2 helms of opposite alignment?


Rules Questions


So the description of helm of opposite alignment says that you can only get original alignment back my wish or miracle, but could you not just plop a second helm on them, and reverse alignment again? Thanks.

Silver Crusade

Yes. You haven't technically undone the first helm, just been affected by a second one. If your new alignment after the second helm happens to match your original alignment before the first, that doesn't prevent the second helm from working.

If you get damaged, then healed, this healing doesn't prevent you from getting damaged again.

What the curse prevents you from doing is choosing to change your behaviour away from your new, cursed alignment. It doesn't prevent further magical manipulation of your alignment.

Although you can choose to fail your save against the (first) helm, the curse will not allow you to choose to fail your save against the second helm.

Helm of Opposite Alignment wrote:
...the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.

So, no choosing to return, but failing your save against the second helm will have the usual effect.


Thanks, time to defeat a tarresque!!


Wait, what?

Explain how that could lead to defeating a tarrasque?

It seems like it should be an interesting adventure.

Silver Crusade

pinny0101 wrote:
Thanks, time to defeat a tarresque!!

[tilt]

Say what???


Depends on what your original alignment was.

If your alignment was wholly non-neutral (LG, CG, LE, CE,) then a second Helm would reverse you back to your original alignment --- though you might not have your original personality. For example, if your lawful good hero (who's almost neutral good because of a faltering commitment to lawfulness) got helmed to chaotic evil, and then helmed back to lawful good, you'd become staunchly lawful good per the Helm's function.

If your alignment had neutral components, you wouldn't get your old alignment back. A neutral good would become lawful or chaotic evil, NOT neutral evil:

Quote:
On a failed save, the alignment of the wearer is radically altered to an alignment as different as possible from the former alignment—good to evil, chaotic to lawful, neutral to some extreme commitment (LE, LG, CE, or CG).

Suppose the neutral good became lawful evil. Then, when she dons a second Helm, she would become chaotic good.


Ok well the idea for defeating tarresque is that you have 2 helms of opposite alignment, then you beat up tarresque and knock him out for a while, u continually put helm on him untill he fails save, but there is a 50% chance he turns evil, so then you take second helm and repeat untill he turns good, and tada, you have a giant unkillable monster working to rid the world of evil!!

Silver Crusade

I'm pretty sure that the opposite of NG is NE. It's not that there can be no neutral component after the change, it's referring specifically the True Neutral alignment that must become one of the four extremes (LG, CG, LE, CE), but NG and NE are opposite pairs, as are LN and CN.

Silver Crusade

pinny0101 wrote:
Ok well the idea for defeating tarresque is that you have 2 helms of opposite alignment, then you beat up tarresque and knock him out for a while, u continually put helm on him untill he fails save, but there is a 50% chance he turns evil, so then you take second helm and repeat untill he turns good, and tada, you have a giant unkillable monster working to rid the world of evil!!

...er...good luck...! Let's hope he fails all those DC15 will saves while allowing you to keep trying to jam a collossal helm on its head.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
pinny0101 wrote:
Ok well the idea for defeating tarresque is that you have 2 helms of opposite alignment, then you beat up tarresque and knock him out for a while, u continually put helm on him untill he fails save, but there is a 50% chance he turns evil, so then you take second helm and repeat untill he turns good, and tada, you have a giant unkillable monster working to rid the world of evil!!
...er...good luck...! Let's hope he fails all those DC15 will saves while allowing you to keep trying to jam a collossal helm on its head.

Well you knock him out first, not very hard too do, most archers are more than capable, im thinking some sort of zen archer to knock him down and some sort of cohort to craft helms.


So...most cursed items don't get much in the way of real updates since they came into existence. Nor are they thoroughly described because they're supposed to be bad things that occasionally happen to players. Not tools for players to use.

That being said, while the Helm of Opposite Alignment does not specifically call itself a "mind-affecting effect" I think it's fair to say that it probably is. If you accept this, then you should know that the Tarrasque is immune to mind-affecting effects, and would be immune to the helm.

As a GM, that is most certainly how I would run it.

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:

So...most cursed items don't get much in the way of real updates since they came into existence. Nor are they thoroughly described because they're supposed to be bad things that occasionally happen to players. Not tools for players to use.

That being said, while the Helm of Opposite Alignment does not specifically call itself a "mind-affecting effect" I think it's fair to say that it probably is. If you accept this, then you should know that the Tarrasque is immune to mind-affecting effects, and would be immune to the helm.

As a GM, that is most certainly how I would run it.

Well, it's a curse. Are they immune to curses?


Claxon wrote:

So...most cursed items don't get much in the way of real updates since they came into existence. Nor are they thoroughly described because they're supposed to be bad things that occasionally happen to players. Not tools for players to use.

That being said, while the Helm of Opposite Alignment does not specifically call itself a "mind-affecting effect" I think it's fair to say that it probably is. If you accept this, then you should know that the Tarrasque is immune to mind-affecting effects, and would be immune to the helm.

As a GM, that is most certainly how I would run it.

Hey claxon, I saw you in the other post about killing terresque, and thats were I got idea, I am trying too beat the tarresque at lowest possible level, and RAW, this would work


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the opposite of NG is NE. It's not that there can be no neutral component after the change, it's referring specifically the True Neutral alignment that must become one of the four extremes (LG, CG, LE, CE), but NG and NE are opposite pairs, as are LN and CN.

That's what I'd think at first. But it also says "as different as possible from the original alignment" --- and a three-step change (NG to LE) is more different than a two-step change (NG to NE.)


Sandslice wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the opposite of NG is NE. It's not that there can be no neutral component after the change, it's referring specifically the True Neutral alignment that must become one of the four extremes (LG, CG, LE, CE), but NG and NE are opposite pairs, as are LN and CN.
That's what I'd think at first. But it also says "as different as possible from the original alignment" --- and a three-step change (NG to LE) is more different than a two-step change (NG to NE.)

Yes, but it says neutral to and extremity, and lists cg,lg,ce,le as those extremities. Note it says neutral, not ng or ne, and how could a player become cge or something.


You could also think of it as, it is a helm of opposite alignment, so ne is the opposite of ng, not cg

Silver Crusade

pinny0101 wrote:
You could also think of it as, it is a helm of opposite alignment, so ne is the opposite of ng, not cg

That's right.

Silver Crusade

It also must be pointed out that every curse-type spell I've seen allows Spell Resistance. Tarrasques have DR35 and the helm has a CL of 12th.


Its not a spell however, only spells alloe sr, unless specificly stated, and sr is different from dr.

Silver Crusade

SLAs are subject to SR, and magical effects from magic items are either spell-like or supernatural.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Claxon wrote:

So...most cursed items don't get much in the way of real updates since they came into existence. Nor are they thoroughly described because they're supposed to be bad things that occasionally happen to players. Not tools for players to use.

That being said, while the Helm of Opposite Alignment does not specifically call itself a "mind-affecting effect" I think it's fair to say that it probably is. If you accept this, then you should know that the Tarrasque is immune to mind-affecting effects, and would be immune to the helm.

As a GM, that is most certainly how I would run it.

Well, it's a curse. Are they immune to curses?

It's a cursed item, but not a curse in game terms as that is a spell descriptor.

That is part of the problem with cursed items, they don't actually provide much in the way of mechanical details for how the effects are supposed to work.

To be honest, a GM has to make up a lot about how cursed items are supposed to work.

I was simply explaining how I would run it in a home game. The actual rules don't do a particularly great job of explaining how exactly they function.


Sandslice wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the opposite of NG is NE. It's not that there can be no neutral component after the change, it's referring specifically the True Neutral alignment that must become one of the four extremes (LG, CG, LE, CE), but NG and NE are opposite pairs, as are LN and CN.
That's what I'd think at first. But it also says "as different as possible from the original alignment" --- and a three-step change (NG to LE) is more different than a two-step change (NG to NE.)

They're all two step changes because diagonals.


Kazaan wrote:
Sandslice wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the opposite of NG is NE. It's not that there can be no neutral component after the change, it's referring specifically the True Neutral alignment that must become one of the four extremes (LG, CG, LE, CE), but NG and NE are opposite pairs, as are LN and CN.
That's what I'd think at first. But it also says "as different as possible from the original alignment" --- and a three-step change (NG to LE) is more different than a two-step change (NG to NE.)
They're all two step changes because diagonals.

No, thats down diagonal, 3 step.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
pinny0101 wrote:
So the description of helm of opposite alignment says that you can only get original alignment back my wish or miracle, but could you not just plop a second helm on them, and reverse alignment again? Thanks.

Because these are generally encountered singly as cursed items, not ordered through the mail from MagicMart.


Diagonal 'steps' don't exist on the alignment chart. That mostly matters for Clerics and such, but it is a thing.

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:
pinny0101 wrote:
So the description of helm of opposite alignment says that you can only get original alignment back my wish or miracle, but could you not just plop a second helm on them, and reverse alignment again? Thanks.
Because these are generally encountered singly as cursed items, not ordered through the mail from MagicMart.

I imagine such could be crafted, but the trick would be getting the character to don the second helm.

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