Bad Ideas: Can Flight for PC races be made balanced?


Homebrew and House Rules


So Flight is probably a bad idea for a 10 RP-level race: it offers great advantages in combat because land-bound opponents have a hard time hitting you. Sure, there are tricks to bring down its advantage, but let's assume you don't want to be pulling those out often enough that they would be effective.

What if there was a version of Flight that didn't grant that combat advantage? Say, the flying is so distracting or awkward that weapon attacks and spellcasting take massive penalties or just plain aren't possible, forcing the flying character to land to do all their fighting. Yes, it's ham-fisted, but I believe in ham. (It also doesn't address flight's ability to bypass obstacles, but I'm not a great believer in those.)

So how bad is this idea?

Or is there another way to balance the value of Flight, like making it cost way more Race Points? (Not that I'm suggesting Race Points work all that well.)


I have a homebrew race in my campaigns that can fly. It's fey based and small in size. I've found that it is not overpowered at all. Sure in certain situations it can be very beneficial but the following limitations seem to control it nicely:

a.) the wings are only strong enough to lift the creature, it's gear and a load of no more then 40lbs.
b.) Armor heavier then light interferes with the wings.
c.) Hovering to cast a spell, attack, etc requires a skill check. If you are using it all the time, you will fail those checks. Falling in front of an enemy you just tried to hit in the head, while over hostile terrain, etc.. tends to make pcs cautious.
d.) If you are flying you have isolated yourself from the rest of the party. That tends to have bad consequences along the lines of splitting the party.
e.) A lot of our adventures eventually take place inside buildings and underground, which limits flying opportunities.
f.) a good number of monsters, npcs, etc have ranged attacks.

Put that all together, and I haven't found it to be disruptive or encounter trivializing at all.


What about arms turning into wings, so somatic components or holding anything would not be possible while flying (as you would need to keep flapping to stay aloft)? (Psionics may be an issue, though)

You could get two wing buffet secondary attacks while your arms are wings and you are NOT flying, too.


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Honestly, I think the idea that Flight is overpowered is a bit questionable. The things Cinderfist mentioned are exactly the sort of things you can do to limit Flight's overall impact.

I'm going to state some of my own things, which will look like Cinderfist's in places:

1) You should probably be sure to be familiar with the rules for flying here.

2) You can't fly while encumbered with more than a medium load or with armor heavier than light. Keep in mind any armor is going to have to be specially crafted to fit around your wings and will likely add to armor costs.

3) While you can see things the party can't see when Flying, you can also be seen. If the race is common enough to be a PC, then it's common enough for people to keep an eye out for them flying around.

4) Adventures tend to take place indoors and/or underground where it's very unlikely you'll get a chance to spread your wings.

5) Even if you can help with some obstacle removal (tying ropes to help form a bridge around a chasm, for instance), being away from the group to do it is the same as being separated from the party and should be treated as such.


There was a reason I stated I wanted to go into this assuming the DM wouldn't use those tricks: they assume things about the style of game that may not be true. I mean "Adventures tend to take place indoors": what if that's not true? I think it's better to have an option that takes into account a different play style.

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It's not just a matter of combat advantage. At-will flight makes several skills obsolete and trivializes many common obstacles. Published adventures assume that characters below 5th level cannot use fly to overcome obstacles. It assumes characters will have to use up resources to fly between levels 5 to 8.

In order to find an adequate compromise, you need to figure out exactly what about flight that you want to keep.


I'm not really sure: I'm notorious (to myself) for not using useful powers my characters have. I just think "Flight looks cool" and beyond that don't really care what it does.

This was mostly one of those ideas you come up with when there's nothing better to think about, and I decided to throw it out just to see what happened.


Hm.

What about a race with a 'glide' rather than a 'fly' ability? Let's say, for instance, we made a race of flying squirrel people or a race of bat-like people that have those folds of skin that stretch out like a glider when they spread their arms. How would that look in race points and statwise?


Inlaa wrote:

Hm.

What about a race with a 'glide' rather than a 'fly' ability? Let's say, for instance, we made a race of flying squirrel people or a race of bat-like people that have those folds of skin that stretch out like a glider when they spread their arms. How would that look in race points and statwise?

It would probably look like a Tengu with the Glide alternate racial trait.

Dark Archive

Offer this Racial Trait
Flight: The race has a fly speed of 30 feet with clumsy maneuverability.
---------------------------

Then offer a feat like this, though perhaps with more requirements

Improved Flight (or whatever name is picked)
Prerequisite: Racial Fly Speed.
Benefit: Your fly speed increases by 10ft. and your maneuverability by one step.


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
There was a reason I stated I wanted to go into this assuming the DM wouldn't use those tricks: they assume things about the style of game that may not be true. I mean "Adventures tend to take place indoors": what if that's not true? I think it's better to have an option that takes into account a different play style.

Of Cinderfist's list, three are home elements (a, b, and e), one is kind of a common sense thing (d), and the other two are rules elements. E is particularly common, certainly not in all instances but many. PCs will be going inside at some point, and probably not too far into the future. B is really an extension of an existing rule point: Fly is hit by Armor Check Penalties. At low levels, when Fly is defensively strongest (as opposed to offensively necessary), the -4 of, say, a Breastplate hurts. A lot. Later on, that's trivial-- oh no, a DC19 check instead of DC15, when I can't fail a DC15 if I want to! But later on, the Solar or Dragon don't really care if you're flying, you're still going to get clawed/shot/spelled out of the air.

So not really tricks, just the basics of the rules.

That said, personally I've got no problem with a PC running a Strix.


Quote:
It would probably look like a Tengu with the Glide alternate racial trait.

Tengu have that?

...Excuse me while I go wander off to a corner and crack a digital book open.


I have a race in my custom world that has short-range flight from level 1... but their wings are also their arms (bat people). They can't fly if holding anything.

Okay, here's the Pathfinderised version:

Short-range Flight

You can fly only during your turn. At the end of your turn, if you are still in the air, you fall.

You may wish to combine it with the glide ability.

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Real flight allows a number of challenges to be circumvented. Of course, if flight is common in your world (such that pretty much everyone is expected to fly), it could work.

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What if you could only fly maybe 5 feet off the ground? More like a hover, but still.

Dark Archive

The way I look at it is if you want flying making sure it is actually flying, not some cheap cop-out such as Glide or Hover.

Fly is supposed to actually mean Fly, and I say balance it that you start out a clumsy flier with perhaps 20 ft movement before then increase flying speed and maneuverability by a feat.

In a setting with flying, playable, races it would balance out because their would more to counter flying. That is how I see it anywhy.


Alternatively, just let the flight kick in once the creature has at least 5 hit dice, with some other benefit or extremely limited rounds of use beforehand.

Once players are level 5, flight is no longer really an issue. At very low levels it can cause issues, especially if you are running published APs, because it trivialises some encounters.


Inlaa wrote:

Hm.

What about a race with a 'glide' rather than a 'fly' ability? Let's say, for instance, we made a race of flying squirrel people or a race of bat-like people that have those folds of skin that stretch out like a glider when they spread their arms. How would that look in race points and statwise?

#PhanatonsPhorLiphe


Do something like Aasimar. They start out without flight, but can use a chain of 2 feats to upgrade to get it at character level 10.

Too bad Tieflings don't have anything equivalent -- they can have "vestigial wings", but these never actually do much.


Flight at low levels is kind of overvalued. The fly check DCs are high enough that decent armor is going to put a crimp on your style until higher anyway, and in cases such as "light armor, high dex archer", there are plenty of low level flying monsters to toss in that it really doesn't make that much of a difference in encounter difficulty. Or just give those Orcs some bows.

As for out of combat utility, it does help overcome some common obstacles...for the character who's flying. Being able to fly over a river doesn't help the rest of the part cross, as trying to carry another PC is almost guaranteed to push you into heavy encumbrance. As for flying a rope up to make an ascent easier, sure, great idea. But it has similar risks to scouting, having one character go off into potentially hazardous territory alone.

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Temporary flight is a 5th level ability. At-will/long duration flight is a 9th level ability. This is the benchmark the game uses. Remember this is about balance, keeping the ability within these boundaries.

Prince Yyrkoon wrote:

Flight at low levels is kind of overvalued. The fly check DCs are high enough that decent armor is going to put a crimp on your style until higher anyway, and in cases such as "light armor, high dex archer", there are plenty of low level flying monsters to toss in that it really doesn't make that much of a difference in encounter difficulty. Or just give those Orcs some bows.

As for out of combat utility, it does help overcome some common obstacles...for the character who's flying. Being able to fly over a river doesn't help the rest of the part cross, as trying to carry another PC is almost guaranteed to push you into heavy encumbrance. As for flying a rope up to make an ascent easier, sure, great idea. But it has similar risks to scouting, having one character go off into potentially hazardous territory alone.

That's not true. You don't need to make any Fly checks unless you're performing a difficult maneuver during combat or something significant hits you. Unless you suddenly get into combat, having armor will be no hindrance. Having a fly speed gives you an inherent bonus to Fly depending on the All the "downsides" to using flight for utility and overcoming obstacles also apply for a scout who specializes in Acrobatics and Climb, except the scout doesn't need to do any skill checks and it's easier for them to flee or use height to avoid monsters they encounter. It still makes many skills obsolete by virtue of accomplishing the same thing and giving massive advantages on top of it. And it's yet another punch to the martial/rogue's face.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Inlaa wrote:

Hm.

What about a race with a 'glide' rather than a 'fly' ability? Let's say, for instance, we made a race of flying squirrel people or a race of bat-like people that have those folds of skin that stretch out like a glider when they spread their arms. How would that look in race points and statwise?

#PhanatonsPhorLiphe

The flying skin flaps are called patagium.

The more you know.

edit: Also, Sylph have something similar with the help of a specialized cloak. I forget the name of the cloak, but basically it's a gliding effect.


Cyrad wrote:
What if you could only fly maybe 5 feet off the ground? More like a hover, but still.

Sounds similar to:

Quote:


Scorn Earth (Su)

At 1st level, an elocater’s feet lift from the ground. From now on, she can float a foot above the ground, but still move and act as if she were standing on solid ground. At distances greater than 1 foot from any sufficiently stable surface, her speed diminishes to 10 feet per round, but she can move in any direction (including straight up or down). Melee and ranged attacks suffer increasing penalties as if she were the subject of the defy gravity power.

Scorn earth is constantly active, even when unconscious, unless the elocater deliberately suppresses it (a free action), is heavily encumbered, or is slain. If the elocater is carrying a medium load or wearing heavy or medium armor while using scorn earth, her speed reduces to 10 feet per round.

However, this ability requires level 6 and several prereqs.

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SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

What if there was a version of Flight that didn't grant that combat advantage? Say, the flying is so distracting or awkward that weapon attacks and spellcasting take massive penalties or just plain aren't possible, forcing the flying character to land to do all their fighting. Yes, it's ham-fisted, but I believe in ham. (It also doesn't address flight's ability to bypass obstacles, but I'm not a great believer in those.)

So how bad is this idea?

Animal Races: Clan of the Bat, a third-party PDF, features a playable flying race that works exactly like that.

Dark Archive

This I may get some raised eyebrows for this... but I feel the Ponyfinder Campaign Setting by Silver Games LLC handles flying races well, one of which happens to be a core race.
Flying Races in Ponyfinder

Dark Archive

Did I quiet the conversion by my post? I apologize it the post is a problem, I just feel that yes flying races can be made to work.

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The conversation was more-or-less finished, Jonathon.

Dark Archive

Oh... sorry, I didn't realize it was finished as I don't remember seeing an agreement being made on the question.


Well as the OP I eventually decided I didn't care either way.

So if that counts for something then there you go.


After 5th level flight isn't an issue.

Just make whatever race you're making have very limited flight capability until that point and then just give them a normal flight effect.


This thread helped me make the decision to finally create a race with flight for my players to use. I have one who has begged for it in the past, but my other players insisted that it's OP. I have always been rather permissive, but since the players felt that way I was inclined not to fool with it (that and playing in three dimensions was daunting without specialized equipment).

Now, having played games like Numenera without a grid and minis and Mobile Frame Zero where movement is measured with a Lego-brick ruler, I'm not so daunted, and the trade-offs presented here give me the tool kit for making this balanced, I think.

Thanks, OP.


Foghammer wrote:
....and the trade-offs presented here give me the tool kit for making this balanced, I think.

Which trade-offs?

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