Rolling up one for a Pbp here, and can't figure out what classes to use.
Was thinking either Norgorber, in which case he'll be vanilla Assassin prestige class, or Achaekek, in which case he'll go for Red Mantis Assassin.
Want to keep the divine, preferably casting, in there, so.
Any advice appreciated!
On second thought, how does a human Swashbuckler/Warpriest two-weapon fighting with sawtooth sabres sound?
Weapon Focus from Warpriest, "Weapon Finesse" from Swashbuckler, Slashing Grace- human, and Two-Weapon Fighting?
I'm not incredibly familiar with divine classes but there is an Inquisitor archetype that trades judgment for a scaling studied target and a small amount of sneak attack. You also gain access to a very small number of slayer talents at I think 8th level.
For gestalt? Deliverer Slayer + Cleric. Non-gestalt, Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor.
Why a Deliver Slayer?
What does he offer, in the first fine levels, because that's how long it takes to qualify for either assassin prestige class.
Should've said this earlies as well, but I'd like to make him a fetchling, if possible.
Hybrid classes are awkward to gestalt, in my experience, because they're just a worse version of a gestalt of the two parent classes. Warpriest can be done just as well or better by gestalting cleric with anything full BAB; the higher level of casting gives you better buffs, which will generally make up for the class features you miss. Swashbuckler in particular would constantly compete with warpriest for swift/immediate actions.
Having played a gestalt Red Mantis Assassin a while back, I'd recommend ranger/cleric. The deity-specific 'Faithful' combat styles are really nice, and, surprise, Achaekek has one! With cleric granting sawtooth sabre proficiency and ranger giving you free TWF, you can get into the prestige with only two 'real' feats expended, and you won't necessarily need to invest heavily in dexterity (since ranger ignores prerequisites) or wisdom (since you aren't worried about spell DCs). That lets you focus on building up strength and charisma, so your channeling and prayer attack will have strong DCs.
Hybrid classes are awkward to gestalt, in my experience, because they're just a worse version of a gestalt of the two parent classes. Warpriest can be done just as well or better by gestalting cleric with anything full BAB; the higher level of casting gives you better buffs, which will generally make up for the class features you miss. Swashbuckler in particular would constantly compete with warpriest for swift/immediate actions.
Having played a gestalt Red Mantis Assassin a while back, I'd recommend ranger/cleric. The deity-specific 'Faithful' combat styles are really nice, and, surprise, Achaekek has one! With cleric granting sawtooth sabre proficiency and ranger giving you free TWF, you can get into the prestige with only two 'real' feats expended, and you won't necessarily need to invest heavily in dexterity (since ranger ignores prerequisites) or wisdom (since you aren't worried about spell DCs). That lets you focus on building up strength and charisma, so your channeling and prayer attack will have strong DCs.
Well, we're starting at level one.
What do you suggest doing for the first level?Just curious.
Should I just take Two-Weapon Fighting at first?
Getting 15 Dex isn't really an issue, our stats will be pretty high.
Huh, maybe I could provide a better idea if I knew what Gestalt meant.
Basically, taking a level in two classes each level, taking the best of skills, BAB, saves, etc. and both class features.
Well, we're starting at level one.
What do you suggest doing for the first level?
Just curious.
First level's pretty simple; you've got full BAB from ranger and a nifty sword proficiency from cleric, so just grab Power Attack and go to town. Two-handing and power attacking is about the best anyone can do at first level; you'll have a 1d6 channel and the ability to cast CLW as backup, and a favored enemy (ask your GM for suggestions, but human's always a safe bet). You can pick up a second sword at second level, once you actually get Two-Weapon Fighting as a ranger bonus feat, and then grab Weapon Focus at third, at which point your attack bonus should be high enough to dual-wield full-time.
How do you generate stats? It is important in case one feel like suggesting shaman/ slayer or monk or brawler.
The power of full flurry with divine favor(at level 4 since you took a Frostbite on each is not a bad trick. Or use slumber hex and CDG.
On the same note a Druid/monk is amazing.
And if you can live with out the divine stuff and just allow the poor guy to be religious without being dependent on the god for power. A kensai/wizard(admixture evoker pehaps) is also a very powerfull combo.
I suppose Deliverer is completely unneeded for the concept, I kind of just defaulted to it because of the divine aspect of it.
In my opinion, it isn't worth going into Assassin at all. Slayer can get the same death attack and more, losing only a few Sneak Attack dice for much better to-hit and more feats. Slayer talents are very powerful.
Another combo would be Slayer/Cult Leader Warpriest. More Sneak Attack dice, weaker spells, but some Warpriest bonuses like fervor and Sacred Weapon.
If you wanted to go Achaekek, Mantis Zealot Warpriest would work too, but I think it's a bit worse than Cult Leader overall due to losing Sacred Weapon.
I think in this case, Slayer > Ranger. You lose the Animal Companion/low-level divine spells for more bonus feats (Slayer Talents) and Sneak Attack dice.
Stars are generated with 18d6, with three die on each score
I know the numbers beforehand, and I'll get the numbers for y'all in a bit.
I've also got +5 BAB at 1st.
Weird and powerful, I know, but that's what gestalt is all about.
Edit: numbers to split:
5,3,6,5,3,3,5,5,6,4,6,6,4,5,5,5,4,6
Edit: that's +5 BAB on top of whatever my classes give me. So, effectively, I could start with +6/+1 at 1st.
Don't ask me, I'm not the GM.
Well the Oracle's use of Charisma would synergies well. I could see The time mystery being fun as you could have a hasted sneak attack and teleportation. Or dark tapestry if you have no other means to get dark vision as well as having some cool powers associated with darkness.
Scratch that I was thinking ranger on the CHA synergy instead of slayer.
Also, to weigh in on the Red Mantis Assassin prestige class:
With Gestalt, I think you can do a lot of what the Red Mantis gives you without taking a level of the prestige class. Your divine spells will do a lot of what the abilities of the class do, but if you're fond of the death attack, I could see Slayer + Red Mantis Assassin//Cleric working out pretty well. It's got 9th level spells so it is tough to go wrong.
Deleted a post with me not making sense.
What would the slayer cleric look like?
I don't know much about the mechanics of the slayer, so any advice on that part would be nice.
Cap. Darling, those numbers are the rolls.
I take three numbers for each score, and add them together.
At every even Slayer level, you get a Slayer Talent. These Slayer Talents can be used for things like Ranger Combat feats (at 2, 6, and 10), Trapfinding, bonus combat feats, etc.
At level 10, you unlock Advanced Slayer Talents. You can grab a Death Attack from that.
Slayer talents for me would look something like:
2: Ranger Combat Style (Two-Weapon Fighting)
4: Finesse Rogue or Weapon Training (Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus), Finesse Rogue is only useful if you have not taking Weapon Finesse yet or if you can retrain out of it
6: Ranger Combat Style II
8: Weapon Training or Combat Feat
10: Ranger Combat Style III
12: Assassinate
With Slayer, you also gain some Sneak Attack and Studied Target, a combat-and-out-of-combat buff that works on any target.
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So assassin type, cleric/slayer?
pretty easy really:
1st level feat: Power Attack
use a greatsword or something, hit the enemy and he will die.
stats go for STR>CON/WIS>DEX>CHA>INT
At level 2, pick the ranger combat style, two weapon fighting as your combat style, so you can enjoy attacking with two weapons if that is what you are going for. Remember that feats obtained with ranger combat style, don't need to meet the prereq, so you can have an okay dex without investing too much into it, while having a high strength for damage.
Halforc shaman/monk get High Wisdom and decent stats all over. Fates favored trait to boost divine Favor that you get at level 3(via favored class). Pummeling style at level 1 and slumber hex at level 2. Get the extra BAB.
Halforc shaman/monk get High Wisdom and decent stats all over. Fates favored trait to boost divine Favor that you get at level 3(via favored class). Pummeling style at level 1 and slumber hex at level 2. Get the extra BAB.
While that's a very functional build, it's not quite what I'm going for.
I want to keep the two-weapon fighting, assassin flavor.With the fetchling, if possible.
Thanks though!
I would recommend against the prestige classes. Slayer gives you full BAB, studied target, sneak attack and slayer talents. Use the slayer talents to pick up two weapon fighting without needing to max out DEX. Slayer will also allow you to pick up the advanced talent Assassinate at 10th level. Cleric would normally be a good second class, but you want to play a fetchling but they have a penalty to WIS. Oracle of lore could work pretty well. Take Sidestep Secret and feat Noble Scion of War and your CHA gives you AC, reflex saves, and initiative. Spontaneous Symbbology and Arcane Archivist will give you access to a lot of different spells that oracles usually don’t have.
This also gives you full BAB, all good saves, 9th level spells, studied target, sneak attack, and slayer talents.
Remember, Mysterious Stranger, taking a prestige class only delays one side of the classes.
I can take Red Mantis while continuing slayer, or oracle, or whatever I actually decide on.
I'm getting some good advice here, good to know I cm always count on the boards.
What about alchemist and cleric?
Could use the extracts, along with sneak attack from vivsectionist, and that would help the death attack going off of Int.
Hmm.
The gestalt does fix a lot of issues with the class.
Any archetypes, or no?
The alchemist-(vivisectionist)/inquisitor(infiltrator/sanctified slayer) would basically be a rogue, minus the feats, plus extracts.
Plus discoveries. Which are by and large better than talents. Slayer also would give you actual full BAB.
Honestly, with the +5 BAB at 1st (unique rule for this campaign, BAB isn't even a real issue.)
Alchemist (Vivisectionist, Beastmorph)/Inquisitor would be beastly.
These are two of the best self buffing classes in the game. You get Sneak Attack, a +4 to one stat (scaling to +6 to one, and +4 to another, to +8 to ALL stats, and a similar boost to Natural Armor), Judgement, Bane (aka "f&!+ that particular sub-type as a Swift whenever I want"), various Discoveries enhanceing your abilities (Thematic ones: Chameleon, Preserve Organs, Greater/Grand/True Mutagen, Sticky Poison, Concentrate Poison, and Extend/Enhance/Eternal Potion), and a surprisingly versatile spell list with spells to aid you in any Assasin-y things you need to do (Spider Climb? Check. Fly? Check. Invisibility/Greater? Check. And so on). And Pounce, with Beastmorph.
You'll be a hellion in combat, even if you WEREN'T getting a ludicrous +5 to BaB on top, your skills will be amazing (6+Int, have an actual reason to boost Int), and you'll bring some utility to the group as well.
The only problem is it's a bit MAD (you need Dex for TWFing, Str for damage, Con for survivability, and at least a token amount of both Wis and Int to be serviceable). But you can also safely dump Cha and take the Conversion Inquisition to run all social skills off Wis, so you can do the face-y Assassin things too.
So, the general consensus is to stay away from both Red Mantis and vanilla Assassin?
And why not take Sanctified? They get studied target, which is a longer-term buff to attack and damage at the same time, without giving up bane.
Mostly because it isn't needed for Gestalt. You get enough attack/damage, so Judgement is more versatile and will benefit you more. Plus the Sneak Attack won't stack, I believe.
How about Infiltrator?
And what about inquisitions/domains?
Kinda wanna take Deception, for the teleportation effect, but the conversion inquisition does look great.
Are those stats generated using the system I mentioned?
Cause it's not point buy.
It's these numbers:
So, Str 16 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 13 Cha 9 sounds about right for your stats.
Swap Int and Wis depending on whether you want to focus more on Inquisitor spells or Alchemist Extracts and skills, or swap Wis and Str if you want to go the Agile route.
Relying on Sneak Attack for damage is folly. Too many things are either outright immune or can easily negate your ability to Sneak Attack to make it a reliable damage source. Sneak Attack is a nice extra, not something you rely on.
Fetchling is, in either case, pretty horrible here. The stat bonuses are misallocated and it doesn't grant anything else particularly useful for your class.
Don't forget subdomains.
And for the Domains/Subdomains, these are my options for Achaekek.
Domains- Death, Evil, Law, Trickery, War
Subdomains- Blood, Deception, Devil, Murder, Tactics, Thievery
The War (Tactics) subdomain is actually really, REALLY good. You can roll twice for Initiative (or make your allies do so), and pick up Combat Feats on the fly for when you need a situational one (Blind Fight, for instance).
For Archetypes I'd suggest Preacher, unless you're really attached to Teamwork feats.
Actually, Sacred Huntmaster would be pretty great. Come equipped with your own flank partner.
Preacher actually looks really good for what it does.
That set of stats works as well.
I'd already decided on being human, so that's that.
That'd bring it up to at least four archetypes on one character?
That's a record for me.
I actually would like to fit one level of Assassin in there, if only for the death attack. Is this feasible?
Would definitely need to take Ability Focus in order to compensate for the lack of assassin levels.
What would a progression of this look like?
This is getting very, very complicated.
edit: Rynjin, don't really wanna keep up with an animal companion, this character will be complicated enough as-is.
Actually, is there a way to implement an effective feinting technique into this build, to facilitate sneak attacks?
Renegadeshepard, what are some of the good teamwork feats?
Don't really know much about them; any to get me more flanks?
Death Attack is 100% garbage, especially if you're looking at a DC of like...14. There is NO point in taking that level of Assassin. In the FOUR ROUNDS (i.e. "The entire combat") it takes you to properly execute a Death Attack...which will probably be saved against, even as a full Assassin, you could have killed 2-3 guys simply by full attacking them. Seriously by 10th level Assassin, 15th total, minimum the base DC is 15. Even if you had a 30 Int most monsters would save it easily.
If you were a Slayer or Ninja you could pull it off in 2 rounds instead, and Slayer adds his Favored Target bonus to the DC, so it' slightly LESS bad but still not likely to be worth it.
Rynjin, the DC for the death attack is 10 + assassin level + Int.
So, with that one level, around 6th, assuming at least a +2 item, which I'm bound to get in this game, along with Ability Focus, makes it a DC 17.
And even if I do use invisibility to deliver it and miss, it's still a sneak attack.
It's suboptimal, I know.
But it's not nearly as bad as you seem to think.
The chance at someone failing a Fort save, which isn't strong on many of the things I'd want to death attack, and them DYING is almost too good to pass up on. I'd honestly most likely just drop one level in alchemist to pick it up, then move on.