some noesistant weight.


pinny0101 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
25 gp is expensive?
No, but I dont want to have to carry 10 bottles with me, and this is more of a backup plan for emergancies, so not worth 2 feats and some noesistant weight.

You only need the one bottle when using it with ray of frost. It acts as a focus, not a material component


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
pinny0101 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
25 gp is expensive?
No, but I dont want to have to carry 10 bottles with me, and this is more of a backup plan for emergancies, so not worth 2 feats and some noesistant weight.
You only need the one bottle when using it with ray of frost. It acts as a focus, not a material component

Nope, Ray of Frost (M): The spell creates an icicle of frozen water vapor that strikes the target and deals 1d3 points of piercing damage and 1 point of cold damage. the focus does +1 dmage


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
pinny0101 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
25 gp is expensive?
No, but I dont want to have to carry 10 bottles with me, and this is more of a backup plan for emergancies, so not worth 2 feats and some noesistant weight.
You only need the one bottle when using it with ray of frost. It acts as a focus, not a material component

The icicle needs it used as a material power component. The best method is to take False Focus.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
pinny0101 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
25 gp is expensive?
No, but I dont want to have to carry 10 bottles with me, and this is more of a backup plan for emergancies, so not worth 2 feats and some noesistant weight.
You only need the one bottle when using it with ray of frost. It acts as a focus, not a material component

Nope, Ray of Frost (M): The spell creates an icicle of frozen water vapor that strikes the target and deals 1d3 points of piercing damage and 1 point of cold damage. the focus does +1 damage


Even if you deal bludgeoning damage with your spell, it's not a bludgeoning weapon, sorry.

Grand Lodge

Rays are considered weapons.

If you are dealing Bludgeoning with a Ray, then you you are dealing it with a weapon.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Rays are considered weapons.

If you are dealing Bludgeoning with a Ray, then you you are dealing it with a weapon.

Yep, it's why you can take weapon focus in it. :)

Sczarni

Maybe you should expand the question slightly. Are you looking for ways to make Acid Splash/Ray of Frost deal bludgeoning damage or would any bludgeoning ranged touch attack suffice? It might expand your options. Guns can for example deal bludgeoning/piercing damage on touch AC within 20 ft. of target.

Adam

Grand Lodge

Blunt Arrows deal Bludgeoning.

Boomerangs, Bolas, and Slaver's Crossbows deal bludgeoning.

Liberty's Edge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ray of Frost, Weapon Focus(Ray), and Weapon Versatility.

Now, this is disputed RAW. Check with you DM.

I'm sorry, but you can't use Weapon Versatility in this way.

Weapon Versatility (Combat):

You can use your favored weapons in unconventional ways.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +1

Benefit(s): When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by that weapon. You may switch back to the weapon's normal damage type or another damage type as a swift action.

If your base attack bonus is +5 or higher, using this feat is a free action instead.

How exactly would you change your grip when casting a ray spell?

Grand Lodge

Yeah, that "switch you grip" line makes many crap blood.

Weapon Versatility works fine with Unarmed Strikes, Bites, Dwarven Boulder Helmets, Armor Spikes, Boot Blades, Claws, Tail Slaps, etc.

If it helps, I usually see Rays, that require somatic components, as pointing a finger like a gun. So, maybe "switch your grip" is like doing the same thing, but with the hands sideways, like a gangsta.

Scarab Sages

For that matter, if you are creating an icicle with the focus component, is it still a ray?


RedDogMT wrote:

change your grip

Could you kindly point out the rules quote on change your grip and what is and isn't allowed? As far as I can tell, it's JUST what they call the swift action you have to take to use the feat and not a rules element but if you have a ruling that states otherwise please post.

Imbicatus wrote:
For that matter, if you are creating an icicle with the focus component, is it still a ray?

Nothing in the Power Component section changes anything other than the damage. I don't see anything under Ray that would invalidate it's still being a ray spell.

"Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.

If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.

If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit."

Sczarni

Graystone,

Some common sense would imply that Weapon Versatility was designed for actual melee weapons in mind. That's what RedDogMT is trying to say. You don't even need RAW quote for it. The text implies it but if you really need RAW quotes, you quoted it yourself: "You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon". The text of feat also mentions that you "wield" a weapon and rays aren't exactly "wielded".


graystone wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Rays are considered weapons.

If you are dealing Bludgeoning with a Ray, then you you are dealing it with a weapon.

Yep, it's why you can take weapon focus in it. :)

No, rays are not considered weapons, unfortunately, they are weaponlike (which is what makes them eligible for weapon focus and the like). You aim a ray as if it were a ranged weapon, meaning, again, that it is not a ranged weapon.


Does Wespon Versatility even work with ranged attacks? Could you use it with a bow, for example?

Grand Lodge

Gisher wrote:
Does Wespon Versatility even work with ranged attacks? Could you use it with a bow, for example?

According to everyone who rages at this feat?

Never.


Malag wrote:

Graystone,

Some common sense would imply that Weapon Versatility was designed for actual melee weapons in mind. That's what RedDogMT is trying to say. You don't even need RAW quote for it. The text implies it but if you really need RAW quotes, you quoted it yourself: "You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon". The text of feat also mentions that you "wield" a weapon and rays aren't exactly "wielded".

Hmmm... no matter how long I look at the feat, melee is not said once... Or Implied... Could YOU point out the section that you think refers to JUST melee and excluded ranged? Or better yet, explain why it makes total sense to slash or pierce with a club but trying to slash or bludgeon with an arrow freaks you out? Pretty much "common sense" went out the door when people could cut a rope with a staff... (Or karate chops that actually chop)

mplindustries wrote:
graystone wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Rays are considered weapons.

If you are dealing Bludgeoning with a Ray, then you you are dealing it with a weapon.

Yep, it's why you can take weapon focus in it. :)
No, rays are not considered weapons, unfortunately, they are weaponlike (which is what makes them eligible for weapon focus and the like). You aim a ray as if it were a ranged weapon, meaning, again, that it is not a ranged weapon.

Read the parts you quoted. "considered weapons" not are weapons. THAT'S what "weaponlike" means. I think the point is that if it's "weaponlike" for weapon focus/specialization, why isn't "weaponlike" enough for another feat that effects a weapon and it's damage type?

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Does Wespon Versatility even work with ranged attacks? Could you use it with a bow, for example?

According to everyone who rages at this feat?

Never.

Don't get me started. I just can't understand why melee weapons seem to make total sense but somehow ranged is completely unbelievable and beyond the realms of common sense. I'm baffled by it.


FAQ wrote:

Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)

For example, a bard's inspire courage ability says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so <you> don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.

The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.

Seems pretty clear to me : )

Is the Weapon Versatility an effect that affect weapons ? Yes

Thus - it should work : )

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