How viable is two weapon fighting for a class that only has 15 / 10 / 5 BAB


Advice


Even if I do have crazy dex and weapon finesse and two light weapons, how accurate would I be?
I was thinking of trying one of two things that would use twf and average BAB.

1st: insert stereotypical TWF ninja here. Ninjas are sweet, nuff said.

2nd: Master of many styles monk who uses his first perquisites free style feat to get jabbing style and TWF with his fists. I've wanted to find a way to make a sort of untouchable high dex high wis monk a viable option for a long time and think I may have found a decent avenue for doing this here.

Only thing I'm feeling is questionable is, how accurate would either of these be? If accuracy is going to be an issue are there any low feat cost ways of fixing this as they will be rather feat starved I think.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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1) TWF is a feat intensive build. Generally requires 4-6 feats. Feats that could be spent on other things.

2) The -2 to hit for TWF is the main reason TWF is worse then 2h fighting. A low BAB class is effectively magnifying this problem.

3) You have to pay for two weapons. In short, you have worse weapons, with lower TH bonuses.

4) You only get to TWF if you make a full attack...or spend yet another feat or take an archetype that allows you to attack with each weapon on a standard action or charge.

TWF is only going to be better for you if:

You get MONSTROUS bonuses to hit, or fight enemies with a low AC.

You get fixed damage bonuses per attack (like ranger FE, or Sneak Attack on every swing, or Paladin Smites) that stack on every swing.

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No, there is no way to fix the accuracy problem. All the typical bonuses to hit you get, you will also get on a non-TWF build. Buffing from the party will help you, but you have a low BAB to overcome.

Ninjas in stories are fighting people with no armor. People with no armor are easy to TWF. Monsters are not people with no armor.

Monks effectively get the TWF tree for free, but their increased damage by level is NOT enough to offset their lesser damage per swing. Pummeling style is probably the best to use, but there's a reason its banned in PFS.

TWF is simply a less effective style in Pathfinder. Your AC suffers, your ability to hit suffers, and your damage suffers.

If you want to TWF, restrict it to one attack and one feat. That will only matter when you full attack, the second attack is at relatively high to hit. It will gimp your iteratives, however. It's a little bit extra you can heap onto mooks or a low AC foes if need be.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

Usually classes with medium bab who relies on twf , is because they have bonuses to each hit (Sneak attack while flanking , to sneak attack each hit or in the case of ninja, they can become invisible to make their opponents flat footed, effectively reducing their AC). Monk because they don't get massive bonuses to hit, usually relies on flurry of blows to make up for it and having stronger unarmed strikes than normal, Master of Many styles losing flurry of blows, make two weapon fighting, not very effective to say the least.

All other full bab classes with twf, have a lot of bonuses to each hit (favored enemies/terrains for rangers, studied target for slayers, fighters with weapon training, focus, greater weapon focus and specialization line of feats etc...)


Alright, I figured the monk thing was a stretch plus the Jabbing style being illegal in pas is an issues this is a pas character. The ninja wasn't going to be twf but all the guides were singing the praises of twf.

Silver Crusade

Ninja- I love my Str ninja,

25pt buy is where its at!

16 str/dex/cha and you are solid haha, 2hand that katana baby!

3/4 BaB classes that can do well with TWF-

Inquisitor (the judgement that gives +1 to hit/5 levels balances out the BaB lost)
divine Favor can net you a total (with a trait) +4 to hit AND damage per hit.

the destruction judgements grants you +1damage/3 levels works amazing when TWF after you get the 2 judgements ability (note, the +1 to hit/5 is better more often than not for TWF)

Bane- 2d6 damage per weapon when you hit, Note, there is a feat to let you pop it on both.

drawback- Very few feats to use....

I'll post more later once I have a bit more free time


Pummeling style is not banned in PFS

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Thought the pummelling charge was ruled as a no-go? Something about how if any hit is a crit when you roll, the charge was a crit.

==Aelryinth


An inquisitor based on demon subdomain with judgements and such would be ridiculously accurate and deadly. A cleric based on the same idea is magnificent but must juggle spells and his second weapon. A battle oracle with or without war sight archetype is good for all of the bonus feats he gets for practically free. Because all three of those were spellcasters they have spells to assist as well.

These three I judge as worthy TWF and all others that are 3/4 as those that try and fail to be great at it


Aelryinth wrote:

Thought the pummelling charge was ruled as a no-go? Something about how if any hit is a crit when you roll, the charge was a crit.

==Aelryinth

Before it was clear that it only works for unarmed strikes was announced it was banned. But once that FAQ came out PFS unbanned it.


Any 3/4 BAB with potent self-buffing can make it work, even work well - Warpriest, Inquisitor, or Cleric (ideally Evangelist and/or Heroism Domain), for example. Either Weapon-and-Cestus, Weapon-and-Unarmed, or Weapon-and-Shield are the most manageable methods for casters. With a Dual Talent Human you can manage abilities well enough to make a strength-based TWF character reasonably well, though you probably won't be starting with an 18STR.

Given the right situation, like an Inquisitor with Double Bane and Judgements up or a Guide Ranger with Ranger's Focus on, TWF can actually get really, really lethal; however people will often dismiss it out of hand as simply 'worse' because it typically is, and because people love generalizing. If I was going to make a TWF "ninja" I'd use an Inquisitor or a Dragon Disciple or something instead of the Ninja class.


One of the best options for this would be the dawnflower dervish bard.

Yes, dawnflower dervishes have dervish dance built in...but that is a waste for their power.

The battledance they get gives you double bonuses on inspire courage. That puts in on par with rage at first level, and eventually you get +8 to attack and damage on every hit (add arcane strike on there for +13 damage). So going with something with a ton of hits (archery or TWF) is great for them

The bonuses to damage about cancel out the problems you have with TWF penalties. Yes, this archetype stops you from buffing comrades with your inspire courage...just play it like an inquisitor.

Also, side note- the feats for the basics is not quite as intensive as it is made out to be. You will never benefit from greater TWF (since it is BAB-12, which is a poor choice even for a fighter), and double slice is 'meh'. Rend has some appeal... but really, you can get by with TWF and improved TWF.


lemeres wrote:
One of the best options for this would be the dawnflower dervish bard.

Yep, that would have been example no.4 except I've been told I talk too much as it is. It's pretty unreal with the Aasimar favored class bonus applied to Inspire Courage.

My all-time favorite still has to be Evangelist of Sarenrae or Shizuru though... Divine Favor/Power + Fate's Favored + Inspire Courage + Heroism (pre-cast + done in a single round by 7) means you could swing two scimitars around at -4ab and still come out with a solid attack. Oh, and a Ragathiel Evangelist with 1 level of Barbarian and rage, that's... well nevermind, I'll stop talking now.


The battle poi might be a special corner case too, since with the exotic weapon feat you get a semi-two weapon fighting ability too. If you are going any deeper than that though it becomes less pretty.

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