How Do I Make This? Sorcerer Advice


Advice

Silver Crusade

For PFS, I want to make a Half-Elf Sage Sorcerer so I can have an Int-based Spontaneous Caster with

this priority list:
1. Battlefield Control
2. Utility
3. Skill Monkey
4. Decent Melee: CMB
5. Decent Melee: Damage
6. Blasting

I would probably use the Human FCB.
My only experience with a caster is a blaster/utility Winter Witch/Winter Witch/ Evangelist.
What would spell and feat progression look like?
Is there another Int-Based Spontaneous Caster?
Would a non-caster be able to do this and cover the entire battlefield?
Is there a way to know the hit points of every enemy, like the Blood Reader Slayer Talent but many?

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There's no way you're going to be good at all the spellcasting stuff AND good at melee. At best, you can be halfway decent as a 2nd- or 3rd-string melee, and still have some buff spells left over, but that's about it. But as far as CMB, you can pick spells that let you do combat maneuvers (such as thunderstomp or chain of perdition), rather than investing in physical stats.

The only other Int-based spontaneous caster is the Arcanist, but that's spontaneous casting of spells you prepare from your spellbook, so it's a bit different.

You can get deathwatch eyes for 2000 gp that give you constant deathwatch, or UMD a staff of souls.

What, exactly, do you hope to accomplish with this character? Right now your list lacks focus; you seem to want to do everything well. Can you narrow it down? What do you envision this character doing?

Silver Crusade

I'm hoping to make a battlefield tactician who leads his teammates and maintains control at all times, literally and metaphorically. In case he is out of spells at the end of combat, he would be competent enough to handle remaining enemies. I like melee over ranged in that case. Long lasting spells could over this though. When not in combat, he can either aid the more skilled teammates or provide that skill. A leader who knows what he is talking about.

I posted to see if there was anything I didn't know or didn't take into consideration, like deathwatch eyes.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Here's what it boils down to:

At low levels, you could contribute to melee with nothing but a longspear and a halfway decent Strength score. But at low levels, the 18 Strength Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin/Whatever doesn't need your help to mop up enemies.

At higher levels, you might be able to contribute in melee, but it would require extensive buffing (mage armor, shield, false life, heroism, etc.), when those turns and spell slots would be better spent buffing your allies instead.

If you run out of spells? That's what wands and scrolls are for.

Now, if you want to do magical support AND melee, you could do something with a 3/4 BAB, 6-level spellcaster. But a Sorcerer just isn't going to cut it.

Silver Crusade

Okay, I can live without melee. I just need to find good spells with lots of tactical use. I've found some that I like but am unsure of. What are good spells?

How are Telekinetic Volley, Blast Barrier, Hostile Jutxaposition, Pellet Blast (if cost wasn't an issue) and Tactical Acumen?


Hmm...

I'd suggest focusing on Buffs, and utility, and for your offense using spells that don't require saves, such as attack for damage spells, magic missiles, wall spells that have uses apart from save effects, and summons. Many much summons.

This is all in an effort to reduce your dependency on Sky high Int, so that you can take a lil bit more Con, Dex, and maybe Str to round out your melee side.

If your going for melee; I'd suggest a focus on Concentration so that you can cast Melee touch spells in combat w/o worrying. Weapon Finesse would come in to eliminate the need for Str. A lot of magic items at low costs also provide stacking bonuses to defensive concentration.

If you want to have a melee WEAPON back up, instead of spells, I'd suggest Str, w/ power attack, and a two handed weapon, but be aware that a melee back up will only last for a few lvls. After that, you may need to rely on magic items, and your lower spells (Shocking grasp) to carry your melee side; but as a Sorceror, you'll have lots.

For the skill side, the Int obviously helps. Going Human adds another vital skill point/ lvl. I'd suggest finding a particular niche, and focusing on that, instead of trying to get all the umbrella. If your a tactical leader, a mix of Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and some knowledge spells could be best, since that's largely what sorceror does. Throw in Appraise, and UMD as desired.

For your melee improvements, it kinda hurts that you can't take Eldritch Scrapper w/ Sage bloodline, but what can ya do? I'd say focus on those buffs that affect multiple people, or else use tactical combat like flanking, and Aid another to keep your bonuses relevent. After all, an intelligent summoned creature can spend one of it's weaker turns helping you. Hell; several can all do it.

Silver Crusade

I was also thinking of a 2 level dip in Empiricist Investigator but decided not to delay my casting. Is Pathfinder Field Agent a good prestige class?

Any good sorcerer archetypes I could take?


You can be a melee combatant as a sorcerer but its... Risky. A sorcerer 6/EL10/DD4 is more than capable of reaching about 45 strength and pummeling but beware of castin that needs metamagic (blasting) because you are not going to have many free. But all this is based on prestige classes.


As RainyDayNinja pointed out, if you want an Int based spontaneous caster, you may want to give the Arcanist a look over. It's not entirely true spontaneous casting, but that might work okay given how many different roles you want to be able to fill at different times. You can grow your spell book and then swap out your spontaneous spell casting as you develop your character. Plus, as an added bonus, you could still pick up the sorcerer feel with the Blood Arcanist archetype. Another approach would let try the melee caster approach using the Blade Adept archetype and pick up the Bloodline Development exploit at level 5 to get your sorcerer feel.

Whatever class you end up with, you'll probably get a lot of mileage from Treatmonk's Guide to Being a God Wizard. You can ignore the wizard specific parts, but the basic gist is that if you want to control the battlefield, you'll need versatile spells and this is even more important for a sorcerer trying to do this since you have fewer spells known. It may be helpful to make a list of possible encounters (e.g. lots of small enemies, one big enemy with a few small enemies, one big enemy) and list which spells you'll plan to use against each. Then try to spread your spells around to have at least some kind of answer for that general scenario.

Some good contenders from various arcane spell lists for some of the early levels:
Level 1:
Grease - Targeted disarm or area denial
Mount - Large creature blocks the way
Enlarge Person - let your friends control the area for you

Level 2:
Glitterdust - AoE Blind and reveal invisible creatures
Create Pit - Good area denial, fun application
Stone Call - Creates difficult terrain and does some damage (no save)
Summon Monster II - These will last 4 rounds when you can cast it, can pull out the appropriate monster for the appropriate situation

Level 3:
Stinking Cloud - Good AoE Control
Haste - Best buff for your team
Slow - Great against multiple opponents
Summon Monster III - These will last 4 rounds when you can cast it, can pull out the appropriate monster for the appropriate situation


zanbato13 wrote:

I was also thinking of a 2 level dip in Empiricist Investigator but decided not to delay my casting. Is Pathfinder Field Agent a good prestige class?

Any good sorcerer archetypes I could take?

If you have a spare feat, you could pick up Amateur Investigator rather than try to multiclass.

Spoiler:

Your knowledge is more than plain smarts—it's inspired.

Prerequisite(s): Int 13, 1 rank in at least one Knowledge skill, no levels in a class that has the inspiration class feature.

Benefit: Like an investigator, you have the ability to augment your Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft skill checks. You gain a pool of inspiration equal to your Intelligence modifier. You can expend one use of inspiration as a free action to add 1d6 to the result of a Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft check, as long as you are trained in that skill (even if you take 10 or 20 on that check). You make this choice after the check is rolled and before the results of the roll are revealed. You can use inspiration only once per skill check. Your pool of inspiration refreshes each day, typically after you get a restful night's sleep.

Special: If you gain levels in a class that has the inspiration class feature, you can immediately trade this feat for the Extra Inspiration feat.

zanbato13 wrote:
Any good sorcerer archetypes I could take?

If you're sticking with Sage sorcerer, you've already got the Wildblooded archetype. There aren't a lot of sorcerer archetypes to begin with so that doesn't leave many more you could actually stack.

Silver Crusade

I was looking at Empiricist Investigator since it changes a handful of skills to Int-based, huge bonus skill points, class skills, and alchemy has a few unique extracts.

My problem with the Arcanist is that they have the fewest number of spells, adding spells to the book costs money (I'm cheap), and exploits run off of Charisma. I might be missing some ability that gives back spells though.

For being a skill monkey, how is the Human Improvisation feat line?

And thank you for the spell list!


Multiclassing as a Sorcerer is generally a bad idea. Losing spell progression when you're already behind the wizard and witch in spell casting is brutal. If you don't want full casting, you really shouldn't pick sorcerer. Since you want to have somewhat of a melee focus, buffs skills and tactical options, you might want to consider a Bard. Not only are they among the best buffers in the game, but they are also arguably the best skill monkeys in the game as well. Every melee type wants a Bard around.

If you still want to go Sorcerer, The best tactical spells involve the Summoning spells. Summon Monster 3-9 are tremendously useful battlefield control spells and can be used to gum up any encounter, not only that, but the higher level ones actually expand your casting abilities as the higher level angels and demons get spells and spell like abilities. At high level, the Abyssal Bloodline is very nice for it's DR/evil added to your summons and the extra demon if you summon in more than one.

Summoning is also useful early game with the Pit spells and things like Grease and Glitterdust. Illusion is amazing at first level with Color Spray and Silent Image, and follows up with solid buffs like Mirror Image and Invisibility and finishes with Shadow Conjuration and Evocation with Shades at the top being one of the most versatile spells in the game that doesn't have a monetary cost to it.

I'd also recommend the Mnemonic Vestment for versatility, but if you don't like scribing spells in a book, you're not going to like having a few scrolls on hand to use in conjunction with this robe, so just go for the Robe of Arcane Heritage.

Silver Crusade

Oterisk wrote:

Multiclassing as a Sorcerer is generally a bad idea. Losing spell progression when you're already behind the wizard and witch in spell casting is brutal. If you don't want full casting, you really shouldn't pick sorcerer. Since you want to have somewhat of a melee focus, buffs skills and tactical options, you might want to consider a Bard. Not only are they among the best buffers in the game, but they are also arguably the best skill monkeys in the game as well. Every melee type wants a Bard around.

If you still want to go Sorcerer, The best tactical spells involve the Summoning spells. Summon Monster 3-9 are tremendously useful battlefield control spells and can be used to gum up any encounter, not only that, but the higher level ones actually expand your casting abilities as the higher level angels and demons get spells and spell like abilities. At high level, the Abyssal Bloodline is very nice for it's DR/evil added to your summons and the extra demon if you summon in more than one.

Summoning is also useful early game with the Pit spells and things like Grease and Glitterdust. Illusion is amazing at first level with Color Spray and Silent Image, and follows up with solid buffs like Mirror Image and Invisibility and finishes with Shadow Conjuration and Evocation with Shades at the top being one of the most versatile spells in the game that doesn't have a monetary cost to it.

I'd also recommend the Mnemonic Vestment for versatility, but if you don't like scribing spells in a book, you're not going to like having a few scrolls on hand to use in conjunction with this robe, so just go for the Robe of Arcane Heritage.

If there was an Int-based Bard, I would be all over that.

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If prepared casting isn't a deal-breaker, you could make a decent melee Witch. Use the Strength patron for divine favor and divine power, combined with the Fate's Favored trait, for good bonuses to attack and damage, plus Arcane Strike and heroism. Play a half-elf for the archetype that lets you get a bonded item instead of familiar, and you could enchant both ends of a quarterstaff (or better double weapon with the alternate racial trait) for cheap.

The big downside is a lack of defensive buffs like barkskin, blur, and mirror image. There is ironskin from the Monster Codex, but it's only minutes/level, so it would require some foreknowledge of the fight to keep from spending too many turns buffing in combat.

Silver Crusade

Between a Sorcerer, Wizard, and Arcanist, I want Int-Based spellcasting and abilities and enough to last me all day. I would rather not make another Witch or Magus though. I'm also abandoning melee prowess entirely.

Sorcerers have the most spells. Wizards have the strongest abilities. Arcanist get more abilities. I'm not sure which one will get me the most.


zanbato13 wrote:
Sorcerers have the most spells. Wizards have the strongest abilities. Arcanist get more abilities. I'm not sure which one will get me the most.

There isn't one right answer. The classes are supposed to be balanced.

The best pieces of advice I could give have already been given, forget about being good in melee and think about arcanist.

Your original post wanted a character that could do a number of things. Sorcerers have a large no of spells/day drawn from a small number of spells. That gives you the fewest options. So it looks like wizard or arcanist. Also, you sound fairly inexperienced, and choosing spells wrongly is not so much a problem it is for a sorcerer.

Silver Crusade

My winter witch was easy since hexes covered everything and last all day. Spells were easy to get, cost nothing, and gave me utility and blasting power. Could a Bonded Witch give me complete battlefield control? I always hear their spell list is horrible but I don't know.

The only spellcasters I have are one-trick ponies (summoning summoner, necromancer enchantment sorcerer, etc.) all at level 1 for now. I've also heard of new classes coming out in June that offer a variety of at-will abilities.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Remember that you can buy pages of spell knowledge with desired spells and actually have more spells available at your fingertips then a wizard.

You can also take a feat to prepare spells.

You can also get a Ring that allows you to add any spell of lower level that you see, is on a scroll, or is in a spellbook to your Spells Known with a spellcraft check.

Spontaneous spellcasters have a LOT of versatility with the right magic items and feats.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

What is the cost of having a spellbook, maintaining it, and adding spells to it if it isn't a class feature or normally used for spells?


zanbato13 wrote:
My winter witch was easy since hexes covered everything and last all day. Spells were easy to get, cost nothing, and gave me utility and blasting power.

Witches definitely have their positives.

But wizards, sorcerers etc have a far greater variety of spells available.

Silver Crusade

The problem being that they don't have reusable effective abilities and burn through spells quickly. Though if I'm wrong, please correct me.


zanbato13 wrote:
The problem being that they don't have reusable effective abilities and burn through spells quickly. Though if I'm wrong, please correct me.

I think quickly is a relative term. You could certainly through spells every round and run out quickly, but I think it's far more effective to cast a few bigger spells that make you teams actions far more powerful. It's a bit more of an ebb and flow than hexes. As others have noted, you probably want to be investing in items that extend your longevity (pearls of power/runestones of power, scrolls, wands) and there are also spells that let you take actions every turn (e.g. controlling a Flaming Sphere or Aqueous Orb with a move action).

Additionally, and I've only been playing PFS for a few months so this could easily change, but the nature of the scenarios seems to work well for casters. You can burn your spells at a rate roughly to match the progress through the evening. If the scenario offers extra rest opportunities, then you can reset.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

zanbato13 wrote:
What is the cost of having a spellbook, maintaining it, and adding spells to it if it isn't a class feature or normally used for spells?

You acquire spells the same as any other caster...buy them for reprinting from vendors, copy them with a spellcraft check, get a Blessed Book to minimize costs, and past in scrolls you find (you only need to read them, not USE them!).

Getting a broad array of spells is dirt cheap once you get your Blessed Book.

Look up the Ring of Spell Knowledge (the level 1 is only 1500 gp) and the Mnemonic Vestment. If you can make a DC 20 Spellcraft check, you're golden.

The feat is Versatile Spontaneity.

If your DM is okay with it, you can also use the Extra Spell Known feat, and simply pick a new spell at the highest level you can take, retraining it as you level up.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

So if I'm a sorcerer and I have a spellbook that is not used for casting my spells except for Versatile Spontaneity, adding spells to it costs money but I can add spells to it every level?

Are there ways to increase daily spell slots and daily spells prepared? I know of pearls of power but what if I needed a different spell.

This character will be Level 2 and I need him ready by tomorrow.


zanbato13 wrote:

So if I'm a sorcerer and I have a spellbook that is not used for casting my spells except for Versatile Spontaneity, adding spells to it costs money but I can add spells to it every level?

Are there ways to increase daily spell slots and daily spells prepared? I know of pearls of power but what if I needed a different spell.

This character will be Level 2 and I need him ready by tomorrow.

Runestone of Power is the spontaneous version of the Pearl of Power (gives you extra spell slots).

Page of Spell Knowledge adds additional spells known for spontaneous casters.

I'm not super familiar with Versatile Spontaneity, but I don't believe you'd get free spells in your spell book when you level up. That benefit is usually written directly into the Spells class feature of prepared casters. The feat includes no such language for you, so any spell you add to the book will cost money. I think you could add to it continuously, however, as long as you made the appropriate Spellcraft checks.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Zanbato, you can add spells to it whenever you like, as long as you pay for them.

For a sorc, you increase casting slots with a Runestone of Power or higher Charisma.

For a wizard, you increase spells prepared with intelligence or a Ring of Wizardry. Sorcs can't use those.

You increase spells Known with the toys I noted above...the Ring and pages of SPell Knowledge.

Versatile Spontaneity is time intensive. Generally you only use it for a couple spells a day that you want to have handy. In general, if it's low level, its better to use the Ring and go diving for the spell when needed, if it's not urgent.

Note that a Mnemonic Vestment also allows you to grab a spell you want.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

I think I'm going to make a Sage Sorcerer with a Bloodline Familiar (Familiar Folio thing), a spellbook that he'll add spells to when he can, and Runestones. I'm comfortable enough knowing I will have more spells per day and Versatile Spontaneity.

I just need to figure out what my spells will be each level and feat progression but I think I can figure it out.

Thank you all very much!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Get your Ring of Spell knowledge and upgrade it :) You'll drive the wizards into fits with your versatility.

One of the best uses of Versatile Spontaneity is to memorize metamagicked spells ahead of time so you don't have to spend a full round doing so in a fight.

Just some thoughts for you.

==Aelryinth

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