Five things the Pathfinder message boards taught me that were wrong


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

301 to 350 of 462 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

Most combats are actual fights. The way the Rogue class is designed. To use Sneak Attack requires the class to be within melee. Meaning they become targets of opprtunity as unless one is fighting a monster with low int. No intelligent npc or creature is simply going to stand still and allow the rogue to sneak attack with impunity.

I ran into a similar problem in 3.5. with the Ranger class. I houseruled that a Ranger with Two weapon style had access to medium armors. Light armor unless one has a build with a decent Dex is simply to easy to hit. A player refused to want to take Medium armor. Smart npcs are not going to make a straight line for the armored Fighter. Unless the Fighter is either a archtype or disguised by a illusion spell. Enemies are going to bypass them and go for lightly armored targets.

Sovereign Court

memorax wrote:
Smart npcs are not going to make a straight line for the armored Fighter. Unless the Fighter is either a archtype or disguised by a illusion spell. Enemies are going to bypass them and go for lightly armored targets.

That's why smart fighters get two hats of disguise. One for them - one for the wizard. Switch looks. :P


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
memorax wrote:
Smart npcs are not going to make a straight line for the armored Fighter. Unless the Fighter is either a archtype or disguised by a illusion spell. Enemies are going to bypass them and go for lightly armored targets.
That's why smart fighters get two hats of disguise. One for them - one for the wizard. Switch looks. :P

Because those enemies would attack the wizard that is in their face with the big sword, but would not go after the armored guy casting spells? I thing spell casting is worth the focus regardless of how armored. But I do think it's a neat idea.


How is the Rogue rewarded for not playing fair? Other than certain archetypes specifically made for it the Rogue is terrible at Dirty Tricks, and ambushing an opponent gets him one standard action to sneak attack before he gets wailed on by whatever he tried to back stab.


Righty_ wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
What is a really good rogue talent?
Adv. Dispelling Strike, opportunist
Quote:
Nin Tal avail to rogues Pressure points

I had pressure points on a tengu ninja. It really never worked the way I'd hoped. Basically it was move up, sneak once for 1 dex damage which.. has no effect. Next round claw claw beak 3 dex damage but they're probably dead anyway. Its a very minor bonus to hit.

Quote:
Rt. Trap spotter

Kind of meh and very dm dependant.

Quote:
offensive defense

Got nerfed.

Quote:
weapon training, combat training, minor magic -acud splash, major magic - true strike, and snap shot.

If you're trading class abilities into feats why not be a fighter?


Zhangar wrote:


Thought about it and came back to your responses, because they're kind of odd, honestly. I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from.

Its pretty straitforward. I think the rogue is a bad class. I think that just about anything you want to do mechanically you can do better with another class.

Quote:
Trapspotter: Yes, it is, but you were asking about examples of good rogue talents. Did you mean rogue only or what? Considering how many rogue talents have been farmed out to other classes, that's a really important qualifier to leave out of your initial question.

Its part of the larger question of "Why be a rogue?" If the answer is trapspotting then you're out of luck, because there are classes that give you trapspotting and more hit points and better saves and more bab.

Quote:
Black market connections: Um, if you're shopping for magic items, then you obviously aren't crafting them.

Why bother shopping if you can craft? The rogue gets the ability to get what they want. The wizard gets the ability to get exactly what they want but at half price. Black market connections is a bad reason to be a rogue.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Black market connections: Um, if you're shopping for magic items, then you obviously aren't crafting them.
Why bother shopping if you can craft? The rogue gets the ability to get what they want. The wizard gets the ability to get exactly what they want but at half price. Black market connections is a bad reason to be a rogue.

I did come up with a way for a rogue (and other non-casters) to also get exactly what they want for half the price, but it wasn't accepted very well here on the forums. Also, it's a house rule.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


Quote:
Black market connections: Um, if you're shopping for magic items, then you obviously aren't crafting them.

Why bother shopping if you can craft? The rogue gets the ability to get what they want. The wizard gets the ability to get exactly what they want but at half price. Black market connections is a bad reason to be a rogue.

Wow. Okay.

Just to be sure, you are aware that crafting items actually takes time, right?


Zhangar wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


Quote:
Black market connections: Um, if you're shopping for magic items, then you obviously aren't crafting them.

Why bother shopping if you can craft? The rogue gets the ability to get what they want. The wizard gets the ability to get exactly what they want but at half price. Black market connections is a bad reason to be a rogue.

Wow. Okay.

Just to be sure, you are aware that crafting items actually takes time, right?

Shopping isn't hard at all if you look at the base limit rules?

Teleportation is also available at higher levels or Planar Ally.

The fact that Black Market Connections is a talent that Rogues require to sell stolen goods?

Half of it isn't really all that great and the other half is strictly a roleplaying function that never should have had mechanics tied to it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have no problem amping up rogues and fighters to be good classes with house rules.

I would like to see Hanse Shadowspawn or Gimli be a viable pathfinder character as a rogue and fighter respectively.

But, I am a realist. Hanse Shadowspawn would probably be an ninja or bard and Gimli would probably be an inquisitor or a summoner's eidolon if I wanted them to pull their weight at a Pathfinder table.

It makes me somewhat sad, that is the way it is.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rhedyn wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
bookrat wrote:
It really feels like circular logic here.
It really feels like circular logic here.
So you agree? Disagree? I'm not understanding the point of your reply, here.
yes

Bookrat I am suggesting you cut sling load on this one.


Zhangar wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


Quote:
Black market connections: Um, if you're shopping for magic items, then you obviously aren't crafting them.

Why bother shopping if you can craft? The rogue gets the ability to get what they want. The wizard gets the ability to get exactly what they want but at half price. Black market connections is a bad reason to be a rogue.

Wow. Okay.

Just to be sure, you are aware that crafting items actually takes time, right?

If you do it right, it doesn't take much and you can do it while adventuring. For example, a Artificer's lab (portable) lets you craft on the go.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
wraithstrike wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
bookrat wrote:
It really feels like circular logic here.
It really feels like circular logic here.
So you agree? Disagree? I'm not understanding the point of your reply, here.
yes
Bookrat I am suggesting you cut sling load on this one.

Yup. I already did.

Silver Crusade Contributor

graystone wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


Quote:
Black market connections: Um, if you're shopping for magic items, then you obviously aren't crafting them.

Why bother shopping if you can craft? The rogue gets the ability to get what they want. The wizard gets the ability to get exactly what they want but at half price. Black market connections is a bad reason to be a rogue.

Wow. Okay.

Just to be sure, you are aware that crafting items actually takes time, right?

If you do it right, it doesn't take much and you can do it while adventuring. For example, a Artificer's lab (portable) lets you craft on the go.

What book is that from? I need one for Reign of Winter. :)


Scavion wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


Quote:
Black market connections: Um, if you're shopping for magic items, then you obviously aren't crafting them.

Why bother shopping if you can craft? The rogue gets the ability to get what they want. The wizard gets the ability to get exactly what they want but at half price. Black market connections is a bad reason to be a rogue.

Wow. Okay.

Just to be sure, you are aware that crafting items actually takes time, right?

Shopping isn't hard at all if you look at the base limit rules?

Teleportation is also available at higher levels or Planar Ally.

The fact that Black Market Connections is a talent that Rogues require to sell stolen goods?

Half of it isn't really all that great and the other half is strictly a roleplaying function that never should have had mechanics tied to it.

I'm more baffled at his "no one should buy magic items ever" stance. Seriously, sometimes you need an item right now, not 1 or more months from now.

I'm very well aware of the base limit rules. A settlement with perfect mods caps out at a little above 33,000 - not quite enough to handwave buying a +6 stat item.

Black market connections actually lets you declare "I'm buying a staff of power" without having to give a damn about item availability. (As an extreme example. A +6 to all physical stats belt is something you'd probably be more likely to be grabbing.)

(Amusingly, this also means that Black Market Connections isn't a big deal until the party is both rich and needs to gear up in a hurry.)

Quote:
The fact that Black Market Connections is a talent that Rogues require to sell stolen goods?

Okay, that's outright misunderstanding the talent. The talent's not required to sell stolen goods at all. The talent lets you handwave selling stolen goods.

And now I'm getting annoyed, because the original question was "name a good rogue talent," and so I named a number of talents that are either outright useful (trapspotter, offensive defense (yes, even with the pending nerf), etc.) or do some pretty out there stuff (like black market connections).

I'm not trying to argue that these talents are worth playing a rogue for (as I'm sure all of them are available to other classes, because rogue talents get handed out like candy), and I'm baffled that even identifying them in the first place is being treated that way.


Kalindlara wrote:
graystone wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


Quote:
Black market connections: Um, if you're shopping for magic items, then you obviously aren't crafting them.

Why bother shopping if you can craft? The rogue gets the ability to get what they want. The wizard gets the ability to get exactly what they want but at half price. Black market connections is a bad reason to be a rogue.

Wow. Okay.

Just to be sure, you are aware that crafting items actually takes time, right?

If you do it right, it doesn't take much and you can do it while adventuring. For example, a Artificer's lab (portable) lets you craft on the go.

What book is that from? I need one for Reign of Winter. :)

Advanced Race Guide.


Zhangar wrote:
stuff

Don't let them get to you. Some people just come off very abrasive without meaning to. Some might mean to. Some will think you're saying things you didn't and then argue against that and not care to actually see what you're saying.

Silver Crusade Contributor

bookrat wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
graystone wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


Quote:
Black market connections: Um, if you're shopping for magic items, then you obviously aren't crafting them.

Why bother shopping if you can craft? The rogue gets the ability to get what they want. The wizard gets the ability to get exactly what they want but at half price. Black market connections is a bad reason to be a rogue.

Wow. Okay.

Just to be sure, you are aware that crafting items actually takes time, right?

If you do it right, it doesn't take much and you can do it while adventuring. For example, a Artificer's lab (portable) lets you craft on the go.

What book is that from? I need one for Reign of Winter. :)
Advanced Race Guide.

Thank you! :)

Now to investigate availability...


memorax wrote:
Smart npcs are not going to make a straight line for the armored Fighter. Unless the Fighter is either a archtype or disguised by a illusion spell. Enemies are going to bypass them and go for lightly armored targets.

Unless they're cooperative to stand in place while you move past them I don't think there's often going to be an alternative to going through the area the armoured warriors cover to get to whatever your "real target" is. Particularly since those real targets are also trying to avoid you.


Bluenose wrote:
memorax wrote:
Smart npcs are not going to make a straight line for the armored Fighter. Unless the Fighter is either a archtype or disguised by a illusion spell. Enemies are going to bypass them and go for lightly armored targets.
Unless they're cooperative to stand in place while you move past them I don't think there's often going to be an alternative to going through the area the armoured warriors cover to get to whatever your "real target" is. Particularly since those real targets are also trying to avoid you.

Depends on the tactical map. In an open area there often is a way to the squishies without hitting the armored one.

Alternately, they can throw some sacrificial lambs out. Have a few hit the armor-guys while the rest go for the squishies. I've run into that one a few times. Enough that disengaging is unwise, not so many that they can't still try to pin down the caster and hammer him.

Of course, in other maps the Fighter is standing in a 5' wide doorway and the caster is behind him, so... hope the mooks have ranged attacks.


As a player I've eaten AoOs so that my fellows wouldn't have too. I can see intelligent NPCs doing the same


Yeah, deliberately provoking AoOs is a thing. Both to take one for the team, and to get an enemy to "waste" their AoO before doing something that the AoO could've actually disrupted.

Most enemies may only fall for that once, but that once is often all you need.


Zhangar wrote:

Yeah, deliberately provoking AoOs is a thing. Both to take one for the team, and to get an enemy to "waste" their AoO before doing something that the AoO could've actually disrupted.

Most enemies may only fall for that once, but that once is often all you need.

And how often do PCs fall for it? Xp


Normally I don't like to continue to derailing a thread, but I have an opinion on this Rogue thing, finally.

After having looked at Barbarian rage powers trying to make my (Ex) only mage hunter, I noted that Barbarian Rage powers are WAY more potent then Rogue Talents.

The thing is, they are gained in the same quantity at the same levels. Yes, Rage powers only work during a rage. But let's be honest, towards even the middle of the game, and with Flash Damage style combat, a Barbarian's rage is usually a constant status buff, instead of the precious resource to be hoarded like it used to be. Our Bloodrager rages every round of every battle, and I tend to throw 4-6 battles daily at them. This is the expected standard.

I think Rogue talents need to be revamped into something that is on par with Rage powers, probably with an emphasis on removing enemies' invulnerability to Sneak Attack, and granting more opportunities to use Sneak Attack. Talents that focus on improving skills, and making them have unique uses in combat is also a good idea; since Rogue is supposed to be the Skilled Combatant. (I think they were getting on the right track with some of the skill oriented talents btw)

If they made Rogue talents pack alot more punch mechanically, I think the Rogue could return to the fray as a contender. It would still require system mastery, and playing smart; but that's what the Rogue IS!


kestral287 wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Yeah, deliberately provoking AoOs is a thing. Both to take one for the team, and to get an enemy to "waste" their AoO before doing something that the AoO could've actually disrupted.

Most enemies may only fall for that once, but that once is often all you need.

And how often do PCs fall for it? Xp

More often than you think =P All you really need to do announce "you can take an AoO" and, in my experience the player will usually immediately take it =P

Though the more savvy players will sometimes realize something's up. Depends on how much attention they were actually paying to the fight.


Quote:
More often than you think =P All you really need to do announce "you can take an AoO" and, in my experience the player will usually immediately take it =P

Quoted for truth.


Issac Daneil wrote:

Normally I don't like to continue to derailing a thread, but I have an opinion on this Rogue thing, finally.

After having looked at Barbarian rage powers trying to make my (Ex) only mage hunter, I noted that Barbarian Rage powers are WAY more potent then Rogue Talents.

The thing is, they are gained in the same quantity at the same levels. Yes, Rage powers only work during a rage. But let's be honest, towards even the middle of the game, and with Flash Damage style combat, a Barbarian's rage is usually a constant status buff, instead of the precious resource to be hoarded like it used to be. Our Bloodrager rages every round of every battle, and I tend to throw 4-6 battles daily at them. This is the expected standard.

I think Rogue talents need to be revamped into something that is on par with Rage powers, probably with an emphasis on removing enemies' invulnerability to Sneak Attack, and granting more opportunities to use Sneak Attack. Talents that focus on improving skills, and making them have unique uses in combat is also a good idea; since Rogue is supposed to be the Skilled Combatant. (I think they were getting on the right track with some of the skill oriented talents btw)

If they made Rogue talents pack alot more punch mechanically, I think the Rogue could return to the fray as a contender. It would still require system mastery, and playing smart; but that's what the Rogue IS!

As I mentioned upthread, if you look at the Core Rulebook, rage powers and rogue talents were pretty much balanced when compared to each other. But from the APG onwards, rage powers got a LOT better, and rogue talents often actually got worse.

Rogues would probably be in better shape if talents weren't so... timid I guess? Rogue talent design is weird, especially once you look at alchemist discoveries and even investigator talents for comparison. Rogue talents are just deliberately weaker than the equivalent abilities for other classes.


Designing weak rogue talents was probably the design choice, which is weird.


Nicos wrote:
Designing weak rogue talents was probably the design choice, which is weird.

Amen.


Kthulhu wrote:
People will tell you that your opinion is wrong.

Well of course, if it is wrong. If you don't want your opinions debated, don't post them on a public debate forum.

Kthulhu wrote:
Sometime "their" answer is something that vaguely relates to their original question. If they as for advice on a rogue build, maybe they actually want a rogue build.

Possible, but on average they are more likely to want something that is actually good at the things a Rogue is supposed to be good at, than an actual Rogue. And if they are aware of the Rogue's issues and want to make one anyway, then they can always say that.

_
glass.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Rogue Talents and Combat Feats (well, most feats) have the same problem re: Rage Powers. Rage Powers are viable when they are taken and scale nicely so as to be useful at all levels.

Talents and Combat feats? Not so much.

==Aelryinth


Jiggy wrote:
Well, an opinion can't be wrong

Wait, what? Of course an opinion can be wrong!

_
glass.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Inlaa wrote:
Quote:
More often than you think =P All you really need to do announce "you can take an AoO" and, in my experience the player will usually immediately take it =P
Quoted for truth.

Absolutely. I had a BBEG's familiar provoke an AoO to enter the PCs square and attack, then had the BBEG use dispel magic to remove his displacement while he couldn't attack her.


glass wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Well, an opinion can't be wrong

Wait, what? Of course an opinion can be wrong!

_
glass.

That is just your opinion man, and it is clearly wrong


kestral287 wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Yeah, deliberately provoking AoOs is a thing. Both to take one for the team, and to get an enemy to "waste" their AoO before doing something that the AoO could've actually disrupted.

Most enemies may only fall for that once, but that once is often all you need.

And how often do PCs fall for it? Xp

I think it depends on how obvious the GM is with it. I have done it and it has worked every time, but I almost never do it.


Usually it's about as simple as making the NPC with the best defenses charge past the front line to hit a squishy. Player panics, AoOs, and such. Then several more, squishier, NPCs do the same.

Unless the PC was smart enough for a reach control build.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

glass wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Well, an opinion can't be wrong

Wait, what? Of course an opinion can be wrong!

_
glass.

If it's capable of being wrong, it isn't actually an opinion.

"The rogue is strong enough for me" is an opinion, as it is completely dependent on the speaker's personal tastes. Can't be "wrong", because it's not objective.*

"The rogue is as strong as other 3/4 BAB classes" is NOT an opinion, because it's a reference to static, defined data. As such, it is either right or wrong, and given access to enough information we can determine which of those it is. It has no basis in personal preference, only in printed and/or calculable fact. It is not an opinion.

If you think people's opinions can be wrong, then you need to stop believing people who claim that their wrong statement is an opinion. ;)

*I suppose if you wanted to be really pedantic, you could say that the statement is capable of being wrong, as a person may lack the self-awareness to realize that (for instance) his successes were the result of lucky rolls or generous houserules or whatever and not the result of the actual rogue class. However, the actual notion of the rogue being strong enough for a given person is entirely subjective and outside the scope of factual correctness/incorrectness.


What gives the illusion of "opinions being wrong" is an inability to differentiate between facts and opinions. Factual statements can be incorrect. Opinions can be misguided at best, but never right or wrong.

EX:
Planes fly using magic.

That is a statement of fact, though it is wrong.

I think it's magical that planes can fly.

This is a statement of opinion, but it is misguided.

I'm scared of flying in planes.

Statement of opinion. Is neither misguided nor justified.

Statements of fact assert something and can be proved or disproved.

Opinions are based on personal feelings and cannot be proven or disproven.

Source: A communication textbook.

Sovereign Court

Or his wins weren't based on lucky die rolls or a soft gm, but playing smart and using the tools at hand.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Righty_ wrote:
Or his wins weren't based on lucky die rolls or a soft gm, but playing smart and using the tools at hand.

I would like to point out that the same level of system mastery required to make a Rogue adequate would make an extraordinary Investigator, Alchemist, Ranger, Slayer, Bard, or Inquisitor.

Saying that you played smart using the tools at hand to play a Rogue is basically playing under a handicap. Which is fine if you're a veteran player with a bunch of rookies you don't want to overshadow, but if we were gonna play a difficult campaign like Way of the Wicked or Rappan Athuk I wouldn't want a Rogue there.


Zhangar wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Designing weak rogue talents was probably the design choice, which is weird.
Amen.

Imagine if Rumormonger was a Supernatural ability that allowed the Rogue to change reality by making people believe in a falsehood until it becomes true, a la Persona 2. Now that would be a tenth level ability.

Shadow Lodge

Nicos wrote:
Designing weak rogue talents was probably the design choice, which is weird.

Not all that weird, given the design parameters of Pathfinder, which seem to be that magic is allowed to do anything, while non-magical abilities are limited to what unpaid interns can accomplish in real life.


Because it apparently needs to be stated again, "player cunning" is not a class feature, skill, rogue talent, feat, or anything tied to the rogue class. Anything tricky (that doesn't use a class feature, in this case rogue talents) a player can pull off with a rogue they can pull off with a fighter. And basically that's everything.

And Rumormonger as reality warping would be nice. Bards already get it, it's called Pageant of the Peacock (though the implication is not that you're changing reality but that you're so good at lying you're actually telling the truth).

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kthulhu wrote:
Inlaa wrote:
Fighter//Rogue worked pretty well for combat and out of combat purposes.

I've thought about this some lately. It's a good gestalt that covers a lot of fictional characters better than a pure fighter or a pure rogue. I'd probably enhance it a bit more as well:

Add an advanced rogue talent that allows the gestalt to select a ninja master trick as an advanced talent.

All good saves (yes, even the f+!*ing Will save).

Up the skill points to 10 or even 12 + INT bonus per level. If the guy is supposed to be the skill master, REALLY let him shine.

Free expertise feat at 1st level. Because all frontline warriors should get AT LEAST this.

Warrior-Rogue

Spoiler:

Level Progression Table

The bravest of heroes need not rely on magic or other supernatural powers, they depend only on their own skill and wits. Some depend more upon a strong sword-arm, while others depend upon the quickness of their reflexes, and other rely upon their ability to manipulate others. Warrior-rogues are a varied lot, equally skilled on and off the battlefield. They are soldiers, knights, hunters, thieves, gamblers, and assassins.

Role: Warrior-rogues excel at both combat and moving about unseen and catching foes unaware. They are equally at home defeating their enemies, controlling the flow of battle, and surviving such sorties themselves; or overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents.

Alignment: Any

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills

The warrior-rogue's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Ranks per Level: 12 + Int modifier

Class Features

The following are class features of the warrior-rogue:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A warrior-rogue is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, plus the hand crossbow; and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a warrior-rogue gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the warrior-rogue gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a warrior-rogue can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the warrior-rogue loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A warrior-rogue can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

Skill Bonus (Ex): A warrior-rogue receives an untyped bonus on twelve skills of his choice. This bonus is equal to 10 plus ½ his level.

Sneak Attack: If a warrior-rogue can catch an opponent when she is unable to defend herself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The warrior-rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the warrior-rogue flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two warrior-rogue levels thereafter. Should the warrior-rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a warrior-rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

The warrior-rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A warrior-rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

Trapfinding: A warrior-rogue adds ½ his level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A warrior-rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a warrior-rogue gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a warrior-rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the warrior-rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless warrior-rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Rogue Talents: As a warrior-rogue gains experience, he learns a number of talents that aid him and confound his foes. Starting at 2nd level, a warrior-rogue gains one rogue talent. He gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of warrior-rogue attained after 2nd level. A warrior-rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once unless otherwise noted.

An additional rogue talent is added:

Sniper (Ex): This talent allows the warrior-rogue to use sneak attack with ranged weapons within the first two range increments of the weapon used.

Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a warrior-rogue learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a warrior-rogue can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a warrior-rogue can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a warrior-rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the warrior-rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when he reaches 9th level, to +4 when he reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a warrior-rogue can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he lose his Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A warrior-rogue with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against him.

If a warrior-rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a warrior-rogue can select one group of weapons, as noted in the fighter class. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a warrior-rogue becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a warrior-rogue reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.

A warrior-rogue also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the warrior-rogue's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A warrior-rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Advanced Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a warrior-rogue can choose one of the rogue advanced talents in place of a rogue talent.

An additional advanced talent is added:

Ninja Master Trick: A warrior-rogue with this talent can choose a master trick from the ninja master trick list. The warrior-rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless he has a ki pool. A warrior-rogue can pick this talent more than once. The warrior-rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent.

Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a warrior-rogue gains DR 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield.

Master Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a warrior-rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the warrior-rogue deals sneak attack damage, he can choose one of the following three effects: the target can be put to sleep for 1d4 hours, paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or slain. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + ½ the warrior-rogue's level + the warrior-rogue's Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that warrior-rogue's master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a warrior-rogue chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.


This thread stood out to me when I saw the title, because my gaming table GM and I recently had a conversation about my character chosen. I have a Dreamscarred Psion (Kineticist) majoring in the Rogue skills and powers. Perception, Disable Device, Breach (psionic equivalent of Knock), Locate Secret Doors, etc. I thought I was doing fine as the party Rogue until the GM brought up an issue via private e-mail with me: the Rogue-only ability of Trapfinding.

Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

So if my roleplaying adventurers run into a purely magical trap, yes, we can Perception it, but no, we can't Disable Device it. Period. End of story. We'll have to Dispell it or set it off and hope the magical trap is not Fireball of Save vs. Death.

Any solutions? Any obscure, third-party-feats that any character can take to get around this Achilles Heel?

Rogues can save the party, especially at higher levels with things like Glyph of Warding, Greater.


There's a trait that gives the ability to disable magical traps.


Arachnofiend wrote:
There's a trait that gives the ability to disable magical traps.

Trap Finder: +1 Disable Device, it's a class skill fand disarm magic traps like a rogue.


It is a campaign trait for an AP though.

An alternative is a 1 level dip in Cryptic, Urban Ranger, or Investigator.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
It is a campaign trait for an AP though.

True, but it can't hurt to ask.

Insain Dragoon wrote:
An alternative is a 1 level dip in Cryptic, Urban Ranger, or Investigator.

Or alchemist(Crypt Breaker). Or, you know rogue... :P


Insain Dragoon wrote:

It is a campaign trait for an AP though.

An alternative is a 1 level dip in Cryptic, Urban Ranger, or Investigator.

That doesn't change that it is published in a first party product. It tells you exactly how Paizo values the rogue iconic ability. A little less than a trait.

301 to 350 of 462 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Five things the Pathfinder message boards taught me that were wrong All Messageboards