Oh, Binding magic mixed with Hellfire Warlock... you could get +6D6 for a one level dip by binding Naberius... Three levels of prestige class as well...
Totally huge damage with little penalty, the CON damage just healed from the binder class... I saw it in play.
Gross.
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It just feels icky... fighters shouldn't be like that...Your opinion has been noted.
Sometimes I like to go around the forums, find all the people still whinging about fighters should not get nice fancy things, and kind of snicker to myself.
Then I go back to putting Bo9S and Path of War together and having them go dance on the corpses of slain beholders and enemy wizards.
It just feels icky... fighters shouldn't be like that...Your opinion has been noted.Sometimes I like to go around the forums, find all the people still whinging about fighters should not get nice fancy things, and kind of snicker to myself.
Then I go back to putting Bo9S and Path of War together and having them go dance on the corpses of slain beholders and enemy wizards.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the disparity in power between fighters and casters, I love playing martial types, but Tome of Battle is just gross in terms of what you can do... I remember seeing it in play, with the right build you basically have unlimited uses of abilities that do damage similar to spells...
So it's basically fighters who can cast spells, without the limitation of number of times a day. Also, creating fire like that isn't a fighter thing... fighters hit stuff with pointy/slashy/blunty things and make people fall over.
Damage is the least powerful option in the game. And fighters can do more damage than spells without Bo9S.
Ummm....
I've seen a fighter do around 250 in a hit with Mythic... he can do that twice a round.
Actually, you are right for the most part, except I think spells can do more damage if tweaked right.
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unlimited times a day...as long as you are in a fight.
It should be noted that if you aren't fighting, technically there's no way to discharge most To9S techniques.
So the guy who can unload the mass AoE fire assault? He can only do it repeatedly if he's actually fighting something, since he can't refresh outside of combat. That door over there is perfectly safe from a second swing.
And that's the only time 'out of combat' is relevant, is when you are NOT fighting.
In practice, he just has all of a limited set of abilities available each fight. The spellcasters have a much, much wider set of available abilities that can potentially run out, but if they are a prepared caster, can literally cover almost any situation...far more flexible.
And in PFS, sorcs follow the same paradigm.
And I will note that in To9S, the Fire and Shadow Disciplines were intended for the use of the most mystic of the 9 Disciplines. The 'fighting' disciplines like Iron Heart and Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw had very, very little of the casty flavor and more of the "I'm an 18th level Melee, watch THIS" flavor.
==Aelryinth
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At level 19, how can you say that a living monster is less threatening than a dead one?
Hitpoints are not what you care about, actions are. It doesn't matter if the target is dead or alive as long as it can't take actions. You can always get it to -1 after you've prevented it from taking actions.
unlimited times a day...as long as you are in a fight.
It should be noted that if you aren't fighting, technically there's no way to discharge most To9S techniques.
So the guy who can unload the mass AoE fire assault? He can only do it repeatedly if he's actually fighting something, since he can't refresh outside of combat. That door over there is perfectly safe from a second swing.
And that's the only time 'out of combat' is relevant, is when you are NOT fighting.
In practice, he just has all of a limited set of abilities available each fight. The spellcasters have a much, much wider set of available abilities that can potentially run out, but if they are a prepared caster, can literally cover almost any situation...far more flexible.
And in PFS, sorcs follow the same paradigm.
And I will note that in To9S, the Fire and Shadow Disciplines were intended for the use of the most mystic of the 9 Disciplines. The 'fighting' disciplines like Iron Heart and Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw had very, very little of the casty flavor and more of the "I'm an 18th level Melee, watch THIS" flavor.
==Aelryinth
Without digging out the book I can't quote specifics, I just remember when we transitioned to Pathfinder I was thinking that I was glad to leave behind books like Tome of Battle... I saw it in play for a long time, and remember hating it. Your opinion differs, and I respect that, but I disliked unlimited use-high damage abilities. It's not a coincidence that Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts and Binders didn't make it into Pathfinder...
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At level 19, how can you say that a living monster is less threatening than a dead one?Hitpoints are not what you care about, actions are. It doesn't matter if the target is dead or alive as long as it can't take actions. You can always get it to -1 after you've prevented it from taking actions.
You also can't hit it with your stick if he is in another realm or flying in the air or... gods forbid he use a second level spell and become invisible.
Martial caster disparity is not about damage, as you said. It's about utility, narrative power, and the fact that damage doesn't mean much when you can one-spell most enemies away, as you mention.
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lol I edited a comment right after writing it, but because someone was quick on the draw, it looks like I posted it after all... look closely at MY posts to see my opinion... people are quoting a quote of a quote of an edited post that isn't actually up there under my name. :D
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Without digging out the book I can't quote specifics, I just remember when we transitioned to Pathfinder I was thinking that I was glad to leave behind books like Tome of Battle... I saw it in play for a long time, and remember hating it. Your opinion differs, and I respect that, but I disliked unlimited use-high damage abilities. It's not a coincidence that Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts and Binders didn't make it into Pathfinder...
You do realize that a fighter with a 1 level dip in barbarian (lion totem) has an unlimited use high damage charge attack, right?
Also, when did Warlocks have high damage again? The highest damage warlock is the Eldritch Claw warlock, which is completely incompatible with the hellfire warlock prestige class. Otherwise, even with the +6d6 from hellfire, Eldritch Blast is still very weak in damage. 9d6 + 2d6 + 6d6 = 17d6 at level 20 (only 60 damage - a maximized fireball does that much) isn't anything to write home about.
Besides, it's not like Pathfinder is short of unlimited high damage potential. A humble summoner eidolon, for example.
*
To actually stay on topic, though, I think my worst offender is someone trying to sneak Precocious Apprentice into pathfinder. Otherwise, I'm third-party friendly with an explicit nod to DSP material, so for the most part, the only reason that anyone would try to sneak something past me would be the broken caster stuff in 3.5e.
Without digging out the book I can't quote specifics, I just remember when we transitioned to Pathfinder I was thinking that I was glad to leave behind books like Tome of Battle... I saw it in play for a long time, and remember hating it. Your opinion differs, and I respect that, but I disliked unlimited use-high damage abilities. It's not a coincidence that Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts and Binders didn't make it into Pathfinder...You do realize that a fighter with a 1 level dip in barbarian (lion totem) has an unlimited use high damage charge attack, right?
Also, when did Warlocks have high damage again? The highest damage warlock is the Eldritch Claw warlock, which is completely incompatible with the hellfire warlock prestige class. Otherwise, even with the +6d6 from hellfire, Eldritch Blast is still very weak in damage. 9d6 + 2d6 + 6d6 = 17d6 at level 20 (only 60 damage - a maximized fireball does that much) isn't anything to write home about.
Besides, it's not like Pathfinder is short of unlimited high damage potential. A humble summoner eidolon, for example.
*
To actually stay on topic, though, I think my worst offender is someone trying to sneak Precocious Apprentice into pathfinder. Otherwise, I'm third-party friendly with an explicit nod to DSP material, so for the most part, the only reason that anyone would try to sneak something past me would be the broken caster stuff in 3.5e.
Barbarian having to move, rolling to hit, and hitting one target is not the same as an area effect, ranged attack doing multiple dice damage...
Warlocks could do decent targeted damage with their blasts, but that's not what I was talking about. Wall of Fire, though not HUGE damage per target, could be used every single round... forever. With a big area of effect. You could fill a combat map with them.
Dragonfire Adepts had similar invocations, I recall something like Freezing Fog that limited your move to 5ft and did 2D6 cold, while blocking line of sight.
Ready an action, and someone is trapped forever basically, taking 2D6 cold every round. Not huge damage, but it can remove multiple combatants from combat, it's a solid mass, they can't target through it... unless you could teleport out, it was basically a guaranteed kill. Again, an ability that had no daily limit on it.
I used this. It worked. I would just target the BBEG (or his non-teleporting minion) and remove him from combat completely.
It's like the swashbuckler exploit with that 14k magic item that allows them to remove someone from combat, only this one does damage as well, in addition to having an area of effect.
Summoner eidolons do good damage, but have to move to the target, and roll to hit...
The abilities I mentioned don't roll to hit, and affect multiple people....
Sorry, in regards to the Eldritch blast, you could chain it or split it or something... so there was that too... so yes, direct damage from a warlock got pretty scary. Comparing it to a maximized fireball is all fine and dandy, do you have a way to cast that every round, all day, every day?
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Comparing it to a maximized fireball is all fine and dandy, do you have a way to cast that every round, all day, every day?
The question you have to ask is 'do you have a way to cast it in every instance you NEED to?'
The answer for spellcasters once they reach that level is 'yes'. Being able to eldritch blast every round is meaningless as you will never NEED to use it every round. There aren't enough enemies to fight in order to make that meaningful.
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It's not a coincidence that Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts and Binders didn't make it into Pathfinder...
Yes, it's not. But not for the reason you think.
They're not in Pathfinder because they aren't Open Content.
Has absolutely nothing to do with their power level - those three classes are actually very low on the power scale, really.
It's not a coincidence that Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts and Binders didn't make it into Pathfinder...Yes, it's not. But not for the reason you think.
They're not in Pathfinder because they aren't Open Content.
Has absolutely nothing to do with their power level - those three classes are actually very low on the power scale, really.
Sigh...
Of course those names can't be used, but the idea behind the classes: unlimited use abilities that deal decent-large amounts of damage. I mean, the DA had a BREATH weapon.
I dunno, I tried to answer the question the OP asked by citing experience from decades of gameplay, but apparently I'm remembering my life wrong...
I had players trying to scam me into allowing those classes, whether you think they are powerful or not. I think they are, because we run games with 6-12 encounters in a day sometimes...
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Of course those names can't be used, but the idea behind the classes: unlimited use abilities that deal decent-large amounts of damage. I mean, the DA had a BREATH weapon.
And Paizo has said that they are not going to repackage 3.5 content when they can write their own. Hence why there are no Witchaloks, Dragonbreath Masters, or Pactsealers in the official rules.
Yeah you would not like my games, I can guarantee it.
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Barbarian having to move, rolling to hit, and hitting one target is not the same as an area effect, ranged attack doing multiple dice damage...
"Multiple dice damage" still has an average damage value. If your chained spell hits four targets and the barbarian deals five times the chained spell's damage with his pouncing charge, the barbarian clearly deals more damage than the chained eldritch blast. And since this is 3.5, barbarians deal a lot of damage with just pounce, power attack, leap attack, and shock trooper - much more than just 60 at level 20, I can assure you.
And really, what kind of campaigns are you running that a normal, non-eldritch glaive warlock is breaking it apart with his damage?
Warlocks could do decent targeted damage with their blasts, but that's not what I was talking about. Wall of Fire, though not HUGE damage per target, could be used every single round... forever. With a big area of effect. You could fill a combat map with them.
Wall of fire is a greater invocation that comes online at level 11 (the level when many of your enemies are flying). It deals 2d6+CL damage, which for that warlock is just 7+11=18 damage, and uses up your standard action. It doesn't matter how many times you can cast it or whether it is 200 feet long or not; it costs a standard action, which in-combat is one standard action you are not using to do MORE damage with your eldritch blast.
It has roleplaying uses, sure, but you're much better off just throwing out a chained eldritch blast. Dunno why you used Wall of Fire as an example instead of chilling tentacles, to be honest - it's not even that good of an invocation.
Dragonfire Adepts had similar invocations, I recall something like Freezing Fog that limited your move to 5ft and did 2D6 cold,...
That invocation is just a solid fog combined with grease, and you can only have one out at the same time. If that invocation was enough to remove the BBEG from play, the wizard could have cast Solid Fog or Black Tentacles and done the same, and wasted maybe one spell from his arsenal.
I don't know why you are so focused on the "cast all day" thing. Wizards and other casters only have limited spells at the beginning levels; at around level 7 or so, they can cast so many spells a day that unless if you are literally throwing more encounters at them than they can manage (at which time they start bypassing your encounters altogether, because wizards can do that), they will never actually run out.
Summoner eidolons do good damage, but have to move to the target, and roll to hit...
Eidolons have pounce with every mode of movement (swim, fly, burrow, etc.) that you can think of. Moving to the target isn't even consequential, and an Eidolon has a very high to-hit bonus considering that all of their natural attacks can be primary.
And Bo9S maneuvers have to roll to hit as well. Eldritch blast have to beat touch AC with penalties for firing into melee (or else burn two feats on Precise Shot). If you actually want to do comparable damage to your melee, Eldritch Claw is single target, melee, and has to hit regular AC (and people take it anyway because it is superior to chained EB in damage). Area of Effect stuff have to contend with Evasion and reflex saves. Then you have SR, which wizards beat easily with a swift action spell (Assay Resistance). Warlocks have to take Vitrolic Blast, which only applies to EB and nothing else.
In fact, the only thing that I know of that get no save or defenses whatsoever...happens to be a first-level wizard spell.
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It's also worth noting that eldritch blast was a spell-like ability, which means that it...
1. Provoked attacks.
2. Could be interrupted (technically).
3. Could be blocked by spell resistance.
4. Does bubkis to golems.
5. Had an effective spell level of 1/2 your warlock level with a minimum of 1 and maximum of 9th. Actually making it harder to cast defensively and concentrate on as you go up in level.
All for an attack that...
1. Does crappy damage to normal enemies.
2. Does even crappier damage to objects (it deals 1/2 damage before hardness).
Also @ alexd1976...
No. Fighter-types from the Tome of Battle do not make giant fire snakes. Swordsages do. Those are the guys (notice I say the guys not one of the guys but THE guys as in only one type of) who are mystical monk-ish type fellows who do supernatural stuff with their martial arts.
The fighter-type guy was the WARBLADE. His combat options had techniques that involved shaking off magic effects by force of will (basically Conan the Barbarian. They could have just glued a picture of Conan shouting "By Crom!" instead of a writeup for a few counters) and hitting stuff with swords. Like, being able to move up to your speed and hit somebody with your main and off hand weapon (holy cow, what sorcery)!
Higher level stuff was basically Wolverine from X-Men minus the fast healing. Even then, Tempest Stormwind strait up laid down the law on the WotC forums when he showed that a Barbarian consistently outdamaged a warblade pretty much whole career.
Yeah man, crazy weaboo fightan magik. Thank you for your sage secrets.
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EDIT: SO VERY NINJA'D! Spoilered some for redundancy
Sigh...
Of course those names can't be used, but the idea behind the classes: unlimited use abilities that deal decent-large amounts of damage. I mean, the DA had a BREATH weapon.
I dunno, I tried to answer the question the OP asked by citing experience from decades of gameplay, but apparently I'm remembering my life wrong...
I had players trying to scam me into allowing those classes, whether you think they are powerful or not. I think they are, because we run games with 6-12 encounters in a day sometimes...
I'm not telling you that you're remembering your life wrong (though you may be - we all get some parts wrong in our memory), but I am telling you that you're experiences are extremely divergent from mathematical and mechanical analysis, most game-worthy applicable theory crafting I've seen, my own experiences, and the experiences of most people I've talked to.
That is where the difference lies - you're not "wrong" when referring to your experience, you're "wrong" where you refer to general principals that you (very justifiably*) base on what is, necessarily*, a limited swath of the experience of gaming over-all*.
That's really where people are disagreeing. Allow me to be frank: I hated Bo9S when it came out for the same reasons you did. But you know what? It was filled with good ideas. Not great ideas, mind you, but good ones.
As far as beating out the power of a warlock, allow me to trump that 3.5 character build, with a 17th level character build of my own.
I call it "Gate"
See, the build is, at 17th level, I take the spell gate. That's it.
"Yes." I reply.
"That's not a build." you say.
"Correct." I reply.
"That also doesn't compare to 17d6 damage! At will!" you might say.
"I can call up to 17 HD of creatures per casting." I reply, "I don't need that damage 'at will'."
"But I can just blast through all of your creatures! At will!" you might think or reply.
"Nah, see, I can immediately start casting that every day to summon efreeti. One if I'm an arcane caster, and two if I'm a cleric. I make a deal: they get two wishes (I make them for it), in exchange for one valuable diamond of my own. Excellent, you get 50k (or more) value for 30 seconds of your time per day, and I get 25k." I explain (my breakdown of the time being 6 seconds for opening the gate and negotiation, 18 for casting the wishes, and 6 more for a fond farewell with a "see you tomorrow!" at the end.) I mean, yeah, the GM can get around that, but it references lesser planar ally, so all I'd really have to do is negotiate:
A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to one day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.
... or, in other words, negotiate for 10,000 gold-value per day (he'd be getting, at minimum, 2.5 times that value with our deal, presuming he got one "wish" per day).
Okay, so, you know, you may - again, justifiably - ask about lower levels!
"Trivial!" I reply, "Especially with Candle of Invocation around!"
"But I ban infinite loops like that!" you'd say, bypassing the myriad of other ways to get similar abilities, traits, and such at significantly lower levels. "Besides, we're talking Pathfinder, now, not 3.5!"
Well, despite the fact that we're talking Pathfinder instead of 3.5, the candle of invocation does still exist, and, based off of the suggestions in the Game Mastery Guide, similar tricks should still work. But even if it doesn't, it's not so much a matter of impossibility, as it is time: gate an efreet, get three wishes that imitate fabricate, save, since the wishes need no material component (being spell-likes), the only limit on fabricate is the size it can cover, hence getting large amounts of <insert valuable substance here>, then selling it for profit, hence getting lots of money...
Buuuuuuu~uut, presuming we're still ignoring even that route, in PF Core, we've got both the planar binding and the planar ally line of spells for getting up to all sorts of chicanery at lower levels. Summon, too. Simulacrum still exists, with all the power that spell implies.
Magic Item Creation exists, or I could simply charge for spellcasting services and make boatloads of cash relatively easily that are not easily dismissed for in-character reasons, especially if the character lives a long time (of course, if you go beyond Core, you have many, many other things that can destroy a well-built warlock, even as you get rules that reign in such blatant cash-grabs, even though skills can still net profits to a dedicated crafter via negotiation).
And that's kind of what people mean. Yes, being able to push out the damage in a battle is very impressive, but when you have enough wealth, you can purchase enough servants that it really doesn't matter any more. I mean, when I can purchase enough simulacra of solars to blot out the sky, I think I'm done for anything below 10th level, and most things up to 20th. (That is a lot of saves a creature has to make in a round to avoid suddenly being greater dispel magic'd and baleful polymorph'd.)
Anything that can be done to break the system is pretty much already there within the system.
I mean, a fighter can (hypothetically) swing a sword without stopping, and thus do a lot of damage, but they can't actually adventure much more than the group has healing, because their hit points slowly evaporate, too.
* I wish to be clear, that this is not meant to be patronizing or insulting, though I can see how it could be read that way: it is true of all of us. Some of our experiences just happen to stick closer to the average trends than others of our experiences.
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I misremember nothing, I'm the same slab of Herculean man flesh I was in high school, I can't help it if the girls back then didn't have the confidence to date me :-)
I have no idea what their problem is now, just jealous probably :-)
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Tactics pretty much sums it up nice and solidly.
Anyway I can't answer the majority of this thread's actual question because the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that I actually ban from 3.5 is divine metamagic cheese, and even in 3.5 I never had players make use of it so I've never had to worry about someone trying to sneak it in.
My games are PF + 3rd party PF + 3.5 stuff with conversions as necessary + ask me about homebrew stuff and if it's from people I know their stuff is good (Multiclass Archetypes jumps immediately to mind) I'll immediately allow it, otherwise I'll look it over and get back to you.
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Also for some reason I read that entire spoiler in Yahtzee's voice. Only there was less swearing and he's not usually that nice at the end.
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We so need to hang out, dude.
I don't know who you're talking about, but I agree (so long as I'm included somewhere in there). :D
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It was an area effect.
Munchkin.
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Only alexd1976 isn't invited. :)
Jokes aside, it is easy to see at-will and think that it's incredibly powerful. But once you get to high levels and with standard WBL, your average caster should be able to handle 6 encounters a day without breaking a sweat or spellbook. Above that, ket's say at 12, I think the amount of trivializing you can do in half the encounters outweighs any amount of at-will damage you can pull-off at the others. Things definitely change as money flow changes.
I've played a Bard in a 3.5 campaign (well, a Sublime Chord, not a straight Bard) and found myself running out of spells insanely quickly. But a lot of that had to do with the lack of wealth given to our characters. We got overpowered magic swords and armor that leveled with us, but no stat boosters or staves or wands or metamagic rods, and no option of selling items to pick up some of the essentials for your average Wizard. So I ran out of non-Inspire juice early in the day, but the amount of game-altering things I could do in the first hour of waking up was always enough to warrant my casting ability. There are definitely ways that make at-will effects stronger, but I don't think any amount will kick full-casters off their pedestal.
Hell, I think the strongest part of Dragonfire Adept was the amount of at-will control it could put out, not damage. There was some at-will Slow effect? Only think I remember out of note for those guys.
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Tactics pretty much sums it up nice and solidly.
Anyway I can't answer the majority of this thread's actual question because the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that I actually ban from 3.5 is divine metamagic cheese, and even in 3.5 I never had players make use of it so I've never had to worry about someone trying to sneak it in.
My games are PF + 3rd party PF + 3.5 stuff with conversions as necessary + ask me about homebrew stuff and if it's from people I know their stuff is good (Multiclass Archetypes jumps immediately to mind) I'll immediately allow it, otherwise I'll look it over and get back to you.
I typically run games the same way.
What's the craziest stuff your players have tried to get you to allow?Monkey Grip. It was a feat in one of the splat books that allowed you to wield weapons larger than normal or use a two-handed weapon one handed. It was always used so someone could cheese a dual-wielding Greatswords or Great Axes. Ugh.
Not really super-crazy, but it comes up EVERY FREAKING GAME FOR EVERY FREAKING CHARACTER...
lol wow I remember this!
Man those were some good times. xD
Oh hey pres man, found any good PF rules to port back?It was an area effect.Munchkin.
I haven't been doing a lot of gaming (actually practically none at all) for the last two years, so haven't really looked at a lot of the newer stuff.
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In fact, the only thing that I know of that get no save or defenses whatsoever...happens to be a first-level wizard spell.
I assume you're meaning Magic Missile, being a force effect that auto-hits. It does have some defenses, however... if you're a caster or have a caster buddy. A Shield spell negates Magic Missile completely, but since it's self-cast only, you either have to be a caster or know a caster who will make you a Brooch of Shielding (which only has limited uses, at that). SR will also block MM, but again you either have to be a caster or know one who can cast Spell Resistance on you or give you SR-equipped magic items, or you have to be a race with innate SR like Drow.
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Magic Middle is so amateur hour, the Bigby spells were where it's at :-)
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I remember once, in response to discussion about how the Stances and Manoeuvres from ToB were wuxia and didn't belong in a game of "realistic" medieval combat, posting links to some medieval fighting manuals with their discussion of stances and manoeuvres. Not that it made any difference, as apparently the medieval manuals in question weren't meant for actual use - 3rd edition D&D being far more accurate about medieval combat than any medieval writer.It just feels icky... fighters shouldn't be like that...Your opinion has been noted.Sometimes I like to go around the forums, find all the people still whinging about fighters should not get nice fancy things, and kind of snicker to myself.
Then I go back to putting Bo9S and Path of War together and having them go dance on the corpses of slain beholders and enemy wizards.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I never had a problem with Tome of Battle - even if you grant that it's unrealistic stuff that turns your game into anime - which is arguable - there is a still a place for that sort of thing for those who want it.
I only have a problem when people want to "fix" classes like the fighter by turning them into that - some players just want a no-frills nonmagical type. Yes, some people are just fine with "I hit things" and don't want a shopping list of options on each turn.
I love Tome of Battle. I have issue with the idea that Tome of Battle replaced the fighter and such.
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In fact, the only thing that I know of that get no save or defenses whatsoever...happens to be a first-level wizard spell.I assume you're meaning Magic Missile, being a force effect that auto-hits. It does have some defenses, however... if you're a caster or have a caster buddy. A Shield spell negates Magic Missile completely, but since it's self-cast only, you either have to be a caster or know a caster who will make you a Brooch of Shielding (which only has limited uses, at that). SR will also block MM, but again you either have to be a caster or know one who can cast Spell Resistance on you or give you SR-equipped magic items, or you have to be a race with innate SR like Drow.
Not Magic Missile. I was referring to Hail of Stones, from Spell Compendium. Untyped damage, no need for line of effect, no attack roll, no save, no SR, no damage reduction whatsoever. Of course, you can't split ray it like with orb of force, but with Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic you can still up it to pretty high damage.
Granted, you can still defend against it with contingency, celerity, by saved game loading via Astral Projection, and the likes, but I think it's close enough =p.
The physical stuff doesn't bother me because it's trivial to imagine and justify cosmetic stuff. Any craftsman can put her own unique touches on a sword or what have you.Can they? How far can they deviate before it's not the same weapon? If I put a cool spike on the end of my sword, like the Uruk-hai in the Lord of the Rings movies, is it no longer a longsword (even if the spike is purely decorative)?
Magic is different, since it has no mundane or contextual reference.Why is magic different, exactly? The fact there is no reference to exactly what magic looks like or how it works only implies that there should be even more variation. You're dealing with an intangible thing. There is no tangible standard that you can compare it to.
It doesn't matter if the fireball is blue, green, orange, black, or white. It doesn't matter if when you cast lightning bolt a phantom image of a blue dragon's head appears around your hand for the short instance of the spell. It doesn't matter if the cone of cold spell looks like a winter's blizzard or sub-zero's ice from Mortal Kombat or a flood of frozen-spirits sweeping over the cone's area. What matters is each spell deals X d6 damage in Y area with a DC Z reflex save for half. >_>
If one wizard's fireball is orange and another's is green, why? Do they know slightly different versions of the same spell? Are the spells exactly the same, but cast slightly different? Is it something inherent to the wizards themselves? What about spontaneous spellcasters?Actually, yes, there is in fact evidence that it is just that. See, knowing a spell doesn't mean you even know or use the same words as the next guy using a spell. Just because your Sorcerer knows Fireball and has vocal and somatic components and such doesn't mean he gets to recognize that somebody else (including another sorcerer) is casting fireball). For that, he must make a successful Spellcraft check.
In the same...
I don't know what to say. Maybe it isn't completely logical or I just can't explain it. But I don't want to have to deal with the headache/annoyance of custom spell effects. Thankfully, none of my players have ever asked.
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Let them have the cheese. Then swarm them with hordes of enemies who have also had the cheesy whatever applied.
The Mighy Composite Longbow of True Strike +5 with abundant ammunition might not seem like such a good idea when 20 orcs all have one, each trained on the party.
You forgot to mention that all the bows the orcs have are super-duper cursed with lots of drawbacks and requirements, including worshiping the orc deity, changing the wielder's name to "NPC orc mook [number]" ranks in <orc-only skill>, must be used to kill a living creature each day, in the hands of an <orc> who <is/isn't> [choose one] a spellcaster {of specified type, if applicable}, while within 100 miles of <particular site>, that it look ridiculous, continually emits an unpleasant sound {omit this for stealthy orcs}, and takes <ability score damage> {with appropriate save}.
If you don't fulfill all those qualifications, you must make a Use Magic Device check for each that you fail to have each time you wish to use the item, and you take -2 levels, and will slowly transform into the "NPC orc mook [number]" anyway (including gender, race/kind, alignment, etc. being changed as necessary to match the orc the bow belonged to). ((With the corollary and understanding that, once that happens, you become an NPC - I mean, it's right there in the name - and your character sheet becomes the GMs.))
All that, so it's actually really cheap for the orcs to mass-produce, so their wealth can be spent on similarly-altered other items! >:D
HAH! Trawling through my own old comments, and suddenly my post here reminded me of this comic.
"I don't claim to have any points in the Appraise skill, but I'd guess the value of this helmet to be somewhere around negative five gold. In fact, we are all poorer now that I've picked it up, and our combined worth will go up again when I put it back down."
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I REALLY like how people consider Abjurant Champion OP. Or, I mean, it might be, but seriously, getting an extra bonus to AC for abjuration spells is hilarious! There were no abjuration spells that granted you an AC bonus. :-)
The feat that lets you colourize spells was Spell Thematics, from Magic of Faerun, probably reprinted a few times since.
Book of Nine Swords was an awesome attemp at doing something new, but it was too much at once, I think. Some of the class mechanics were quite boring, too. It absolutely did not make martials into casters, much less fighters into casters. The book didn't even touch on fighters.
In fact, the only thing that I know of that get no save or defenses whatsoever...happens to be a first-level wizard spell.I assume you're meaning Magic Missile, being a force effect that auto-hits. It does have some defenses, however... if you're a caster or have a caster buddy. A Shield spell negates Magic Missile completely, but since it's self-cast only, you either have to be a caster or know a caster who will make you a Brooch of Shielding (which only has limited uses, at that). SR will also block MM, but again you either have to be a caster or know one who can cast Spell Resistance on you or give you SR-equipped magic items, or you have to be a race with innate SR like Drow.Not Magic Missile. I was referring to Hail of Stones, from Spell Compendium. Untyped damage, no need for line of effect, no attack roll, no save, no SR, no damage reduction whatsoever. Of course, you can't split ray it like with orb of force, but with Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic you can still up it to pretty high damage.
Granted, you can still defend against it with contingency, celerity, by saved game loading via Astral Projection, and the likes, but I think it's close enough =p.
Interesting! I didn't know that spell existed. I haven't done my Spell Compendium project yet.
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I REALLY like how people consider Abjurant Champion OP. Or, I mean, it might be, but seriously, getting an extra bonus to AC for abjuration spells is hilarious! There were no abjuration spells that granted you an AC bonus. :-)
The feat that lets you colourize spells was Spell Thematics, from Magic of Faerun, probably reprinted a few times since.
Book of Nine Swords was an awesome attemp at doing something new, but it was too much at once, I think. Some of the class mechanics were quite boring, too. It absolutely did not make martials into casters, much less fighters into casters. The book didn't even touch on fighters.
Yeah it didn't make sense because Mage Armor is conjuration.
Shield is on the list though.
I REALLY like how people consider Abjurant Champion OP. Or, I mean, it might be, but seriously, getting an extra bonus to AC for abjuration spells is hilarious! There were no abjuration spells that granted you an AC bonus. :-)
The feat that lets you colourize spells was Spell Thematics, from Magic of Faerun, probably reprinted a few times since.
Book of Nine Swords was an awesome attemp at doing something new, but it was too much at once, I think. Some of the class mechanics were quite boring, too. It absolutely did not make martials into casters, much less fighters into casters. The book didn't even touch on fighters.
I'm sure there were mechanical reasons out there somewhere, and I think they revolved around trading your caster level for a full BAB or something (you get that at 5th level), but I never really followed the full line of reasoning (obviously).
The Adjurant Champion wasn't gamebreaking but it was definitely too good for what it did and unfairly stepped on the fighter's toes. It cost 1 feat, and you gave up nothing to have better armor and weapon use than a fighter.
Design Manager
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It's not a coincidence that Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts and Binders didn't make it into Pathfinder...Yes, it's not. But not for the reason you think.
They're not in Pathfinder because they aren't Open Content.
Has absolutely nothing to do with their power level - those three classes are actually very low on the power scale, really.
Not to mention that it's super obvious that the Kineticist in the upcoming Occult Adventures is a reskinned Warlock, using the same basic mechanics, and often even the exact or close to the exact same wording for powers and abilities, with just the name and fluff changed. And much like the Warlock, many people who actually understand the math behind the system regard the class as being very weak (though I understand the final version of the Kineticist will be substantially buffed).
On ToB; I think it was a godsend for evening out the game. It showed that there were designers who recognized that Gimli Fighters just don't fit well in a game with Naruto spellcasters, and they attempted to narrow that gap.
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Not to mention that it's super obvious that the Kineticist in the upcoming Occult Adventures is a reskinned Warlock, using the same basic mechanics, and often even the exact or close to the exact same wording for powers and abilities, with just the name and fluff changed. And much like the Warlock, many people who actually understand the math behind the system regard the class as being very weak (though I understand the final version of the Kineticist will be substantially buffed).It's not a coincidence that Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts and Binders didn't make it into Pathfinder...Yes, it's not. But not for the reason you think.
They're not in Pathfinder because they aren't Open Content.
Has absolutely nothing to do with their power level - those three classes are actually very low on the power scale, really.
The Occultist leans pretty heavily on Binder, too, for that matter.
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Green Star Adept. you eventually turned into a construct, IIRC.
The biggest abuser of caster level nonsense was that one necromancy-centered class that counted ALL your class levels towards the caster level. Worked awesome with Theurge classes.
The other one that stole power from the gods did the same thing.
There was a 3rd level Armor of Light spell that granted you a +6 AC bonus and blinded enemies that was an abjuration. Otherwise, yeah, looking at Shield. Still, +9 AC from a Shield spell was nothing to sneeze at, and there was NO DRAWBACK for taking those 5 AC levels. Full BAB, full casting, + class abilities. That's why it was crazy broken.
Not the AC bonus. That was just icing.
==Aelryinth