What Class is the Stongest De-buffer?


Advice


I have a character concept in mind that starts with two levels of Fighter (Lore Warden) to set up a reach build focused on tripping.

After that the plan is to go into another class that can help with battlefield control and stacking debuffs on bad guys.

Right now, I'm trying to decide between Alchemist (lots of tasty discoveries to put on the bombs I chuck the round before I wade into melee) and Witch (Hexes in addition to the normal arcane debuffs).

I know full-progression casters are the gods of everything, but I'd like to think outside of that box on this one. That being said if you can recommend a particular archetype, or bloodline, or whatever that would fit nicely with a tripping build thematically, I'm willing to listen.

I know the Hexcrafter Magus is good at this as well, but I already have a Magus going in another game and I'd like to try something different.

Right now I'm leaning Alchemist because of the better BAB-progression and - honestly - better mastery of the class. But I'm definitely not 100% sold.

What does everyone think?


Kensai wouldn't be bad - get your Tripping on with a Whip and debuffing touch spells, stack on Enforcer for intimidate. You can work into Whirlwind attack, have Long Arm up, Lunge, and Enlarge, and trip/debuff every enemy on the mat every round.


Two things:

1. If you're going 2 levels of Lore Warden, it is difficult not to justify going 3. At 3rd you get a flat +2 bonus to CMD/CMB which is really hard to beat because pulling off maneuvers is pretty difficult.

2. Pulling off maneuvers is difficult, and becomes even more so at higher level. Going for even a 3/4 BAB class is... not encouraged. The Witch is right out.

Potentially plausible as an Alchemist. Bombs can do some pretty neat things. Smoke Bomb (and friends: Stink Bomb, etc) can be pretty wonderful battlefield control and debuffs by themselves. Mutagen and extracts will help make up for the diminished BAB if you actually intend on tripping things.

Witch is... no. If you multiclass Witch you can say goodbye to tripping anything. By level 12 the median CMD is 35. Thirty-freaking-five. Plus additional modifiers for more than 2 legs, etc. Median AC at that level, for comparison, is 21. You're not going to make up that deficit with levels in a 1/2 BAB class.

Frankly, barring a couple very narrow exceptions (Battle Oracle or Magus shenanigans for instance), 3/4 BAB classes are terrible at maneuvers. I don't know why Paizo has such a fascination for giving 3/4 BAB classes maneuver focused perks because it's just not going to happen with any regularity.


Unless I'm missing something, the martial master archetype can be paired with lore warden.

That would be a very strong maneuver build since you could adjust for what maneuver you need on the fly. Instead of focusing on tripping, you could trip those things that are medium and bi-pedal, but against other things you can grab dirty trick or if you think the CMB is just too high, against a big boss for example, just grab some feats to up your damage or let you effectively use a ranged weapon.


ChainsawSam wrote:

Two things:

1. If you're going 2 levels of Lore Warden, it is difficult not to justify going 3. At 3rd you get a flat +2 bonus to CMD/CMB which is really hard to beat because pulling off maneuvers is pretty difficult.

2. Pulling off maneuvers is difficult, and becomes even more so at higher level. Going for even a 3/4 BAB class is... not encouraged. The Witch is right out.

Potentially plausible as an Alchemist. Bombs can do some pretty neat things. Smoke Bomb (and friends: Stink Bomb, etc) can be pretty wonderful battlefield control and debuffs by themselves. Mutagen and extracts will help make up for the diminished BAB if you actually intend on tripping things.

Witch is... no. If you multiclass Witch you can say goodbye to tripping anything. By level 12 the median CMD is 35. Thirty-freaking-five. Plus additional modifiers for more than 2 legs, etc. You're not going to make up that deficit with levels in a 1/2 BAB class.

Frankly, barring a couple very narrow exceptions (Battle Oracle or Magus shenanigans for instance), 3/4 BAB classes are terrible at maneuvers. I don't know why Paizo has such a fascination for giving 3/4 BAB classes maneuver focused perks because it's just not going to happen with any regularity.

Thank you for the advice!

The advice regarding the 3rd level of Lore Warden is much appreciated. I hadn't looked past the 2nd level and bonus Combat Expertise.

The 1/2 BAB progression on the Witch was scary, but I have no experience with a maneuver-based character. I didn't realize how bad that lost BAB hurt!

So, Witch is no longer under consideration and I'm not interested in a Magus for the reason I outlined above. What types of feats and discoveries would you recommend?

Right now I'm thinking: smoke bomb -> stink bomb ->, tanglefoot bomb/confusion bomb & probably fast bombs when it comes online at Alc/8.

Will definitely be taking advantage of Mutagens + Extracts to try to make up for the lost BAB from going alchemist.

Are there any other classes that make sense for a debuff-focused build that don't sacrifice a ton of BAB?

Scarab Sages

Harrow Warden monk isn't bad. You can misfortune & bestow curse as a stunning fist replacement, and you are psuedo-full bab thanks to flurry. Best part is Idiot Strike has a will wave, to it works against a lot of thing in melee that stunning fist's fort save would fail on.

Another option would be Shaman. Same access to hexes as a witch with a 3/4 bab.


Imbicatus wrote:
Harrow Warden monk isn't bad. You can misfortune & bestow curse as a stunning fist replacement, and you are psuedo-full bab thanks to flurry. Best part is Idiot Strike has a will wave, to it works against a lot of thing in melee that stunning fist's fort save would fail on.

Wow, good find. I'd never heard of this. If I wasn't going for reach, this would be awesome. But I don't think the Idiot Strike's 'unarmed strike' req would work for this build.

Imbicatus wrote:
Another option would be Shaman. Same access to hexes as a witch with a 3/4 bab.

Another class I have no familiarity with and exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for. Thank you.

I will dig into the Shaman to see what's there.

Any preliminary recommendations for the Shaman? Archetypes, feats, or must-have spells I should consider?


Clerics have lots of domain powers that are debuffs. The Bloodrager has an archetype that when you trip them you can cast a spell as a swift.

As for the shaman, I feel the normal shaman is best. here is a guide someone made for the shaman. Don't take everything as truth but it's a good starting place.


Dud Muffin wrote:
ChainsawSam wrote:

Two things:

1. If you're going 2 levels of Lore Warden, it is difficult not to justify going 3. At 3rd you get a flat +2 bonus to CMD/CMB which is really hard to beat because pulling off maneuvers is pretty difficult.

2. Pulling off maneuvers is difficult, and becomes even more so at higher level. Going for even a 3/4 BAB class is... not encouraged. The Witch is right out.

Potentially plausible as an Alchemist. Bombs can do some pretty neat things. Smoke Bomb (and friends: Stink Bomb, etc) can be pretty wonderful battlefield control and debuffs by themselves. Mutagen and extracts will help make up for the diminished BAB if you actually intend on tripping things.

Witch is... no. If you multiclass Witch you can say goodbye to tripping anything. By level 12 the median CMD is 35. Thirty-freaking-five. Plus additional modifiers for more than 2 legs, etc. You're not going to make up that deficit with levels in a 1/2 BAB class.

Frankly, barring a couple very narrow exceptions (Battle Oracle or Magus shenanigans for instance), 3/4 BAB classes are terrible at maneuvers. I don't know why Paizo has such a fascination for giving 3/4 BAB classes maneuver focused perks because it's just not going to happen with any regularity.

Thank you for the advice!

The advice regarding the 3rd level of Lore Warden is much appreciated. I hadn't looked past the 2nd level and bonus Combat Expertise.

The 1/2 BAB progression on the Witch was scary, but I have no experience with a maneuver-based character. I didn't realize how bad that lost BAB hurt!

So, Witch is no longer under consideration and I'm not interested in a Magus for the reason I outlined above. What types of feats and discoveries would you recommend?

Right now I'm thinking: smoke bomb -> stink bomb ->, tanglefoot bomb/confusion bomb & probably fast bombs when it comes online at Alc/8.

Will definitely be taking advantage of Mutagens + Extracts to try to make up for the lost BAB from...

So, you might be headed down a slippery slope with the bombs. They're certainly great and I'm a pretty big advocate of them even on big burly STR based mutagen builds (the utility bombs anyway).

Once you get fast bombs however, you're going to head pretty quickly into the territory of "Tripping? When am I going to be tripping?" Then the bombs themselves become a pretty hefty focus of the build and, frankly, a more optimized style of doing just about anything.

And that's fine, but we're back at "why bother with Lore Warden and Trip?"

You could potentially use a reach weapon and opportunity attacks to get your tripping done, but some DMs might hassle you over making and throwing bombs and wielding around a twohanded weapon for opportunity attacks all willy-nilly. This build would also be pretty MAD as it would require good STR, DEX, and INT with some pretty hefty CON support as well. Its also adding, at least, Combat Reflexes into the mix. If you feel you can win the "How the hell are you making and throwing bombs while juggling a twohanded polearm and making perfect use of your oppotunity attacks at range" argument with your DM then its a valid option.

What I'm really getting at here is just to caution you about being sure of what you want to do and ensuring you have a picture of how the build will function.

That's really the most important part of character building. We create these characters in our heads and have expectations of what they should be capable of, and the difference between a satisfying roleplaying experience and disappointment is the ability to build a character that can, mechanically, perform to the expectations that the hero we envision conjures in our minds.

Mechanically, straight Alchemist is powerful either way you slice it and has a lot to offer. Bombs can be wonderful control and debuffs if used right (even on a mutation focused bruiser).

Mechanically, straight Lore Warden with maneuvers can be powerful (though, in this case, I'd likely recommend stacking on the Martial Master archetype as well) and can also offer a fair bit to the party (though, typically, far less utility than the Alchemist).

Mechanically, stacking the two will be difficult, but not impossible. You've got to be pretty deliberate about what you're trying to accomplish with it and careful about how you go about trying to strike a balance between the two.

In order to help you more, I really need a clearer picture of exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Exactly what do you picture the character doing and how do you see it focused?


ChainsawSam wrote:
In order to help you more, I really need a clearer picture of exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Exactly what do you picture the character doing and how do you see it focused?

First of all, you make several excellent points. This build is certainly not an exercise in optimization, but I would like it to be functional.

Essentially, I picture this character being a blend of debuffing magic/bombs and reach attacking with a glaive or bardiche.

If I go alchemist, it should play out something like:

  • Step 1: imbibe mutagen (and if there's time, requisite extracts) before combat.
  • Step 2:After initiative is determined, chuck AOE bombs (stink, tanglefoot, confusing, etc) into likely-seeming mobs of bad guys.
  • Step 3: wade into just-outside-of-melee range with reach weapon and go to town with full attacks and AoO's when possible.

If it's a shaman or another, true 'casting' class:

  • Step 1: pre-combat buffs when possible
  • Step 2:Spend my turns getting into advantageous positions and then casting debuffs on the biggest threats.
  • Step 3: Take advantage of advantageous positioning to make as many AoO's as possible.

The 'chassis' of the build will be:

Power Attack > Pushing Assault > Combat Expertise > Improved Trip. I should have all of that by level two, and then be capable at tripping from reach and focus on my other abilities. If I went Human, I could fit in another combat feat before level 3 as well.

At least that's my notion so far.


A barbarian with the rage power Savage Dirty Trick is intriguing - or the Slayer archetype Bounty Hunter gets some really strong abilities to deliver potentially multiple dirty tricks in a turn.

Combine any means of delivering multiple dirty tricks in one round with Dirty Trick Master (after level 12 or so) and you can end a combat in a basically a turn (a nauseated opponent who can only take move actions but requires a standard action to remove your effect = an opponent you can either kill or capture nearly at will.

In general at higher levels Dirty Trick or a build that triggers lots of attacks of opportunity opportunities for your allies will probably do better than Trip (which starts to diminish in utility as you start seeing larger, quadruped and flying enemies.

Grappling especially in builds that can pin quickly is another very strong martial debuff

One key to also consider is if you want to look at ways to debuff a single enemy at a time (Dirty Trick, Trip, Grapple etc) or if you want to look at ways to impact multiple enemies at a time.

The Intimidate chain of feats is also worth looking at for a martial debuffer build - you can get to a point where you can intimidate nearly anything reliably often while also attacking (which could be for other debuffs)

Maneuver Master Monk is also worth looking at - can help bolster your saves, gives a bunch of useful feats and abilities and can with the right builds pair really nicely with Lore Wardens (you can have a low Wis and just wear armor if you want).

Also look at a variety of interesting magic items that will help your combat maneuvers in the future - brawling armor for example or the burglar's buckler if you focus on Dirty Tricks are both excellent values for a maneuver focused build.


If you're looking at reach and trip, then Combat Reflexes (and therefore DEX) is a vital part of the equation (Enlarge Person helps too). You can trip with opportunity attacks and it helps mitigate the 5-foot-step-tango that can cause positioning issues. It also helps leverage more opportunity attacks from the badguys getting up from being prone.


There's the wolf style feat tree that lets you use bestow curse on a tripped opponent all day long. Requires unarmed though.

Silver Crusade

You might want to have a look at the Battle Oracle. With the Maneuver Mastery relevation you get full BAB for CMB.


PCScipio wrote:
You might want to have a look at the Battle Oracle. With the Maneuver Mastery relevation you get full BAB for CMB.

Battle Oracle following the general Reach Cleric guide is a remarkable combatant. Very strong buffs, some interesting debuff options, summoning, etc. Extremely potent teammate.

Frankly, you could probably follow the same general guidelines for a reach Alchemist and also have good results. Wont have full BAB or nearly as plump of a spell list, but Mutagen and bombs can make up the deficit.


Human with Racial Heritage (Halfling) to get into the Underfoot Adept Monk archetype. It's the only trip build that matters.


For tripping its a close battle between a sohei, lore warden, and battle oracle. I think the oracle wins over the long haul because of the elven,aasimar, half elf, favored class bonuses. With those bonuses you add 50% to an effective full BAB on top of getting improved and greater trip for free. Plus that oracle has full splcasting.


The Oracle wins due to all the things it has that aren't tripping, but the Underfoot Adept is the only thing that can trip a Colossal creature.


Dud Muffin wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Another option would be Shaman. Same access to hexes as a witch with a 3/4 bab.

Another class I have no familiarity with and exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for. Thank you.

I will dig into the Shaman to see what's there.

Any preliminary recommendations for the Shaman? Archetypes, feats, or must-have spells I should consider?

You should definitely check out the Battle Spirit. Among other things you get a lesser version of Inspire Courage to buff your party and the ability to temporarily add the Bane property to your weapon. You also get Enlarge Person and Righteous Might as Spirit Magic Spells.

The Battle Master Hex gives you an extra AoO that stacks with Combat Reflexes! Later it gives you Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus without needing to meet prerequisites.

You get access to lots of good debuffing hexes and other abilities through your Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex abilities. You get a lot of good, general combat-helpful spells like Protection vs. Evil, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and Barkskin. The ability to pick different spells, Spirit Abilities, and Hexes each day really make the Shaman a versatile class.

All of this lets you make a really good "Reach Cleric" build. Buy a longspear. During your turn, you use hexes and spells to buff your allies and debuff your enemies. When they close with you, use AoO's to mess up their lives even more.

Edit: Humans, Half-elves, and Half-orcs can use their FCB to add cleric spells to their spell lists which opens up a lot of options.


Arachnofiend wrote:
The Oracle wins due to all the things it has that aren't tripping, but the Underfoot Adept is the only thing that can trip a Colossal creature.

I'd go with this. I can't find anything better and I've searched.


If you have the Charisma to qualify for Eldritch Heritage, maybe you'd want to take a look at some of the sorcerer bloodlines? You could stay a single-classed fighter, so you won't miss a couple of feats in order to get a few spell-like abilities. Some of those SLA's are straight debuffs (like making targets shaken as a touch attack), but even just having different options for dealing damage or getting to the bad guys can really make a difference for a pure melee class.

Sovereign Court

Best at debuffing?

Wizard void school...seriously that school power is downright ridiculous. I Suppose Arcanist School Savant archetype can enjoy this too.

At level 10 (-5 to your saves and AC...now with that massive penalties to your save...how would you like to save vs Baleful Polymorph?), No saves on that school power ability, because...why not, casters always get the cool things. Suppose with such heavy penalties, you could even make Phantasmal Killer actually works.


I was away over the weekend, so I didn't have a chance to check the thread. Lots of really good stuff from everyone!

A Lot of You Guys wrote:
Go oracle. It's the best.

I will definitely consider this, though it's not really the flavor I'm going for. The Shaman was just funky enough for me to consider, but I don't really enjoy playing divine casters. However, I do realize that the Oracle is pretty awesome at a lot of things, including maneuvers now.

Gisher wrote:
You should definitely check out the Battle Spirit. Among other things you get a lesser version of Inspire Courage to buff your party and the ability to temporarily add the Bane property to your weapon. You also get Enlarge Person and Righteous Might as Spirit Magic Spells.

I dug into the Shaman in my copy of the ACG this weekend and saw some good stuff. The Battle Spirit and Lore Spirit seemed like the best choices to me (though several others were very cool flavor-wise as well). However, after looking at how this build would come together, it became apparent very quickly that a maneuver-focused Shaman would be ridiculously MAD.

You can't really afford a single dump stat! You need STR for attack efficacy, DEX & INT for feat entry, WIS is your casting stat, CHA governs a lot of useful class abilities and it's never wise to dump CON.

I don't think I could make this work.

Rycaut wrote:

A barbarian with the rage power Savage Dirty Trick is intriguing - or the Slayer archetype Bounty Hunter gets some really strong abilities to deliver potentially multiple dirty tricks in a turn.

Combine any means of delivering multiple dirty tricks in one round with Dirty Trick Master (after level 12 or so) and you can end a combat in a basically a turn (a nauseated opponent who can only take move actions but requires a standard action to remove your effect = an opponent you can either kill or capture nearly at will.

In general at higher levels Dirty Trick or a build that triggers lots of attacks of opportunity opportunities for your allies will probably do better than Trip (which starts to diminish in utility as you start seeing larger, quadruped and flying enemies.

Grappling especially in builds that can pin quickly is another very strong martial debuff.

Lots of awesome suggestions here. I've never considered the dirty trick route. That's interesting.

After thinking about it a bit more, I like the idea of ditching the tripping idea and going for a grappler instead. Grappling seems like it might be more useful in general.

Some things that can't be tripped can be grappled, while the inverse is not true. I.e. you can grapple a flying creature, but cannot trip it. On the other hand, you can't grapple a ghost...but you can't trip it either. I understand this is not an inclusive list of examples and exceptions may exist, but...

Grappled is also a stronger martial debuff than tripped, at least as far as I can see.

That being said, I'm now considering an Alchemist focused on grappling.
The only obvious inclusion is Feral Mutagen for the claw, claw, bite attack routine and use during a grapple. I think if I go straight Alchemist I'd end up taking levels in Master Chymist because I always thought it was a cool PrC.

Is this a more or less viable concept? What feats are "musts" for a grappler? I am assuming this build would be pretty feat-starved, so I'll probably have to prioritize or consider a 1-2 level dip into monk or maybe brawler.

Slight adjustment from the original concept, but the maneuver-focused character that intends to layer on debuffs remains the same. Let me know what you think and thanks for all of your suggestions thus far!


Seems like "Wings" would be an awesome discovery for this build, so I could ground any pesky flying casters. There's something awesome about the idea of a soaring tackle. Would any other discoveries fit well into this build?


For grappling I would actually focus on a full BAB class. Especially one that grants some specific grappling related abilities. Many are really good - Tetori for example gets many of the key feats as bonus fears and eventually is uniquely able to grapple even a foe with freedom of movement (which otherwise is the bane of grapple builds). Tetori isn't a full BAB class but for grapples it is effectively one.

The strangler brawler archetype is also interesting and martial flexibility is pretty potent.


Rycaut wrote:

For grappling I would actually focus on a full BAB class. Especially one that grants some specific grappling related abilities. Many are really good - Tetori for example gets many of the key feats as bonus fears and eventually is uniquely able to grapple even a foe with freedom of movement (which otherwise is the bane of grapple builds). Tetori isn't a full BAB class but for grapples it is effectively one.

The strangler brawler archetype is also interesting and martial flexibility is pretty potent.

I realize I could definitely get the most mileage out of my grappling from a full BAB martial class, but I really want to play a gish-type.

I love alchemist for the flavor plus Master Chymist fits the theme I'm going for and seems like it would be a lot of fun to RP...but if this is so sub-optimal as to be un-fun to play...then I would consider other options.

Scarab Sages

If you want to play a gish grappler, go with Druid. Wildshape into something big with constrict, and things are gonna have a bad time.

Alternate option: Blood Conduit Bloodrager. Full BAB, and you can swft-action cast any touch spell after a successful manuever without needing to roll another hit roll.


Imbicatus wrote:
Alternate option: Blood Conduit Bloodrager. Full BAB, and you can swft-action cast any touch spell after a successful manuever without needing to roll another hit roll.

I was just looking at this. If everyone thinks Alchemist -> Master Chymist is a poor choice (and so far I've only been offered other options, not told this idea is bad) this is likely the route I'd go.

I like the idea of using the grapple as the free touch to deliver a debuff.


Just check the bloodrager spell list carefully - you don't get spells until the mid levels and then only a fairly limited spell list. But yes it is a pretty nifty ability.

Summoner might be another possible option - your eidolon and you could tag team, it is a 3/4 BAB class and has some unique spells and abilities (including a few ways to get evolutions on yourself - reach for example...)

Liberty's Edge

Imbicatus wrote:
If you want to play a gish grappler, go with Druid. Wildshape into something big with constrict, and things are gonna have a bad time.

Seconded. There really should have been a stipulation that you can only apply constrict damage once per round. The combination of numerous natural attacks with grab/constrict allows for some ridiculous amounts of damage to be inflicted in a single turn. It's probably easiest to perform as a druid, though I have seen a Tiefling Monk/White-Haired Witch/who knows what perform the job with amazing efficiency. You don't get a lot of debuffing in, but if nothing survives a round of contact with you, what's the point of debuffing?


While you didn't specify if this was for a home game or PFS, let me suggest Cryptic (Dreamscarred Press, so not PFS eligible but...) as a fair option.

It's not the spike damage of say a Magus or a Barbarian, but it's fairly reliable damage with some fairly effective debuffs. And it's not all the class can do, it's just one series of options.

It is a 3/4, 30' ranged class, with some buffs, and the equivalent of an always on Sneak Attack as a Standard action, (only 1/round, ever, but, it's a ranged touch.)

It also gets insights (Like Rogue Talents), that slowly add debuffs. This does mean that you can't get everything online early, and it's those that grant the debuffs.

Base debuffs insights.
Entangled for int mod rounds (Damage is reduced to min) (L4)
Bleed (1/die) (L6)
-2 to Att, Dam, Skills, Saves (L8)
1/2 healing for int mod rds (L2)
Splash (min damage) (L6)
Blind - 15' radius for 1 rd (F Save) (L8)

Lost Mind Archetype Insights (NOT on the SRD, requires a hard copy of Ultimate Psionics or Psionics Augmented)
Shaken for int mod rounds (W save neg) (L2)
Confused for int mod rds (W save neg) (L8)
Confused or Shaken for 1 rd (Save for shaken) (L2)
Paralyzed for int mod rds (F Save) (L12)

The above options stack, and can be all used in one round. Note, some abilities are 1/day/target.

Base damage is 1d6 + int mod, and the first d6 can crit, the additional d6's can not (added 1/d6 per odd level)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/cryptic for reference.

Of course, this is all off the table for PFS, or core games.

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