I'm considering to change my level 8 Rogue into Slayer


Advice


This is my first character ever, a male rogue turned female that I made a couple of years ago. I wanted to play a skilled combat type but I wasn't experienced with the game and didn't knew better options. Now, in the end my character was really useful as our DM likes to make dungeons full of traps and I managed to land some devastating sneak attacks, but it never was what I wanted him to be. The recently introduced Slayer fits the bill about the more combat oriented guy with skills.

Now, I haven't already talked with the DM but he might be ok with me changing class, especially now that the Fighter left the game.

The stat array is from a 25-point buy with some permanent incease:

STR 10
DEX 20 (18 + 2 from level 4 and 8)
CON 12 (11 + 1 from solving a puzzle)
INT 14 (12 + 2 Human)
WIS 10
CHA 17 (14 + 3 form the same accident that turned me female)

No initial traits, but I'm allowed to take two for a feat. Hero Points rules are in effect.

I was going for a TWF build. My equipement is scarce as our party was constantly getting robbed after being knocked out and I have only a +1 Studded Leather and two +1 Short Swords in addition to a Scabbard of Keen Edges, but the DM said that the next session we may get compensations that will bring us closer to our expected WBL.

Now I'd like to go again the TWF route, maybe now that I am full BAB I may take Piranha Strike for damage. Also given the 17 Cha I was also considering the Eldritch Heritage route, especially the Abyssal for the STR bonus (it would also be justified in character as the cha increase is due to a transmutation fountain dedicated to a CE God).

Any suggestion on how to optimize this setup?

Also, I want to take the Trapfinding talent.


Why not go Swashbuckler? You get several free feats right off the bat, and with 1 or 2 feat investments you also get Dex to damage instead of Str (i think the feat is called Slashing Grace). Would still have a fair number of skill points, too.

If you really want to stick with TWF, I'd say avoid Piranha Strike.... it's locked in at -1hit/+2 damage ratio, with only half the damage bonus (-1hit/+1dmg) for your offhand. That extra penalty adds up fast since you're already at -2 for all attacks from TWF.


Poor Rogues, they're the ultimate Catch-22 of Pathfinder.

---

People go "WAH! ROGUES ARE BAD!" and refuse to play them for basically no reason.

So the Paizo puts out Archetypes that give more popular classes rogue-like qualities in order to fill the gap of the dungeon-crawl-monkey role.

Leading people to go "SEE, THE ROGUE'S BAD BECAUSE OTHER THINGS DO WHAT THEY DO!"

It's the most annoying self-fulfilling prophecy in the game.

Anyway, you can also stay a Rogue for now and wait a few months to see what the Unchained Rogue is like - it SOUNDS, so far, like it's going to be based more on positioning & tactics in combat and hampering the opponent while still being a skill-monkey dungeoneer who sneaks.


I will post more when I get home. You will not need high dex for TWF so unless it is just for flavor. Also do you get new equipment?

edit:Also, what skills are mandatory, which ones are "really like keep, "up for sacrifice" and "just took them because I had the skill points"?


chbgraphicarts wrote:

Poor Rogues, they're the ultimate Catch-22 of Pathfinder.

---

People go "WAH! ROGUES ARE BAD!" and refuse to play them for basically no reason.

So the Paizo puts out Archetypes that give more popular classes rogue-like qualities in order to fill the gap of the dungeon-crawl-monkey role.

Leading people to go "SEE, THE ROGUE'S BAD BECAUSE OTHER THINGS DO WHAT THEY DO!"

It's the most annoying self-fulfilling prophecy in the game.

Anyway, you can also stay a Rogue for now and wait a few months to see what the Unchained Rogue is like - it SOUNDS, so far, like it's going to be based more on positioning & tactics in combat and hampering the opponent while still being a skill-monkey dungeoneer who sneaks.

When did Paizo make any comments about the unchained rogue?

Grand Lodge

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You might want to consider picking up Exotic Weapon Proficiency Sawtooth Sabre if you want to go with Dex-to-Damage and TWF.


I'd recommend piranha strike as it's giving the same bonus as power attack would. Do some math, but I feel that most likely it'll do more damage than not not using it.

at lv 8 you have a 6 bab and a +5 from dex and +1 from weapon. So a +12 to hit. then a -2 for TWF for 10s and 1 at 5

at lv8 a slayer will have 8 bab, the same +5 from dex, +1 weapon, and a +2 from studied target. so that's a +16 to hit -2 for TWF -3 piranha strike. That makes 2 11s with +8 and +5 and 2 6s with the same bonuses to damage.

Running some maths that's an average DPR of 22.77 against AC 18. no piranha strike is DPR 13.86. Against AC 23 it's DPR 12.87 and DPR 8.91. Even AC up to 25 piranha strike is still more DPR.

The Slayer is also freeing up feats as 2WF and I2WF are gained from bonus feats. you also get 2 out of the three of weapon focus, another combat feat, or Trapfinding. that frees up your normal feats for other things.

at lv8 a swashbuckler could have dex to damage and weapon focus and greater weapon focus and Swashbuckler Weapon Training and weapon specialization for 2 12s with +9 damage and +6 and 2 7s with the same bonuses.


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First off I don't think this person was saying their rouge was bad. From what I'm gathering they wanted melee combatant with some skills, not a skills monkey with some combat. It's difficult for the rogue to feel like they are a capable melee fighter when for them to be effective in the slightest they have to have a properly positioned buddy. The slayer is far more capable when it comes to fighting in circumstances that aren't ideally set up for flanking as you have other things going for you other than sneak attack. Plus if the situation arises you also have some sneak attack to benefit from. For me at least it isn't just the fact that the slayer is somewhat more effective, which I think most would agree that he is, but the fact that when you go into combat you can actually feel like you are a skilled, lightly armored fighter like the guys from Lord of the Rings. When is the last time you saw Arogorn or Legolas be like crap where is my flanking partner. The slayer fills this character concept much more effectively, as while he is capable of stealthy tactics and can benefit from them, he can also just kick butt.


Jack of Nothing wrote:
First off I don't think this person was saying their rouge was bad. From what I'm gathering they wanted melee combatant with some skills, not a skills monkey with some combat.

This is what I got out of it also.


wraithstrike wrote:
When did Paizo make any comments about the unchained rogue?

It's always fun to be right


chbgraphicarts wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
When did Paizo make any comments about the unchained rogue?
It's always fun to be right

WOW that's so awesome! I did not know they had done that.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
When did Paizo make any comments about the unchained rogue?
It's always fun to be right

Thanks for the info. The best thing I heard was redoing the talents and the +4 to hit. However the rogue is still not a combatant with skills, which is the flavor the OP wants. However it may stop the anti-rogue comments or at least reduce them.

There are other good things in this video also.


For efficient TWF you basically have two options:

1. High Str, lowish Dex (15-16), use the Slayer's ability to steal from Ranger Combat Styles to grab the TWF feats above TWF itself.

2. Mediocre Str, use one of the options to get Dexterity to damage instead of Str.

Unless you can retool your Strength, I'd recommend #2 here. You have, in turn, two basic options to enable this:

1. Dip one level of Swashbuckler, pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sawtooth Sabres), Weapon Focus (Sawtooth), and Slashing Grace (Sawtooth). You need the Swashbuckler level for this though, so if you can't/don't want to dip, it won't work.

2. Pick up Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Finesse, and Fencing Grace, along with one Effortless Lace to turn a rapier into a Light weapon.

If you have equipment-being-stolen issues I'd go with the first one. It would require talking to your GM about changing out your weapons though.

Out of curiosity, which deity do you worship? The Ranger (and by extension Slayer) has Combat Styles dedicated to each deity, and Achaekek's is particularly awesome for opening up the Two-Weapon Feint feats without Combat Expertise (go go consistent Sneak Attacks). The standard Two-Weapon one is also nice though, because you're a bit tapped for feats.

Under that paradigm, you'd wind up with something like this:

Swashbuckler 1/Slayer 7
1: Weapon Focus (Sawtooth Sabre), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sawtooth Sabre)
3: Slashing Grace (Sawtooth Sabre), Talent: Trapfinding
5: Double Slice, Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Two-Weapon Fighting
7: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Talent: Open

If you need another feat for something, shunt Double Slice into the Talent at 7th and you can get one that way. If you take the Faithful Combat Style, you can shunt Double Slice back to your feat at 9th, take TWF with your normal feat, Two-Weapon Feint from the talent, and then Improved Two-Weapon Feint with the next talent.


I'm aware that a Swashbucler is fitting for my stat array but I don't want to change too much the concept of my character to turn all the levels in that and I'd prefer to avoid dipping too.

Getting Dex to Dmg will be painful I know.
Maybe double rapier will be worth it Lace-ing the second one.
It's really frustrating as Slashing Grace really seems to be worded like that just to f!+# over TWF-ers.

So, as of now I've thought of this:

[H] Weapon Finesse
[1] Weapon Focus:Rapier
[2] ST:Ranger Combat Style: Two-Weapon Fighting
[3] Fencing Grace
[4] ST:Trapfinding
[5] Combat Reflexes
[6] ST:Ranger Combat Style: Improved TWF
[7] Piranha Strike
[8] ST:RT:Combat Trick:Improved Critical:Rapier

But Maybe I'm going to replace Combat Reflexes with Combat Expertise to take Feint at 9th or Piranha Strike


For Piranha Strike to work you'll have to Lace both Rapiers. That may or may not be an issue for you.

Amateur Swashbuckler is a feat to look into, I'd think. I don't know that I'd replace anything on that list, but potentially going forward.

I'd talk to your GM about if Double Slice is needed with Dex-based TWF. That one I expect table variation on, so I was assuming conservative.


You can get Dex to damage without being a swashbuckler. One example of this is the dueling sword. It is a one handed slashing exotic weapon that if you have proficiency for it you can use finesse with. You can also use slashing grace with it as the dex to damage is not dependent on whether you benefit from treating it as a piercing weapon or not.


Jack of Nothing wrote:
You can get Dex to damage without being a swashbuckler. One example of this is the dueling sword. It is a one handed slashing exotic weapon that if you have proficiency for it you can use finesse with. You can also use slashing grace with it as the dex to damage is not dependent on whether you benefit from treating it as a piercing weapon or not.

"One" example is actually almost the only example; as I recall the Whip is the only other option. And the Rapier, via Fencing Grace, which is generally going to be better than the Dueling Sword unless you load up on their specific feats


Well it doesn't take away from the statement even if it is the only option it isn't bad, although I wasn't aware that rapiers had their own feat until someone just now told me in a thread of my own.


I was considering the dueling swords but that would be another feat to burn. Also with rapiers I can crit on a 15 and that's too good.

Amateur Swashbuckler is another option I'm looking into, especially the Parry & Risposte Deed. Maybe on later levels i can afford for Canny Tumble and Confounding Tumble Deed. Or maybe just Pommel Strike to knock down people. Most likely with two weapons that crit once every four hits I will rarely run out of Panache.

Grand Lodge

Rogues suck. Do the redo into slayer.

Rogue rework is far off and they will still most likely have crappies saves in the game as well as still needing to meet ever pre-req for TWF.

They plan to add talents to Sneak attack....big whoop considering SA is still the most unreliable damage source. That video did nothing to peek my interest in the future rogue.

Grand Lodge

I have a special place in my heart for Rogues.

That being said, they are mechanically weak, and there is a class to do everything they do, better.

Everything.

From skill monkey, support combatant, stealthy scout, or any combination of them.

No matter the concept, or focus, or desired flavor, something does it better.

The only concepts I can suggest the Rogue for, is a purposefully going for "hard mode", and/or The Load.


Entryhazard wrote:

This is my first character ever...

The stat array is from a 25-point buy with some permanent incease:

STR 10
DEX 20 (18 + 2 from level 4 and 8)
CON 12 (11 + 1 from solving a puzzle)
INT 14 (12 + 2 Human)
WIS 10
CHA 17 (14 + 3 form the same accident that turned me female)

...

Just a little note about point buy. When you do point buy and have floating stat boosts, like the +2 from human, it is important to put these in the highest stat. If you had made your dex18(16+2 human) and your int 14 you would have had 4 points that could have been used to boost wis and str to 12 or con to 14 form the start.


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Rogues suck. Do the redo into slayer.

Rogue rework is far off and they will still most likely have crappies saves in the game as well as still needing to meet ever pre-req for TWF.

They plan to add talents to Sneak attack....big whoop considering SA is still the most unreliable damage source. That video did nothing to peek my interest in the future rogue.

I agree on all counts.

Penalties to enemy AC while flanking sounds nice, but unless the Rogue gets something to help it move to flank more reliably and survive there, then the bonus seems moot. Sneak Attack adding some sort of debuff sounds great on paper too... In practice the class still suffered greatly against a significant enough portion of enemies.

Then there's flanking. The class requires careful positioning that usually puts them in danger and it has very little bonuses to movement or defenses. Piling more goodies on to flanking without making it easier to get and remain there doesn't particularly solve the class' issues.

It also sounds like Rogue will remain the only class that is stuck at 3/4 BAB. Everyone else has spells or judgments or arcana or flurry or something to rise above 3/4 BAB. Really falls behind past level 10 or so.

Unless they barely scratched the surface in that talk, I don't see things particularly improving. These are important class changes so I don't imagine they'd leave something important out of the equation.

The class has plenty of room to be "raised" and still be at the bottom.


The rogue seems to have been designed as a skill class with some combat, so I would have given it a way to boost its attack bonus without having to get a sneak attack off first. It would also have been nice to have a talent that gives the rogue 1/2 its level to certain skills, and allow it to be taken more than once. Maybe two skills could be taken each time it took the talent. Maybe something that allowed it to use a different mental or physical stat than the one actually applied to skill would also be nice. Another improvement would have been a boost of some sort, even if it was not always on to it fort or will save. I really don't think any mundane class should have 2 poor saves.

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