Blade barrier


Advice


This spell is rapidly becoming my DM's bane, and is rather unbalancing the game. He's considering a rather heavy handed and lame solution (having every significant badguy having access to the level 8 cleic spell immunity spell) and I'm wondering if a balance solution has come up before now, or if we are using it wrong, or if its really just that good?

In the latest example of blade barrier abuse, we just fought a big ol dragon (huge that was buffed up to colosal). Our level 14 cleric had blade barrier memorized in every level 6 + 7 slot , and also has a staff that let him cast blade barrier 5x a day. basically every turn he'd slap a blade barrier IN the dragon, which would hit for about 50hp that turn, then again the next turn as the dragon exited the spell.

(was ruled no relfex save possible since the dragon was so big no way he could avoid the blades - maybe thats the error here by the DM)

This also kept the dragon from casting (50+ damage to the concentration check is enough to even kill a dragons shot) and when the dragon got in melee with the cleric, he just used the rod/staff instead of casting it, therefore no AOO.

He couldn't grapple the cleric due to a FOM ring, and he is specalized at beating SR (elf + both feats) so SR wasn't really an issue. And the dragon moving out of the blade barrier meant he couldn't full out attack and murder people with multiple attacks.

It made the fight almost a joke. It's done the same with other fights - he's cast a blade barrier in the front of a diving flying enemy so they had no choice but to fly through it thier next turn, he's put in on narrow walkways with large creatures so they can't possibly avoid it, stuff like that. It's a crazy effective damage dealer that seems to shine in pretty much every fight.

(Oh, and lining a wall of fire with a blade barrier is great fun for enemeies immune to fire who think they can just charge through the wall :P)


Well, I'd suggest before you come up with house rules to fix things that are broken, you try it with the actual rules first.

A reflex save is allowed no matter how big the thing is. If you cast a blade barrier on a creature, he and he makes his reflex save, he takes no damage and chooses what side of the barrier to be on.

When flying there is no direction between turns, so if you cast a blade barrier 'in front' (facing actually doesn't exist in pathfinder) of a flying creature, whether they dived last turn or not, they can choose to go whatever direction they want, likely avoiding the barrier.

It is a good spell, but I suspect if you follow the rules for the spell, you will find it to be a good spell, not an unbalancing one.

Sovereign Court

You can always take a reflex save regardless of size but anyway...moving on. Dragons are spellcasters and especially if it was a dragon fighting a level 14 party, why would he bother running through the blade barriers? He can just stay in the back and use his breath weapons and spells. Can't help much if your dm wants to use dragons as a big brutes, instead of their scary mix of spellcasters and brutes. Especially vs level 14 APL, I'm guessing the dragons are least CR 17 or more, so they should have access to a good amount of spells.

Usually blade barrier biggest issue, is to not impede your party members during fight since the affected areas are rather large. Creatures with evasion, can take no damage from it, if their saves are high enough.

Also someone can simply cast spells like dispel magic or monsters who can teleport, like evil outsiders (Demons, Devils etc...) Just can bypass most walls rather easily.


I think a major part of the problem here is that the DM is allowing it to happen within his own HR. RAW specifically states under the spell description that if the spell is evoked in a creatures space, they take damage as though they had passed through it, IF they fail a reflex save, which would negate the damage entirely via avoidance and moves to a space of their choice on either side of the wall.

"An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.

A blade barrier provides cover (+4 bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) against attacks made through it."

The issue always arises when using out of game logic in an RPG setting. If you start going down that road, there are certain spells that will absolutely dominate and make savvy caster power gamers run the game. I would just use the rules already in place for it, the reflex save. If the player wants to take Spell Focus, GSF and the like to make it harder to avoid, that's his choice but not using the reflex save like that removes the purpose of those feats and creates unbalance. If I am misunderstanding the problem, please let me know.


Dave Justus wrote:

Well, I'd suggest before you come up with house rules to fix things that are broken, you try it with the actual rules first.

A reflex save is allowed no matter how big the thing is. If you cast a blade barrier on a creature, he and he makes his reflex save, he takes no damage and chooses what side of the barrier to be on.

When flying there is no direction between turns, so if you cast a blade barrier 'in front' (facing actually doesn't exist in pathfinder) of a flying creature, whether they dived last turn or not, they can choose to go whatever direction they want, likely avoiding the barrier.

It is a good spell, but I suspect if you follow the rules for the spell, you will find it to be a good spell, not an unbalancing one.

This. Creature spacing is an abstraction. You aren't a 5x5x5 cube as a medium creature. Lots of room to move. Reflex save allowed.


Casting a blade barrier INSIDE a creature's body is also questionable, since you don't have line of effect to the point inside the creature you want to target.


I think what people are saying is this:

1) Dragon saves vs spell
2) If successful, chooses side of wall away from party
3) Dragon now has cover (+4 AC and +2 to REF saves)
4) Dragon nukes Cleric with breath weapon/spells
5) Cleric is a lot less pretty due to face full of acid/fire/whatevs

It's a pretty good spell, if your GM is removing the option to save against it, he has altered it to make it way better.


Tick another +1 on the "no, he gets a reflex save, period, deal with it" camp.

This doesn't appear to have been mentioned yet:

Timdog wrote:
...which would hit for about 50hp that turn, then again the next turn as the dragon exited the spell...

Why the heck would it be hitting twice? Either it takes effect on the clerics initiative and does damage once or it takes effect on the dragon's turn and takes effect once. Then the dragon is out of the area.

And to expand on flying enemies, a flying creature can do a 90 or 180 degree turn for a DC 15 and DC 20 skill check respectively. ANY critter with a flight speed starts with a +8 for having a fly speed and then adds dex and ranks (which will usually be more than enough) assuming they didn't take wingover or hover, letting them do whatever the heck they want with their flight.

Big stompy SINGLE enemies tend to lose to a party, some joker PC gets a lucky crit or they get an unlucky fail or something happens to wreck the villain's day. But if I was squatting on a CR 15 dragon and he was just getting slapped around by one caster who he (for whatever reason) couldn't just snatch up and eat, I'd have him ready an action to disrupt casting. Sunder his toys. Do what it took.

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing stopping you from sundering a ring of free action, for that matter.


It is also worth mentioning that unless the dragon is staying on the blade barrier(s) and not moving out of them before trying to cast a spell, then there is no concentration check required for taking damage while casting. If the dragon is standing in them, than the dc for concentration is based off of only half of the damage taken since it is treated then as continuous damage (granted this is probably still a high enough dc to prevent casting).

As for the dragon being hit by multiple castings, dragons are smart, it can ready an action to charge the cleric when the cleric casts the spell, or barring that, ready its breath weapon, which would allow it to stop new instances from being cast, and gives your gm a excuse to focus the caster, something a lot of GMs are afraid to due because of potential backlash.

Edit: also, that five cast a day staff is questionable, since if its 5 times a day that would make it 2 charges to cast, which means that every time he casts from the staff, he has to spend two days charging it by spending a spell of at least 6th level. I like staves, but most cases where staves are a problem are a case of the charging rules being broken (or pricing rules being abused)


Quote:
(was ruled no relfex save possible since the dragon was so big no way he could avoid the blades - maybe thats the error here by the DM)

Nope, not maybe ... that's definitely an error.

I think by now it should be clear that regardless of the size of the creature it gets a Reflex save ... the DM is making his own problem by ruling otherwise. And as someone else has pointed out the logic he is using with his houserule is going to get him in trouble with any wall spell the caster might use nevermind the logic being extended to all sorts of other spells >>> He's big so how is he going to dodge any blast spell that would otherwise allow a Reflex save ... because that's not the intent or design of the game, the game is designing and balanced around the assumption that it is almost impossible, if not actually impossible, to be denied a saving throw.

If your DM stopped to think about it the dragon is worse off than if he deliberately moved through the wall ... by the spells text he clearly gets one if he were to do so

Quote:
Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

Not any creature size Med or smaller or something similar.

He needs to rethink his house ruling or he is going to have to deal with far worse down the road.
Edit: To be fair he needs to rethink the consequences of his ruling ... often the undoing of DM's is not thinking through the consequence of a ruling particularly one being adhered to that was made up on the fly. Fortunately it is an easily fixed problem.


Right o overwhelming agreed the dm needs to fix that ruling lol. Thanks all!

In regards to taking damage twice the logic was as follows: when the blades formed he took damage. Then he either sat in it and took more damage or moved out if it, taking more damage. I think you are saying the second damage shouldnt happen, but why? If it forms in him as per the spell wording, you'd have to "cross " it again to get out wouldnt you?

Regardless ill make sure i strongly suggest he puts the reflex save back.

Cheers


The spell doesn't say anything at all about a blade barrier forming in a creature. It says if you evoke a blade barrier where a creature is, it takes damage as though passing through it, reflex saves negates.

The spell is completely silent on what happens if you remain in the blade barrier (although reading the entire text implies that you don't and can't) it is a 'curtain' that you 'pass through' so anytime you aren't 'passing through' (which includes an automatic 'pass through' if it is created where you are) you take damage.

For a medium (or smaller) creature, this is easily explainable as even if the barrier is crossing the square you are in, you could quite easily be on one side or the other. For a large creature, obviously they would be in some cases occupying area that the 'curtain' bisects, however that doesn't change the game effects of the spell.

The spell doesn't do continuous damage. It does damage based on a condition (passing through) and once the condition is triggered and you take the damage that results you stop taking the damage, unless you trigger the condition again by passing through the barrier again.


I think think the clash of a circle blade barrier and a collosal creature is what broke the GMs interpretation. Ill present yours. Thanks again


I think part of the problem is the wording of the spell here:

blade barrier wrote:
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.

The way it's written implies that if the creature fails its reflex save it doesn't get to move out of the barrier until its turn. Since a large creature is still 'technically' in the barrier, when it moves out on its turn it takes the passing through damage. It should've been written so that a creature moves out of the barrier regardless if it passes or fails the initial reflex save.

(Actually, blade barrier [and other wall-like spells] should've been written to explicitly deny being able to cast them into a creature's space.)


I see what you mean. You have to be technical about it: after a failed save you stand in the barrier, and are now not crossing it, but moving out. Crossing implies you enter it first, but you are already in it.
It may sound a bit contrived, but it was certainly not the idea of the designers, that one failed save causes the spell to deal damage twice.

(And here is another can of worms for you: how much space does the wall take and where does it stand (there is no thickness given for the barrier)? :) )


If it was only a line itd be easier but the circle makes it more complicated

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