DC 17, at 6th level.
Let's take a look at some CR 8 and 9 creatures (the ones you'll want to hit with an OHKO attack).
CR 8: Goliath Stag Beetle (Fort +12), Daughter of Urgathoa (Fort +9, also Immune, but beside the point), Ogre Mage (Fort +12), Marai Rakshasa (Fort +8).
CR 9: Aurumvorax (+14 Fort), T-Rex (+15 Fort), Nessian Warhound (+13 Fort), Spirit Naga (+8 Fort).
Of these, even the ones with a poor Fort save passes over half the time.
If you're looking at classed NPCs, a level 9 or 10 Wizard has a Fort save of +7 or 8 as well.
Meanwhile, they all have about 100 HP.
Let's roll 4 rounds of Full Attacks, against an average AC of around 22.
You're at 6th level, so +9 BaB, +5 from Dex, +2 from Mutagen, +1 from weapon, +2 Bane. -2 TWFing, -2 Power Attack.
Damage: +5 Agile (Dex), +6 Power Attack, +1 weapon, +2d6+2 Bane.
Round 2:
It's dead. 2 rounds early. And they didn't get to make a Perception check every round to make your attack impossible to complete, either.
Death Attack is HORRENDOUSLY bad. You're trading almost certain "I kill you" for almost certain "My party killed everyone while I sat in the corner staring at somebody funny for 4 rounds".
Hmm. Hadn't actually looked at the numbers.
I just wish its cool factor equaled its usefulness.
Is it mainly supposed to be an NPC class, then?
What do yo think about the Red Mantis Assassin?
Probably bad for this character, as it casts on Cha, but overall?
Does it suffer from the same problems?
And question, why did you use 3d4 for the first attack base damage, and then 2d4 for the second?
Not arguing, just curious.
The Red Mantis Assassin is SLIGHTLY better. It gets spells to carry out its job better, and some neat Su abilities.
But overall, it's still pretty bad.
If you want the flavor and don't mind shelling out the Exotic Proficiency, Sawtooth Sabres are actually REALLY good for TWFing (they count as light weapons for those purposes).
And question, why did you use 3d4 for the first attack base damage, and then 2d4 for the second?
Not arguing, just curious.
The first attack missed in the second round.
As an inquisitor of Achaekek, that was the plan.
Why d4's, though?
Back to the actual build, what feats do you recommend beyond first?
Work on getting Dex to stuff, or stick with Str?
16 isn't bad at all, plus mutagen.
d4's because Kukri.
I'd say stick with Dex the minimum required to get Improved TWFing (17) and go Str the rest of the way. Easier to boost Str for damage (you have access to things like Righteous Might and Monstrous Physique) and such.
Feats are probably going to be eaten up by TWFing for a while. TWFing, ITWFing, and Double Slice at least.
For Inquisitor I'd suggest Extended Bane and maybe Improved Monster Lore for super Knowledge.
Extra Discovery is a great Feat.
Okay, thanks for all the help.
I think I'll stop bothering you for now!
No problem. Bother me any time. =)
If you insist!
What kind of discoveries would be best?
Again, really inexperienced with both the inquisitor and the alchemist, and I'm combining both!
Crazy times shall be had.
Lessee. Some good ones:
Low level: Spontaneous Healing, Preserve Organs, Chameleon, Enhance Potion, Extend Potion, Tumor Familiar (combine with Feat "Die For Your Master"), Wings, Concentrate Poison, Lingering Spirit
Mid-Level: Greater Mutagen, Mummifcation (requires Preserve Organs), Nauseating Flesh, Dilution, Malignant Poison
High Level: Grand Mutagen, Eternal Potion (requires Extend Potion), Elixir of Life
Grand Discovery: True Mutagen (effectiveness), Eternal Youth (retiring your PC like a boss)
From there, it kinda depends how you wanna play it. I would go with something like:
2.) Spontaneous Healing
4.) Preserve Organs
6.) Wings
8.) Extend Potion
10.) Mummification
12.) Greater Mutagen
14.) Tumor Familiar (Grab Die For Your Master as a Feat)
16.) Grand Mutagen
18.) Eternal Potion
20.) Elixir of Life
Grand Discovery: True Mutagen
For a general all-rounder powerhouse. By 20th you end up with +8 Str/Dex/Con (That stacks with everything, for a -2 to mental stats), +8 Natural Armor, immunity to Cold, Paralysis, Sleep, and Nonlethal damage, teh ability to Fly, permanent 25% Fortification, a Familiar, Fast Healing 5 (limited in rounds per day), and a single 1st-3rd level spell permanently active on yourself (For example, Heroism, or Displacement).
Without any Extracts or magic items.
For a more poison based character, swap in Spontaneous Healing, Tumor Familiar, and Elixir of Life for Concentrate Poison, Sticky Poison, and Malignant Poison.
This will give you a poison that lasts on your weapon for a number of hits equal to your Int mod, with a +6 to the DC (+8 if you nab Poison Focus, +13 with a +5 Virulent weapon), no onset (so you can use some nasty poisons like Black Lotus Extract, DC 20 base, 1d6 Con, 2 save cure, but 1 minute onset), with an increased frequency.
So using all of the above with Black Lotus Extract you get a DC 33 (respectable enough) Poison added to each of your hits for at least a round or two, dealing 1d6 Con a round for 11 rounds (and every dose you whack them with increases the DC by 2, so potentially much higher than 33).
Expensive as hell, though, at 9000 gp per dose (4500 with a two lower DC and 3 round lower duration).
A more cost effective option is Giant Wasp Poison obtained through a Lesser Poisoner's Jacket (though that may interfere with the Vest of Stable Mutation to remove the mental stat penalty of your Mutagen if your GM disallows combined items), which has 2 lower DC, but same duration and deals 1d2 Dex instead (given the low Dex of enemies at high levels, this actually may be a more effective all around option, now I think of it), and only 210 gp a pop even without the jacket's 3 free doses.
I do like the idea of comboing Vivisectionist with Inquisitor. You aren't getting full-BAB, but double 6's in spellcasting is nothing to laugh up. I think one of the weaknesses is the fact that you have two 6 + Int skill classes, but I do think the class features of Inquisitor outweigh a Cleric in-terms of enjoyment if not optimization.
I also like Poison Conversion for an Alchemist, allowing you to turn poisons that are normally unusable into effective poisons for weapons or inhaled. I believe there is a rule that is something like having multiple inhaled poisons afflicting a target increases the DC by 2. I'll see if I can find a rules quote for that.
But I also like poison conversion for narrative reasons. You can do some cool things by turning a poison on you into ingested in a minute.
I do like the idea of comboing Vivisectionist with Inquisitor. You aren't getting full-BAB, but double 6's in spellcasting is nothing to laugh up. I think one of the weaknesses is the fact that you have two 6 + Int skill classes, but I do think the class features of Inquisitor outweigh a Cleric in-terms of enjoyment if not optimization
Alchemist gets 4+int on skill points.
I'm with you on the poison conversion thing, but I think I'd go for rogue(poisoner archetype) levels to gestalt with inquisitor just to keep things simpler. Daggermark poisoner for the freebie smoke bombs + inhaled, multiple dosage drow poison tricks might be nice to prestige off into after 4 or 5 levels of rogue.
I'll bang around with that on Herolab today if I get the chance and see how it shakes out.
I do like the idea of comboing Vivisectionist with Inquisitor. You aren't getting full-BAB, but double 6's in spellcasting is nothing to laugh up. I think one of the weaknesses is the fact that you have two 6 + Int skill classes, but I do think the class features of Inquisitor outweigh a Cleric in-terms of enjoyment if not optimizationAlchemist gets 4+int on skill points.
I'm with you on the poison conversion thing, but I think I'd go for rogue(poisoner archetype) levels to gestalt with inquisitor, and then maybe prestige into Daggermark poisoner for the freebie smoke bombs + inhaled, multiple dosage drow poison tricks.
I'll bang around with that on Herolab today if I get the chance and see how it shakes out.
Huh, not sure why I've always thought that alchemists got 6 + Int. I suppose that would be quite absurd if they did have 6+Int as an int-based 'caster'.
If you are going human than I would suggest a slayer/cleric instead of slayer/oracle. I would still avoid the prestige classes as they give up more than you gain. At 10th level the slayer can pick up assassinate as a advanced slayer talent which is better than the death attack of the assassin. The assassin has to spend 3 rounds of standard actions, where the slayer only has to spend one standard action so can attack 2 rounds earlier. Also the slayers capstone ability allows him to make a death attack without having to spend any rounds studying the target. While the DC for the save may seem to favor the assassin they are actually about the same. 10+10+INT is the same a s 10+(20/2) +INT. Factor in studied target and the slayer actually comes out ahead by +2 DC.
The slayer can by 10th level have greater two weapon style with a 10 DEX. Assuming you are going into assassin as early as possible you won’t get your second attack with your second weapon till 11th level and the third does not come until 20th. You can of course pick them up with normal feats, but then have to meet the prerequisites. You are also lose 2 point of studied target and don’t get quarry. That is a total of +6 to hit you just gave up.
Your sneak attack with the slayer will be 2d6 less at 20th level, but you also will not have hunters surprise. Being able to once a day you can declare a person next to you as the target. All your attacks against that person are sneak attacks even if he is not flanked or flat footed.
At 20th level you could attack a person 7 times with a bonus of +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 not including any stats spells or enchantments doing an extra 6d6+5 points of damage each hit.
Personally, I'd be considering a Cleric with the Trickery domain if you want to be an assassin. You get a lot of great spells for an assassin: invisiblity, disguise self, nondetection, confusion, time stop... I mean, come on. That's some GOLDEN material for an assassin. Oh, did I mention you can make an illusory double of yourself that lasts 1 round per cleric level? Yeah, that never hurts.
For your other class you want high BAB. Swashbuckler and Fighter would be among my first choices. I'd seriously consider Ranger as well because you're going to enjoy the 6+ skill points from that class (not to mention more skill options). Slayer, though, is probably the best choice as it lets you get sneak attack AND high BAB AND some decent abilities.
So, my suggestion is: Slayer // Cleric. I'd seriously consider taking Theologian so you can cast, depending on your choice, with no spell level increase: Extended Invisibility, Extended Time Stop (late game option, of course), Silent Invisibility, Focused Confusion, etc. It gets interesting. Then again, I advocate Theologian for a lot of things because it's so great.
Really, the only spell you won't get that you'd really, REALLY want as a Trickery cleric is Greater Invisibility. It's... really, really regrettable.
I do like the idea of comboing Vivisectionist with Inquisitor. You aren't getting full-BAB, but double 6's in spellcasting is nothing to laugh up. I think one of the weaknesses is the fact that you have two 6 + Int skill classes, but I do think the class features of Inquisitor outweigh a Cleric in-terms of enjoyment if not optimizationAlchemist gets 4+int on skill points.
I'm with you on the poison conversion thing, but I think I'd go for rogue(poisoner archetype) levels to gestalt with inquisitor just to keep things simpler. Daggermark poisoner for the freebie smoke bombs + inhaled, multiple dosage drow poison tricks might be nice to prestige off into after 4 or 5 levels of rogue.
I'll bang around with that on Herolab today if I get the chance and see how it shakes out.
Poisoner Rogue's version of Poison Conversion is way, way worse, though.
Poison Conversion: Takes 1 minute, never fails.
Master Poisoner: Takes an HOUR, and requires a Craft Alchemy check or ruins the poison.
And it offers nothing else of value that an Alchemist can't already get.
Hmm.
Is poison even worth investing in?
Seems like a whole lot of trouble for not much gain.
Not particularly, but it's an assassin-y thing.
The Alchemist is about the only class that can make it even vaguely worthwhile.
I guess it's worth a secondary focus.
Not really sure how to do that, however.
Is there a poison guide somewhere?
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Hybrid classes are awkward to gestalt, in my experience, because they're just a worse version of a gestalt of the two parent classes. Warpriest can be done just as well or better by gestalting cleric with anything full BAB; the higher level of casting gives you better buffs, which will generally make up for the class features you miss. Swashbuckler in particular would constantly compete with warpriest for swift/immediate actions.
Having played a gestalt Red Mantis Assassin a while back, I'd recommend ranger/cleric. The deity-specific 'Faithful' combat styles are really nice, and, surprise, Achaekek has one! With cleric granting sawtooth sabre proficiency and ranger giving you free TWF, you can get into the prestige with only two 'real' feats expended, and you won't necessarily need to invest heavily in dexterity (since ranger ignores prerequisites) or wisdom (since you aren't worried about spell DCs). That lets you focus on building up strength and charisma, so your channeling and prayer attack will have strong DCs.
i disagree specifically in the case of warpriest, which is awesome in gestalt espically when tacked on to something melee
The divine weapon ability they have is unique, and they get a similar ability with their armor, their spellcasting, while generally inforior to a cleric's is good at buffsThat being said,
I'd go for one of these
warpriest/cutthroat soulknife
Warpriest/inquisitor
Warpriest/spelless ranger 2 weapon fighting path
oracle/swashbuckler
alchemist (vivisectionist)/something divine *shrug*
For the warpriest, I can definitely see why I would want to use it.
First, both the war and trickery blessings, which I gain access to through my deity, are fantastic.
Second, free weapon focus is always nice, and sacred weapon plus fervor is just awesome.
You're highly underestimating the warpriest for this build.
Be a Ninja / Enlightened Paladin.
Fantasic defenses (immunities, saves, stealth)
Fantastic offenses (Full BAB, sneak attack)
Aura of Perfection on a class that lives on the edge of the blade... tons of roleplay there too.
Charisma is basically your only focus. Take Improved Eldritch Heritage for the Shadow Bloodline and it's basically a wrap.
Unfortunately, Achaekek is Lawful Evil, and not a paladin-funding god.
Where does this Enlightened Paladin come from?
Not Paizo, I know that.
Unfortunately, Achaekek is Lawful Evil, and not a paladin-funding god.
Where does this Enlightened Paladin come from?
Not Paizo, I know that.
Wow, Rynjin, it didn't come up on Nethys.
My point stands, not taking paladin.
Renegadeshepard, you can't argue that both domains, Trickery and War (which I find lacking), to be more powerful and then "fix" the feat problem by trading one of those domains out.
Yes, I get less spellcasting, but alchemist will help with that part.
Also, on blessings, Trickery as a blessing is equal to the base Trickery domain power. So that part is equal. I do miss out on the extra spells, but again. Not that big of a deal.
The War blessing is just all around more versatile.
The base War domain power is just terrible at low levels because it's a 1/2 boost, while at higher levels I have better things to use my standards for.
Using subdomains does alleviate the problem somewhat, as Acheaekek grants both Deception and Tactics, which are strict upgrades.
But, still. Warpriest has its place here.
Warpriest with Trickery is NOT bad, but that greater invisibility only lasts so long. The spells from the domain are just better.
The Cleric makes a better Warpriest than a Warpriest to be quite honest.
Sticking with Warpriest is fine, and it is a good class. I'd just personally take the Cleric in this case.
Okay, with the Cleric.
Which domains?
Which spells from each?
Any archetypes, or straight cleric?
Also, Ecclesitheurge is terrible for this concept.
Can't cast or use powers in armor or shield?
No thanks.
Another alternative would be a Divine Tracker ranger combined with a Cleric. This way he gets both domains and blessings. He gives up hunters bond, and wild empathy of the ranger for the blessings of a war priest.
He can still get the combat styles of the ranger for two weapon fighting. He will be giving up sneak attack, but will get favored enemy.
Hmm.
Not too keen on the ranger part.
Wanna keep the alchemist in there as well.
It's looking too good.
Okay, with the Cleric.
Which domains?
Which spells from each?
Any archetypes, or straight cleric?
Trickery is the one I'd take for SURE, as I said earlier. As others have said, Tactics is an amazing subdomain. Destruction is a nice domain thanks to, you know, murdering things in the face harder; and since you'll be getting the jump as an assassin the Aura of Destruction should actually work to your benefit in several situations. [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/death-domain/murder]Murder is a domain I've never used, but it's sorely tempting to try it; bleed damage like that could quickly put an enemy out of commission or force them to chug a potion. Radiation gives you an interesting power that you could use when preparing an ambush. Make a rock glowy, toss it at the floor to make some noise; enemy goes to investigate and they become sickened. There's plenty of other good domains, too. Travel is a personal favorite because everyone loves movement speed bonuses. Finally, Animal gives you an animal companion that scales with you entirely. Pick the right companion and you've just gotten a huge boon.
Fun thing to do: Destructive Smite from this domain + Ferocious Strike from this domain. You are now a cleric that deals damage equal to your cleric level with melee attacks.
Alternatively, taking the Spellkiller Inquisition in place of a domain could be an interesting choice if you're going up against arcane spellcasters. Take out a guy, and now you can Stagger a mage. Plus: bonus feat. Also, a couple inquisitions essentially give you Critical Focus for free without giving you the feat itself - for instance, this inquisition. And you
Theologian is worth considering, but do note (as I recently learned) you only get +2 caster level for domain POWERS, not your spells. That said, you'll still get the ability to apply one of many metamagics to one of those domain spells for free.
The base cleric is pretty good IMO.
Spells are something the true cleric gurus should tell you about. I can give advice, but not as good advice as others.
Hmm.
What about cleric/warpriest (cult leader)?
I get the sneak attack from warpriest, while full casting from cleric.
And domains plus blessings.
Hmm.
What about cleric/warpriest (cult leader)?
I get the sneak attack from warpriest, while full casting from cleric.
And domains plus blessings.
That's... really interesting. Hm. You get a LOT of spells, too, and honestly the only thing you're lacking at that point is a lot of skill points.
The skill points issue could be annoying, though. You're looking at 2 + INT modifier per level, another +1 if you're a human. Assuming you have 12 or 14 INT (about as high as I'd go on a Cleric or Warpriest, usually), that's either 4 or 5 skill points per level.
If you're fine with that, I think you'll be fine.
Slayer would still be my first choice, as said. You want the high BAB anyway.
EDIT: Oh, Cult Leader has 4+ skill points per level. Worth consideration, definitely.
Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it until recently.
Maybe even take crusader for the cleric, keeping the Tactics domain.
Warpriest, with trickery and war.
The "cult leader" part would definitely fit, as he's 'founding his own cult' or whatever.
That sounds like a really fun combination. You have so many spells, so the lower number of spells per day wouldn't hurt.
If you roll with that, let me know how it plays. My only concern now is your medium BAB, but I think you'll survive.
Well, due to the crazy-powerful rules of this gestalt game, I have a +6 BAB and 5 "levels of spells" to play around with.
So, not really worried about that.
Now, that doesn't mean that the monsters won't be getting insane boosts as well, but still.
Should be fun!
I'd go for an Inquisitor Monk combo.
Does it still count as assassination if you swoop in on a giant bird and impale your target multiple times with a lance before swooping away? Because a Sacred Huntsmaster || Sohei combo is insane.
Otherwise, you could be a Dwarf Witch Hunter Inquisitor and a Martial Artist Monk to do away with needless restrictions and assassinate bwitches. Definitely going to be pretty hard to put you down.
Another fun and cool combination is a Gunslinger Inquisitor. What kills people better than guns? To say nothing of d10 HD, full bab and perfect saves. This gets even better once you qualify for the Grand marshal prestige class, which is already somewhat of a gunslinger/inquisiotr fusion anyway. Plus 10 levels in that class and 2 in Inquisitor gives you tons of Initiative.
I do like the idea of comboing Vivisectionist with Inquisitor. You aren't getting full-BAB, but double 6's in spellcasting is nothing to laugh up. I think one of the weaknesses is the fact that you have two 6 + Int skill classes, but I do think the class features of Inquisitor outweigh a Cleric in-terms of enjoyment if not optimizationAlchemist gets 4+int on skill points.
I'm with you on the poison conversion thing, but I think I'd go for rogue(poisoner archetype) levels to gestalt with inquisitor just to keep things simpler. Daggermark poisoner for the freebie smoke bombs + inhaled, multiple dosage drow poison tricks might be nice to prestige off into after 4 or 5 levels of rogue.
I'll bang around with that on Herolab today if I get the chance and see how it shakes out.
Poisoner Rogue's version of Poison Conversion is way, way worse, though.
Poison Conversion: Takes 1 minute, never fails.
Master Poisoner: Takes an HOUR, and requires a Craft Alchemy check or ruins the poison.
And it offers nothing else of value that an Alchemist can't already get.
Agreed on all points. Alchemists are pretty sweet in general.
I frequently play in lower level gestalt games, so having a trick I can use for most of the campaign beats one that's more of a capstone that I might never see. Being "Mr. Skill Points" is kinda cool, too, but the inquisitor is already most of the way there.
Even when I was messing around with the proposed rogue build in Herolab, I was dissatisfied with the results. I think I'd just buy the converted gunk from someone else and eat the cost if I were in a game where I could reliably do that.