p-sto |
While it's not explicitly allowed by the outline of the spell, I'd be willing to let a player spend a 25,000 GP diamond simply so they could cast the spell again for another 25,000 GP for something they actually want.
If they're receiving the wish from something like a genie I'd probably do something like make the genie explode from the paradox.
Brain in a Jar |
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)"
Here are a few options i might use if i was the DM.
1. The person using the Wish spell gets a use of Limited Wish.
(This has the Wish function but only partial.)
2. The person using the Wish spell is transported to the City of Brass. Home of the Efreet.
(This is dangerous and fills the undesirable fulfillment. More potential wishes in respect to a city filled with Efreet.)
3. The person gets another Wish spell that in turn grants another, an another, an another...etc. Until the person attempts to stop asking for more wishes.
(Undesirable. Think something akin to a time-loop. The person gets more wishes but the wishes can only be used to get another wish, nothing else.)
Most importantly i feel is that if the Wish is used beyond the scope having a lesser effect or undesirable effect should be kept within the bounds of fun and try to stay close to the desired wish in a wish-master kind of way.
Keeping it fun should be just as important as twisting the effect. At least in my opinion.
Claxon |
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
• Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
• Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
• Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
• Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
• Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
• Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
• Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
• Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
• Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)
The player gets more wishes. Unfortunately they're taken from the Jinn Kings across the planes. And each king knows exactly who the wishes went to. And as genies normally are, are quite spiteful and evil. With access to more wishes to make your life as miserable as possible.
Also, the extra wishes are purposefully perverted to literally fulfill while also being completely undesirable. Such as if a character wishes for vast wealth, he receives it. But it's from her Infernal Magistrix Queen Abigail II of Cheliax. And now she wants you dead and her gold returned.
p-sto |
Keeping it fun should be just as important as twisting the effect. At least in my opinion.
Not sure if I agree with that completely. To me this is a rare case of player conduct worthy of being punished in a manner that's painful to the player character. The City of Brass does sound like an interesting answer to the wish though...
Sandslice |
Brain in a Jar wrote:Not sure if I agree with that completely. To me this is a rare case of player conduct worthy of being punished in a manner that's painful to the player character. The City of Brass does sound like an interesting answer to the wish though...
Keeping it fun should be just as important as twisting the effect. At least in my opinion.
In other words, "You get more wishes. They're currently in the possession of a number of Efreet Maliks holding council with the Grand Sultan. In the City of Brass. On the Elemental Plane of Fire. And you are there now. The Sultan's crown prince looks you up and down curiously... what do you do?"
Brain in a Jar |
Brain in a Jar wrote:Not sure if I agree with that completely. To me this is a rare case of player conduct worthy of being punished in a manner that's painful to the player character. The City of Brass does sound like an interesting answer to the wish though...
Keeping it fun should be just as important as twisting the effect. At least in my opinion.
I just meant keeping it interesting and fun while at the same time placing the person in a dangerous position.
Wishing beyond the scope of the spell is dangerous and shouldn't be used without the expectation of danger.
But you can place player's in danger without removing fun. This is also dependent on the wish.
At least for myself i find placing them in a predicament (like an angry Efreet Malik) more fun to all involved than just saying they die or something to that effect.
At least thats what i like to do.
DM_Blake |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some of these ideas feel aggressively punitive.
That's always been my problem with wishes, going back to first edition. No problem with actually having a wish, but the problem is with GMs who feel obligated to screw the player making the wish. All too often, otherwise good GMs who make great campaigns and fun gaming sessions suddenly turn into jerks the moment a player gets a wish. All too often the player reaction, including my reaction as a player but also extending to just about all players I know, is "Aww, crap, I got a wish? Damn, now I'm screwed..."
That's just messed up.
My take is that a wish should be an amazing beneficial treasure. People should be overjoyed to get a wish. Ecstatic.
But too many GMs seem obligated to ruin this wonderful prize.
I don't know why.
Yeah, yeah, literature is full of examples of wishes gone wrong. Cautionary tales to be careful what you wish for. But usually that's only punishment for greedy people wishing for too much. Normally, a decent wish should get a decent result.
So when I am GMing and a player gets a wish, I try to fulfill it in the most beneficial way possible to make it fun and enjoyable for the player. Within the limits of the spell.
As for the OP's question, this is both outside the power of the spell to grant and is clearly within the realm of those cautionary tales, so all bets are off. But that doesn't mean trying to find the most punitive outcome imaginable. Transporting the wisher to the City of Brass to be the unwitting plaything of the king of genies does not in any way fulfill the wish - someone wishing to have more wishes wants to actually have them; standing in front of the king of genies means that the wisher doesn't have them, the king of genies does.
Wish can duplicate ONE spell of a LOWER level. It cannot even duplicate one single Wish spell because that is beyond the power of the wish.
So it just fails. It doesn't alter the universe, transport the wisher to alternate planes, create a dangerous situation to punish the greedy player, grant something ELSE that he didn't wish for at all, or any other nonsense. If he's lucky, he still has the wish and can use it for something more reasonable. If not, he expended his wish and gets nothing, or maybe just one Limited Wish.
Mechagamera |
Having the spell just fail seems worse then getting sucked into a hellish dimension. At least the latter is interesting, the spell failing is boring.
I usually have a mysterious voice cry out "your wishes will come when you need them most." Trust me, players will never let you forget you said it (so the wishes won't go to waste), and when you throw a really hard encounter at the party, you have an excuse for how they survived.
Sandslice |
Some of these ideas feel aggressively punitive.
That's always been my problem with wishes, going back to first edition. No problem with actually having a wish, but the problem is with GMs who feel obligated to screw the player making the wish. All too often, otherwise good GMs who make great campaigns and fun gaming sessions suddenly turn into jerks the moment a player gets a wish. All too often the player reaction, including my reaction as a player but also extending to just about all players I know, is "Aww, crap, I got a wish? Damn, now I'm screwed..."
That's just messed up.
My take is that a wish should be an amazing beneficial treasure. People should be overjoyed to get a wish. Ecstatic.
In first edition, the DM was obligated by RAW to screw the player whenever possible - especially when failing to do so would either allow the player to save money, gain spells as a mage, or get magic items by means other than crafting or epic combat. This was especially true of wishes - DMs were indeed obligated to adjudicate wishes, leading to the stereotypical "lawyer wish" approach to wishing.
It doesn't help that some of the associated literature also treated wishes as though all wish-granting methods were efreet that had just broken up with their SOs - I recall something out of Dragonlance where a mage wished to be stronger, and she wound up looking like a half-ogre. No particular reason - enjoy your boosted strength, but you're now muscle-bound reducing your dexterity and charisma.
But too many GMs seem obligated to ruin this wonderful prize.
I don't know why.
Yeah, yeah, literature is full of examples of wishes gone wrong. Cautionary tales to be careful what you wish for. But usually that's only punishment for greedy people wishing for too much. Normally, a decent wish should get a decent result.
Normally, yes. A wish for more wishes is not decent.
As for the OP's question, this is both outside the power of the spell to grant and is clearly within the realm of those cautionary tales, so all bets are off. But that doesn't mean trying to find the most punitive outcome imaginable. Transporting the wisher to the City of Brass to be the unwitting plaything of the king of genies does not in any way fulfill the wish - someone wishing to have more wishes wants to actually have them; standing in front of the king of genies means that the wisher doesn't have them, the king of genies does.
Yet the player can potentially obtain them. Certainly not by binding the Grand Sultan --- you may as well be trying to bind a Duke of Hell. But efreet are lawful evil. The Sultan would be more than happy to geas you and send you on an adventure (which will obviously further the efreet's cause,) in exchange for the extra wishes you tried to wish for.
Wish can duplicate ONE spell of a LOWER level. It cannot even duplicate one single Wish spell because that is beyond the power of the wish.
Cutely enough, in 3.5, it could indirectly: since wish could create magic items, it could create wish-granting items (such as the ring of three wishes.) If you weren't casting wish, it didn't cost you any experience to do this.
So it just fails. It doesn't alter the universe, transport the wisher to alternate planes, create a dangerous situation to...
Wish can explicitly transport the wisher to alternate planes. An incomplete fulfillment involving dropping the wisher into a room full of wish-granters is quite within what a wish can do.
Brain in a Jar |
Some of these ideas feel aggressively punitive.
That's always been my problem with wishes, going back to first edition. No problem with actually having a wish, but the problem is with GMs who feel obligated to screw the player making the wish. All too often, otherwise good GMs who make great campaigns and fun gaming sessions suddenly turn into jerks the moment a player gets a wish. All too often the player reaction, including my reaction as a player but also extending to just about all players I know, is "Aww, crap, I got a wish? Damn, now I'm screwed..."
That's just messed up.
My take is that a wish should be an amazing beneficial treasure. People should be overjoyed to get a wish. Ecstatic.
But too many GMs seem obligated to ruin this wonderful prize.
I don't know why.
Yeah, yeah, literature is full of examples of wishes gone wrong. Cautionary tales to be careful what you wish for. But usually that's only punishment for greedy people wishing for too much. Normally, a decent wish should get a decent result.
So when I am GMing and a player gets a wish, I try to fulfill it in the most beneficial way possible to make it fun and enjoyable for the player. Within the limits of the spell.
As for the OP's question, this is both outside the power of the spell to grant and is clearly within the realm of those cautionary tales, so all bets are off. But that doesn't mean trying to find the most punitive outcome imaginable. Transporting the wisher to the City of Brass to be the unwitting plaything of the king of genies does not in any way fulfill the wish - someone wishing to have more wishes wants to actually have them; standing in front of the king of genies means that the wisher doesn't have them, the king of genies does.
Wish can duplicate ONE spell of a LOWER level. It cannot even duplicate one single Wish spell because that is beyond the power of the wish.
So it just fails. It doesn't alter the universe, transport the wisher to alternate planes, create a dangerous situation to...
Also keep in mind that this stuff only happens if someone playing looks at Wish and then asks for more than what is offered.
So at that point no one has forced them to be greedy and they have no one to blame but themselves for wishing beyond the parameters of the spell.
DM_Blake |
Wish can explicitly transport the wisher to alternate planes. An incomplete fulfillment involving dropping the wisher into a room full of wish-granters is quite within what a wish can do.
And yet, that is NOT what the guy wished for.
If I wish to have a bowl of ice cream, and then I'm suddenly teleported to some ice cream parlor next to a guy who has a bowl of ice cream, then I didn't get what I wished for. That's HIS ice cream, not mine. I don't HAVE a bowl of ice cream, he does. I could beg, borrow, steal, buy, negotiate, or whatever, in the hopes that he gives me that bowl of ice cream, but no matter what I do, I did not get my wish. I got something else.
If I wish to have more wishes and then I'm suddenly transported to the City of Brass next to a genie sultan, then I didn't get what I wished for. I don't have more wishes; the genie sultan has them. I didn't get what I wished for. I got something else.
Even in the cautionary tales, the wisher gets exactly what he wishes for but learns to regret it. I'm not aware of any good literature where someone wishes for one thing but gets a different thing.
I suggest that, if a wish cannot grant what the wisher wants, then the wish doesn't arbitrarily do something else.
On the other hand, if you are asking an intelligent creature to make a wish on your behalf, and you ask that creature to do something the wish cannot do, then that creature might maliciously do something else.
At least in that case, the wish itself is not deliberately screwing over the wisher; the creature is. And, presumably, that creature might have screwed the wisher even if he had wished for something reasonable.
p-sto |
Some of these ideas feel aggressively punitive...
But too many GMs seem obligated to ruin this wonderful prize.
I don't know why.
It may vary from GM to GM but my reasons for messing with this particular wish is pretty simple. I really love it when players go off script or find creative approaches for most things. I like it to the point that I'm quite willing to ignore RAW to help out a player who is being clever and creative.
But when a player attacks every loop hole in search of an advantage, or is constantly pushing for their way or in the case of this wish puts out an extremely lazy and greedy idea I start to feel like I'm being taken advantage of being lax on the rules. And for something as crass as wishing for more wishes losing resources seems like a generous response and character death could be quite fitting as well.
Brain in a Jar |
Sandslice wrote:Wish can explicitly transport the wisher to alternate planes. An incomplete fulfillment involving dropping the wisher into a room full of wish-granters is quite within what a wish can do.And yet, that is NOT what the guy wished for.
If I wish to have a bowl of ice cream, and then I'm suddenly teleported to some ice cream parlor next to a guy who has a bowl of ice cream, then I didn't get what I wished for. That's HIS ice cream, not mine. I don't HAVE a bowl of ice cream, he does. I could beg, borrow, steal, buy, negotiate, or whatever, in the hopes that he gives me that bowl of ice cream, but no matter what I do, I did not get my wish. I got something else.
If I wish to have more wishes and then I'm suddenly transported to the City of Brass next to a genie sultan, then I didn't get what I wished for. I don't have more wishes; the genie sultan has them. I didn't get what I wished for. I got something else.
What your describing is called partial fulfillment. Which is described in the Wish spell for when you ask for more than it gives.
You used wish to ask for more wishes. A possible partial fulfillment would be to send the wisher to an Efreet Malik or even summon one to him.
It's either wishmaster stuff or partial fulfillment.
Dosgamer |
I had a player use an efreeti's wish (1st ed.) to wish for his hand back that he had lost when he stuck it in a vat of green slime and summarily burned it to the stump to stop the green slime from killing him. The player literally said "I want my hand back." So it appeared in the air in front of him and fell to the ground. The whole table erupted in laughter and it became the best point of the campaign. The player even altered a mini to remove his right hand. So not all jerk wishes are necessarily bad. YMMV.
DM_Blake |
I had a player use an efreeti's wish (1st ed.) to wish for his hand back that he had lost when he stuck it in a vat of green slime and summarily burned it to the stump to stop the green slime from killing him. The player literally said "I want my hand back." So it appeared in the air in front of him and fell to the ground. The whole table erupted in laughter and it became the best point of the campaign. The player even altered a mini to remove his right hand. So not all jerk wishes are necessarily bad. YMMV.
Nothing wrong with that. Far from "aggressively punitive", this was reasonably and justifiably punitive.
In this case, the wisher was at fault. He literally got what he wished for which is the epitome of all the cautionary "be careful what you wish for" tales. The guy who made the wish should have been more clear.
I even approve on the "conservation of energy" idea that (I believe) should apply to every wish: the magic will do the simplest thing that fulfills the wish. It's simpler to return a hand than to return and reattach and make healthy the hand - which is why the wisher should have included reattaching and making healthy into the wording of his wish.
Well done!
What's in the box? |
OH! Wish for more wishes and then TURN into a Genie. Now you have unlimited wishes but can only GRANT them to others! Hey... that is cool! I could see the other PCs being like: SWEET! now my friend can grant a Wish, but being a crappy new morphed Genie means your wishes are VERY sad. Like you can't get the linguistics of the wish right and having someone wish that their enemies be turning into a bull frog creates an Amphibious Minotaur!
Cel'Daren |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here's a couple ideas for what could happen to a person wishing for more wishes:
A. 2d4+1 Efreet are summoned onto the scene as if freed from an Efreeti Bottle, but there is an 80% chance that each of the Efreeti are insane and immediately attack the wisher and only them then disappear after their death, a 10% chance that each of the Efreeti will grant 3 Wishes then disappear, and a 10% chance that each of the Efreeti will serve the wisher for 10 minutes then disappear. At least one of the summoned Efreet must grant wishes, although the impending death of the wisher may hinder their efforts to do so.
B. The wish granting being or object (excluding an Efreeti) asks "Are you sure you wish for this?". The wisher only is granted an impromptu Knowledge (Planes/Arcana/Religion) check with a minimum DC of 20. If they succeed or exceed the check, they learn the following:
DC 20: It's known that very bad things happen to those who try and cheat by wishing for more wishes.
DC 25: Very long ago in a rare show of unity, all wish-granting creatures set up a method to curse those who try to wish for more wishes.
DC 30: In a single stroke of genius, the ancient Djinn coerced a mortal into wishing that those who wish for wishes were instead cursed, and that those who wished for the previous wish or this wish to be undone to instead be cursed. No one has yet devised a method to undo these two wishes.
If the wisher continues with their wish, or an Efreeti is the wish granter, the wisher is instead immediately afflicted with a random curse as Bestow Curse, and their magical gear is either transformed into a cursed version of itself, or is rendered non-magical, as appropriate.
Sandslice |
And yet, that is NOT what the guy wished for.
If I wish to have a bowl of ice cream, and then I'm suddenly teleported to some ice cream parlor next to a guy who has a bowl of ice cream, then I didn't get what I wished for. That's HIS ice cream, not mine. I don't HAVE a bowl of ice cream, he does. I could beg, borrow, steal, buy, negotiate, or whatever, in the hopes that he gives me that bowl of ice cream, but no matter what I do, I did not get my wish. I got something else.
If I wish to have more wishes and then I'm suddenly transported to the City of Brass next to a genie sultan, then I didn't get what I wished for. I don't have more wishes; the genie sultan has them. I didn't get what I wished for. I got something else.
Even in the cautionary tales, the wisher gets exactly what he wishes for but learns to regret it. I'm not aware of any good literature where someone wishes for one thing but gets a different thing.
It used to be recommended that "I wish X were dead" be fulfilled by removing you from existence until the next time X would die - and that wishing for powerful magic items either teleport you to where the item is (guarded by something better avoided,) or bring the item (and its guardian) to you - with the result, if necessary, tailored to the player's attempt to lawyer-wish. This was regardless of the wish's source, be it spell, item, or wish-granter.
Wishing for more wishes is a wish of this sort. A good GM can make an adventure out of it - one that will certainly end in more wishes if you succeed. A mischievous GM could turn you into a genie or give you a genie's wish-granting ability along with an incurable compulsion to grant one wish to each creature who wants one --- and I mean each.
In short, you'd do better for the sake of your character and the story to work with your GM concerning whether the wish is reasonable. I mean, mass plane shift without error is pretty darn strong, so the bar for "greater effects than these" is pretty high already. "More wishes" just happens to be a request that vaults over that bar.
On the other hand, if you are asking an intelligent creature to make a wish on your behalf, and you ask that creature to do something the wish cannot do, then that creature might maliciously do something else.
Then you'd pull out Thoughtful Wish-Maker, roll Sense Motive 25, and politely inform the GM that, by RAW, he's not allowed to have the creature maliciously do anything. (At least if the creature is an Outsider.)
Ultimately, though, the player(s) and GM are working together to have a fun night of storycrafting.
Lord Vukodlak |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Best wish backfire ever.
A rather immature player had his character wish for the ability to become irresistible to women, now this was actually from a wish granting entity...
So when ever the player would say the magic word... I can't recall what it was Shazam maybe? Anyway he'd say the command word and "poof" he'd turn into a baby, or a kitten, maybe a teacup pig.
CloudCobra |
Legacy of Fire: The Final Wish, p.59
Invoke a Wishwarp. :P
Every time he uses another Wish there's a 5% chance that something goes wrong. This temporary wishwarp has a 60-foot radius and persists
for 1d10 rounds.
All Wisdom-based checks made in a wishwarp suffer a –4 penalty as a result.
A wishwarp’s true danger revels itself whenever a spell or spell-like ability is cast within the area. Each time someone casts a spell or uses a spell-like ability, the caster must make a DC 20 caster level check. With a successful check, the spell or spell-like ability manifests normally. In addition, the sensory effects of the spell or spell-like ability are strange and unpredictable.
If the caster level check fails, the spell’s sensory effects are adjusted as detailed above, and there’s a 50% chance that the spell manifests at 1d20 caster levels lower than it should (an adjusted CL of 0 or lower indicates the spell fails entirely) and a 50% chance that the spell is enhanced as if by Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, and Empower Spell metamagic feats.
Whenever a creature’s spells are warped by reality in this manner, the spellcasting creature takes nonlethal damage equal to twice the level of the spell that was cast as the magical energy courses painfully through his body.
Plus whatever other shenanigans you want to do. Since I can be a dick to my players, if he doesn't specifically ask for a Ring of Three Wishes I might just also whip up a Primal Magic event on top of it.
For Primal Magic events see Inner See Magic. :D