Pornography: Destructive Entertainment? Or Good Times? Somewhere in Between?


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So pornography tends to be polarizing topic, but it is a decently big part of our society's entertainment (billion dollar industry)so I thought perhaps we could have an at least semi-flameless conversation about it.

I believe in free speech and that adults should be able to enjoy erotic material without getting flak for it.

Still, pornography has been shown to have some influence in causing a few issues. Younger viewers often have their expectations of sexuality influenced by pornography (Is my body suppose to be look like that? Is that the most pleasurable way to have sex? What the hell is this 'foreplay' real women are expecting me to do? Am I suppose to do what those women in the videos do?)

Halfway decent sexual education for teenagers would fix the above pretty easily but unfortunately in the U.S. we rarely have that.

Enough consumption of pornography has been shown to cause ED in some men with no physical problems when dealing with a real partner.

Though most women in the industry are willing(and even happy) participants, coercion and exploitation are still common and after their careers in the industry are over adult film actors often find themselves treated badly by society.

It is a complex issue and I have only scratched the surface in this opening post, but I am interested in seeing what you guys think.


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During the late 80s, early 90s, it was possible to make, and make a lot of money from, full-length porn flicks with stars, music, makeup and scenery, and some even tried at plot. That style of it went tata with the advent of the internet. A number of the more well-known stars tried their hands in non-porn movies. The internet brought with it porn sites in an always-expanding ensemble, and it was estimated that 50% of internet activity consisted of porn at one point. There were regulations put on porn which changed the game, like the (?) 2257 regulation where all porn actors had to be traceable. At the same time, porn was democratized by people all over who put up clips on places like RedTube and YouPorn. At one point, it seemed like the classic porn industry was dying, outcompeted by short amateur clips. But of course, it just adapted. And when it did, attention was turned to a much wider variety of sex than merely the classic porn-style intercourse. Other people started making feminist porn, eco-porn, and so on. Porn has also been making ouvertures into other media, such as erotic and explicit music videos.

Porn is not what it used to be.

Another thing that has happened is that actors now actively try to build a closer connection to their fans than they could before, through social media, through adult entertainment conventions, and so on. If you are curious about the conditions of making porn today (within the bigger studios at least), you could do worse than seeking out a few blogs of actors working there. As I understand it, the huge money that some could get is pretty much gone. The demands for silicone implants are at least not as absolute today. And, there is a deeply seated frustration with the government and various groups who want to save porn actors from themselves. Above all, it is very difficult for porn actors to get listened to by anyone relevant.

Problems remain, of course. Much is different, but there is still prejudice against porn actors. Dealing with that, and providing good sex ed as a matter of course, would matter.

Edit: One truly fascinating correlation is that the more conservative and wealthy a neighbourhood is, the more porn it consumes. The wealthiest areas of Salt Lake City top the list for America, IIRC.


Porn is good, porn is great, let's watch some and {rhymes with great}.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with enjoying porn in moderation, just like most things in this world.

As you said, sex ed in the US needs improvement, but that isn't the fault of the porn industry. The blame there lies on the education system.

The ED problem usually only develops with over-indulgence. As I said, moderation.

I can't speak as to the treatment of those in the industry. It's a problem I haven't an answer to.


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The only issues I have with porn are related to creation/consumption. "Professional" pornography is overwhealmingly created for male consumption and is a major driving force in what young males expect their sexual partners to do. Ie. Submit to the power fantasy and debase themselves. The expectation of the "money shot" is so prolific that no modern porno would leave it out. The act itself is the personification of male dominance and conditioning young men to expect their partners to submit to it is rather disturbing.

The other part of creation/consumption that is fairly disturbing is the question of consent. Both consent to creation AND consent to distribution. Revenge porn and incidents like gamer gate and the fappening are truly alarming conditions in the world of "modern porn." Questions related to legality and liability must be settled (and hopefully with very sharp teeth,) or porn will continue to advance the rape culture of the western world.


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Sissyl wrote:

During the late 80s, early 90s, it was possible to make, and make a lot of money from, full-length porn flicks with stars, music, makeup and scenery, and some even tried at plot. That style of it went tata with the advent of the internet. A number of the more well-known stars tried their hands in non-porn movies. The internet brought with it porn sites in an always-expanding ensemble, and it was estimated that 50% of internet activity consisted of porn at one point. There were regulations put on porn which changed the game, like the (?) 2257 regulation where all porn actors had to be traceable. At the same time, porn was democratized by people all over who put up clips on places like RedTube and YouPorn. At one point, it seemed like the classic porn industry was dying, outcompeted by short amateur clips. But of course, it just adapted. And when it did, attention was turned to a much wider variety of sex than merely the classic porn-style intercourse. Other people started making feminist porn, eco-porn, and so on. Porn has also been making ouvertures into other media, such as erotic and explicit music videos.

Porn is not what it used to be.

Another thing that has happened is that actors now actively try to build a closer connection to their fans than they could before, through social media, through adult entertainment conventions, and so on. If you are curious about the conditions of making porn today (within the bigger studios at least), you could do worse than seeking out a few blogs of actors working there. As I understand it, the huge money that some could get is pretty much gone. The demands for silicone implants are at least not as absolute today. And, there is a deeply seated frustration with the government and various groups who want to save porn actors from themselves. Above all, it is very difficult for porn actors to get listened to by anyone relevant.

Problems remain, of course. Much is different, but there is still prejudice against porn actors. Dealing with that, and providing good sex ed...

well stated.


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BigDTBone wrote:

The only issues I have with porn are related to creation/consumption. "Professional" pornography is overwhealmingly created for male consumption and is a major driving force in what young males expect their sexual partners to do. Ie. Submit to the power fantasy and debase themselves. The expectation of the "money shot" is so prolific that no modern porno would leave it out. The act itself is the personification of male dominance and conditioning young men to expect their partners to submit to it is rather disturbing.

The other part of creation/consumption that is fairly disturbing is the question of consent. Both consent to creation AND consent to distribution. Revenge porn and incidents like gamer gate and the fappening are truly alarming conditions in the world of "modern porn." Questions related to legality and liability must be settled (and hopefully with very sharp teeth,) or porn will continue to advance the rape culture of the western world.

this is what vintage porn is for.


Revenge porn and misogynistic harassment can be dealt with under existing laws - moving into a digital age has, unfortunately, made that sort of thing much too easy to do, but it's not as if similarly unpleasant things didn't happen in ye olden times

Porn bears the same relationship to actual sex as Rambo movies do to actual combat. It will set up unrealistic expectations and cause all sorts of other problems, of course, if people persist in seeing it as a documentary rather than something done by professional actors for their entertainment.

Does it make young men who wouldn't normally dream of doing that sort of thing debase their partners? Not sure; it's not as if I've asked (m)any teenage/twentysomething young women what their experience has been, but it does fall into the old 'brutish, cackling he-beast vs. delicate shrinking virgin' cliche, which makes me wonder.

I'm also suspicious of the thing that gets bandied about regarding regular porno use making you automatically wanting to seek out harder and harder images in order to get the same buzz. Given the amazing number of triggers that can get a man hot and bothered, many of which are oddly innocuous, why would you need to? Not been my experience, anyway, but that's not evidence, of course.


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Limeylongears wrote:
delicate shrinking virgin' cliche.

The idea that the alternative to taking the "money shot" is being a "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche," is pretty indicative of the line of thinking I find objectionable.

Why can't a woman be self-assured, experienced, AND demand her partner treat her as an equal? Why should she have to demand it? Why isn't that the assumption going in?

What part of being treated as an equal brings out the "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche?"


Freehold DM wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

The only issues I have with porn are related to creation/consumption. "Professional" pornography is overwhealmingly created for male consumption and is a major driving force in what young males expect their sexual partners to do. Ie. Submit to the power fantasy and debase themselves. The expectation of the "money shot" is so prolific that no modern porno would leave it out. The act itself is the personification of male dominance and conditioning young men to expect their partners to submit to it is rather disturbing.

The other part of creation/consumption that is fairly disturbing is the question of consent. Both consent to creation AND consent to distribution. Revenge porn and incidents like gamer gate and the fappening are truly alarming conditions in the world of "modern porn." Questions related to legality and liability must be settled (and hopefully with very sharp teeth,) or porn will continue to advance the rape culture of the western world.

this is what vintage porn is for.

I almost added another paragraph to my post with that very point.


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Meh. I don't get it.

Quote:
Still, pornography has been shown to have some influence in causing a few issues. Younger viewers often have their expectations of sexuality influenced by pornography (Is my body suppose to be look like that? Is that the most pleasurable way to have sex? What the hell is this 'foreplay' real women are expecting me to do? Am I suppose to do what those women in the videos do?)

These sorts of claims (like ones made about our own hobby for instance) are vague and tenuous enough that I have trouble believing them, much less to the point of interfering with someones first amendment rights.

If young people are confused well the solution would be a better more realistic porn video


BigNorseWolf wrote:
If young people are confused well the solution would be a better more realistic porn video

I agree! (Though, technically, I suppose that would be erotica...)


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Tacticslion wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
If young people are confused well the solution would be a better more realistic porn video
I agree! (Though, technically, I suppose that would be erotica...)

If you expect romeo to be spouting epic poetry while thinking about his first time you have less realistic expectations than the kid who thinks his pizza delivery job is the way to tons of sex. :)


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
If young people are confused well the solution would be a better more realistic porn video
I agree! (Though, technically, I suppose that would be erotica...)
If you expect romeo to be spouting epic poetry while thinking about his first time you have less realistic expectations than the kid who thinks his pizza delivery job is the way to tons of sex. :)

Spouting? Heeeeeeeeeck no. If you've actually read what they went through and some of the things they were saying? Hecka-realistic and relatable... for an epic poem.

This is the same as saying any movie or game or anything else is 'realistic' - there are real elements to it that can be grasped, related, and understood.

Romeo and Juliet, on the other hand, is also realistic for a production of its kind. I hated that one, however, as, unlike the Song of Songs, it's not uplifting in the slightest, and its protagonists are all stupid. But I tend to feel that way about Shakespeare's protagonists anyway... (comes with the territory of tragedies, one supposes, which is why I don't like them).


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
If young people are confused well the solution would be a better more realistic porn video
I agree! (Though, technically, I suppose that would be erotica...)
If you expect romeo to be spouting epic poetry while thinking about his first time you have less realistic expectations than the kid who thinks his pizza delivery job is the way to tons of sex. :)

my mother's refusal to sign the necessary paperwork in high school for drivers ed kept me from getting my license early.

I wanted to be a pizza delivery guy so bad.


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BigDTBone wrote:
Limeylongears wrote:
delicate shrinking virgin' cliche.

The idea that the alternative to taking the "money shot" is being a "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche," is pretty indicative of the line of thinking I find objectionable.

Why can't a woman be self-assured, experienced, AND demand her partner treat her as an equal? Why should she have to demand it? Why isn't that the assumption going in?

What part of being treated as an equal brings out the "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche?"

iirc, the fabled money shot comes out of the response to the era of porn Sissyl was talking about earlier, which was heavier on plot and lighter on explicit sex acts- stuff one could readily find on Cinemax and or HBO at about 3 am.

It's not an either/or thing,and setting it up to be one is a road to buckets full of tears.


I would also encourage interested parties to check out the Lovelace film of a few years back. Well acted, and a lot of information detailing both sides of that story.


Freehold DM wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Limeylongears wrote:
delicate shrinking virgin' cliche.

The idea that the alternative to taking the "money shot" is being a "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche," is pretty indicative of the line of thinking I find objectionable.

Why can't a woman be self-assured, experienced, AND demand her partner treat her as an equal? Why should she have to demand it? Why isn't that the assumption going in?

What part of being treated as an equal brings out the "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche?"

iirc, the fabled money shot comes out of the response to the era of porn Sissyl was talking about earlier, which was heavier on plot and lighter on explicit sex acts- stuff one could readily find on Cinemax and or HBO at about 3 am.

It's not an either/or thing,and setting it up to be one is a road to buckets full of tears.

I agree completely. I didn't set up the dichotomy, a poster responded to an open ended statement of mine and framed it. It is amazing how quickly the slut/prude paradigm forms in conversations like these... Almost as if they encourage it... Almost.

Edit: there has also been an evolution in what the industry refers to as "the money shot." In the early years it was simply the actors making the O-face so that the audience knew they were done. In recent years it has come to mean something more specific.

spoilered for NSFW:
The male ejaculating on the face of the female.
It is the later that I am referencing in my statements above.


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I'm fine with porn in most aspects, although I certainly think it needs a lot of work. The standard porn is...pretty crap. The fact they have to pause mid way to get genital make up applied really says it all. From what I've been told, actually making porn isn't much fun, and that knowledge makes it fairly meh for me.

There's also the problem that at least some porn has the same problems as prostitution with coerced, drugged and even forced women. It's hard to get a boner watching something when you know the people involved might only be performing because they're hooked on something.

And there is the whole issues with how it's portrayed, studies showing guys who watch porn identifying women as objects rather than people, etc, etc.

Between it all I find most porn as erotic as a lamp post, most of the time.


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BigDTBone wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Limeylongears wrote:
delicate shrinking virgin' cliche.

The idea that the alternative to taking the "money shot" is being a "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche," is pretty indicative of the line of thinking I find objectionable.

Why can't a woman be self-assured, experienced, AND demand her partner treat her as an equal? Why should she have to demand it? Why isn't that the assumption going in?

What part of being treated as an equal brings out the "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche?"

iirc, the fabled money shot comes out of the response to the era of porn Sissyl was talking about earlier, which was heavier on plot and lighter on explicit sex acts- stuff one could readily find on Cinemax and or HBO at about 3 am.

It's not an either/or thing,and setting it up to be one is a road to buckets full of tears.

I agree completely. I didn't set up the dichotomy, a poster responded to an open ended statement of mine and framed it. It is amazing how quickly the slut/prude paradigm forms in conversations like these... Almost as if they encourage it... Almost.

Edit: there has also been an evolution in what the industry refers to as "the money shot." In the early years it was simply the actors making the O-face so that the audience knew they were done. In recent years it has come to mean something more specific. ** spoiler omitted **It is the later that I am referencing in my statements above.

indeed, there is more than one type of money shot when one looks at the history of adult entertainment.

Spoiler:
The o-face was very early-mid 70s, with a switch up to penetration shots in the late 70s-80s. Ejaculation upon a partner,regardless of location was 80s to early 90s fare, where- if stories are to be believed- a switch to ejaculating as far away from the sex organ as possible to avoid possible insemination lead to the current one we know and have a complicated relationship with.

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JonGarrett wrote:


Between it all I find most porn as erotic as a lamp post, most of the time.

That is one hot lamp post.


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Wait a minute! This is the internet. Since when is having a resonable and thoughtful conversation alowed? I want mob viloence! I want the peasants up in arms! I want riots and destruction! Where is all of that?

Spoiler:
I am very pleased to see the level of maturity here. Thanks!


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I demand satisfaction! ~thinks~ Humn. Maybe this is the wrong thread to be saying that. ~slinks away~

Liberty's Edge

Sharoth wrote:

Wait a minute! This is the internet. Since when is having a resonable and thoughtful conversation alowed? I want mob viloence! I want the peasants up in arms! I want riots and destruction! Where is all of that?

** spoiler omitted **

USENET

Or, for the drearily seriously minded:

YouTube comments.


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Freehold DM wrote:
JonGarrett wrote:


Between it all I find most porn as erotic as a lamp post, most of the time.

That is one hot lamp post.

Taking Ikea errotica to its literal extreme...


BigDTBone wrote:
Limeylongears wrote:
delicate shrinking virgin' cliche.

The idea that the alternative to taking the "money shot" is being a "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche," is pretty indicative of the line of thinking I find objectionable.

Why can't a woman be self-assured, experienced, AND demand her partner treat her as an equal? Why should she have to demand it? Why isn't that the assumption going in?

What part of being treated as an equal brings out the "delicate shrinking virgin' cliche?"

Obviously I wasn't making myself clear. All I was referring to was the old (19th century? Pre 19th century? Non existent outside Queen Victoria's brain?) stereotypes of male and female sexual behaviour - I was in no way counter-posing 'taking the money shot' and being a delicate shrinking virgin or saying wanting to be treated with respect makes you frigid, somehow.

I shall now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion about sexy street furniture and Orgasms Through the Ages


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Meh. I don't get it.

Quote:
Still, pornography has been shown to have some influence in causing a few issues. Younger viewers often have their expectations of sexuality influenced by pornography (Is my body suppose to be look like that? Is that the most pleasurable way to have sex? What the hell is this 'foreplay' real women are expecting me to do? Am I suppose to do what those women in the videos do?)

These sorts of claims (like ones made about our own hobby for instance) are vague and tenuous enough that I have trouble believing them, much less to the point of interfering with someones first amendment rights.

If young people are confused well the solution would be a better more realistic porn video

I understand if you don't take the claims seriously without more specifics and evidence, fair enough.

I am not suggesting interfering with first amendment rights though, only talking about what I see as some of the issues with pornography(at least in its current form)


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
JonGarrett wrote:


Between it all I find most porn as erotic as a lamp post, most of the time.

That is one hot lamp post.
Taking Ikea errotica to its literal extreme...

good god man, you linked that vile website within the confines of a conversation about porn? First amendment or no, have some good taste!


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@-Sissyl, I understand the evolution of porn, though the only pornstar blog I follow is April O'Neil's (Really NSFW.)

I also agree sex workers need to be the primary voice in declaring what it is they need and it is annoying they often get ignored, even by supposed allies, though I will point out the ones being coerced are prolly not in a position to do so anyway.


Also, the vanishing money for adult actors has pushed many of them into more traditional prostitution while using their videos to spark interest and let them charge higher prices.

Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, as apparently they can charge more than twice what they can get for a video while putting significantly less work into it.


Yuugasa wrote:

Also, the vanishing money for adult actors has pushed many of them into more traditional prostitution while using their videos to spark interest and let them charge higher prices.

Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, as apparently they can charge more than twice what they can get for a video while putting significantly less work into it.

That did remind me of another set of issues in the current industry. The pay gap between men and women is staggering (much worse than 73/100, except for same sex which is reversed) and pay difference between actors of color and white actors is also very large.

Grand Lodge

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Ivan Rûski wrote:

Porn is good, porn is great, let's watch some and {rhymes with great}.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with enjoying porn in moderation, just like most things in this world.

As you said, sex ed in the US needs improvement, but that isn't the fault of the porn industry. The blame there lies on the education system.

The ED problem usually only develops with over-indulgence. As I said, moderation.

I can't speak as to the treatment of those in the industry. It's a problem I haven't an answer to.

The education system is to blamed only to the extent that it is shackled to the restrictions laid upon it by the prurient nature of our Calvinist-influenced culture. We do live in a country after all where Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" during a Super Bowl halftime performance actually triggered an emergency session of Congress. to put down new rulings on decency enforcement.

Sex Education outside of abstinence counseling is routinely attacked by fundamentalist religious elements who insist that it is a gateway to youth promiscuity, so lets not put blame on education while ignoring the greater context in which the education system operates in.

Grand Lodge

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Yuugasa wrote:

@-Sissyl, I understand the evolution of porn, though the only pornstar blog I follow is April O'Neil's (Really NSFW.)

I also agree sex workers need to be the primary voice in declaring what it is they need and it is annoying they often get ignored, even by supposed allies, though I will point out the ones being coerced are prolly not in a position to do so anyway.

The problem is that socially, sex workers are treated much like the way Untouchables are in India. While the product they provide may be desired by the consumers, society overall considers them to be pretty close to trash on the social level.

Has to how you titled the question, I'm not particularly fond of the all too common approach of phrasing social issues as a choice between two extreme opposites. It only serves to polarize and dangerously simplify the issue. The issue with porn is tied inextricably to the greater issues and attitudes of our society in general, you can't solve the problems connected with the industry unless those greater social issues it's connected to are addressed as well, mainly women and minority rights in this country.


LazarX wrote:

The problem is that socially, sex workers are treated much like the way Untouchables are in India. While the product they provide may be desired by the consumers, society overall considers them to be pretty close to trash on the social level.

Has to how you titled the question, I'm not particularly fond of the all too common approach of phrasing social issues as a choice between two extreme opposites. It only serves to polarize and dangerously simplify the issue. The issue with porn is tied inextricably to the greater issues and attitudes of our society in general, you can't solve the problems connected with the industry unless those greater social issues it's connected to are addressed as well, mainly women and minority rights in this country.

I know, even the murder of sex workers is sometimes almost ignored by the police, doubly so if they are people of color.

Though the reason they can ignore it is because for the most part few other people care either.

I see, how would you have titled the thread? Assuming it was a subject you wanted to discuss.


Pornography: Destructive Entertainment? Or Good Times? Somewhere in Between?

With barely a mention of the drugs involved in the industry (so far) I would go with Destructive Entertainment.

With entertainment having a strongly YMMV element to it.

And picking up BigDTBones last point:
The fact that there is a huge pay disparity says something about the system itself, no?


Well, Quark, that's the thing: I will gladly avail myself of pornography for the sake of entertainment, but would never, ever enter into it as a career. Make of that what you will.


BigDTBone wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

Also, the vanishing money for adult actors has pushed many of them into more traditional prostitution while using their videos to spark interest and let them charge higher prices.

Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, as apparently they can charge more than twice what they can get for a video while putting significantly less work into it.

That did remind me of another set of issues in the current industry. The pay gap between men and women is staggering (much worse than 73/100, except for same sex which is reversed) and pay difference between actors of color and white actors is also very large.

last I checked, women were making more, provided they we'd not attached at the hip to a certain company in a poor contact. My info may be out of date.

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LazarX wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

@-Sissyl, I understand the evolution of porn, though the only pornstar blog I follow is April O'Neil's (Really NSFW.)

I also agree sex workers need to be the primary voice in declaring what it is they need and it is annoying they often get ignored, even by supposed allies, though I will point out the ones being coerced are prolly not in a position to do so anyway.

The problem is that socially, sex workers are treated much like the way Untouchables are in India. While the product they provide may be desired by the consumers, society overall considers them to be pretty close to trash on the social level.

Has to how you titled the question, I'm not particularly fond of the all too common approach of phrasing social issues as a choice between two extreme opposites. It only serves to polarize and dangerously simplify the issue. The issue with porn is tied inextricably to the greater issues and attitudes of our society in general, you can't solve the problems connected with the industry unless those greater social issues it's connected to are addressed as well, mainly women and minority rights in this country.

Bolded for emphasis.

Basically, this is an issue of an especially exploitative industry (of its workers), and the most important voices to seek out and listen to are sex workers.

That said, there are a couple of porn companies that emphasize consent, safety, and egalitarian treatment of their performers. It's extremely difficult for them to get a foothold, though, as their model relies on people being willing to pay a few bucks for ethical porn instead of watching it for free--and those people exist! But they have other problems, like having to deal with extravagant dues to credit card companies so they can get paid, banks being unwilling to deal with porn companies and give them loans at reasonable rates (or at all), and the shame associated with watching porn that causes a high rate of payment cancellation (the exemplary situation being that someone pays for porn with their CC, and claims that it was a "false" charge or that their CC was stolen or some such if their partner finds the porn charge on the CC bill).

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Freehold DM wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

Also, the vanishing money for adult actors has pushed many of them into more traditional prostitution while using their videos to spark interest and let them charge higher prices.

Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, as apparently they can charge more than twice what they can get for a video while putting significantly less work into it.

That did remind me of another set of issues in the current industry. The pay gap between men and women is staggering (much worse than 73/100, except for same sex which is reversed) and pay difference between actors of color and white actors is also very large.
last I checked, women were making more, provided they we'd not attached at the hip to a certain company in a poor contact. My info may be out of date.

Often the payment they receive is far less than what they are promised, especially if they fail to perform certain acts which are too painful, or things they are asked to perform even though they have explicit lists of "things I won't do," which the creators flagrantly dismiss, making performers choose between getting paid and doings things they don't want to with people they don't want to.


mechaPoet wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

Also, the vanishing money for adult actors has pushed many of them into more traditional prostitution while using their videos to spark interest and let them charge higher prices.

Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, as apparently they can charge more than twice what they can get for a video while putting significantly less work into it.

That did remind me of another set of issues in the current industry. The pay gap between men and women is staggering (much worse than 73/100, except for same sex which is reversed) and pay difference between actors of color and white actors is also very large.
last I checked, women were making more, provided they we'd not attached at the hip to a certain company in a poor contact. My info may be out of date.
Often the payment they receive is far less than what they are promised, especially if they fail to perform certain acts which are too painful, or things they are asked to perform even though they have explicit lists of "things I won't do," which the creators flagrantly dismiss, making performers choose between getting paid and doings things they don't want to with people they don't want to.

hm. This flies in the face of what I learned hanging with more than a few folks less than a year ago. From what I discussed with them, developers and producers who do this don't stay in business for long, although it can take some time for bad behavior to come to light. Still, maybe the independent/diy/on demand circuit is the way to go, as many people are finding out.

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Well, that's just what I know from performer testimony. I think one of the problems is that even if the producers are ousted after pulling this, it's still fairly common because the regulation isn't well enforced. Pretty sure I'm talking about the US scene, though, and I don't know how it is other places. I'm willing to bet most places that porn comes from don't generally value the actual lives of sex workers as much as other people's.

Grand Lodge

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Yuugasa wrote:
LazarX wrote:

The problem is that socially, sex workers are treated much like the way Untouchables are in India. While the product they provide may be desired by the consumers, society overall considers them to be pretty close to trash on the social level.

Has to how you titled the question, I'm not particularly fond of the all too common approach of phrasing social issues as a choice between two extreme opposites. It only serves to polarize and dangerously simplify the issue. The issue with porn is tied inextricably to the greater issues and attitudes of our society in general, you can't solve the problems connected with the industry unless those greater social issues it's connected to are addressed as well, mainly women and minority rights in this country.

I know, even the murder of sex workers is sometimes almost ignored by the police, doubly so if they are people of color.

Though the reason they can ignore it is because for the most part few other people care either.

I see, how would you have titled the thread? Assuming it was a subject you wanted to discuss.

It's not an easy question to answer, but I'll give it a swack.

After a bit of thought, the only thing that comes up to me would be... Pornography: Your thoughts.


LazarX wrote:


It's not an easy question to answer, but I'll give it a swack.

After a bit of thought, the only thing that comes up to me would be... Pornography: Your thoughts.

Makes sense, I prolly could have gone with a less flamboyant title.


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Limeylongears wrote:
Revenge porn and misogynistic harassment can be dealt with under existing laws - moving into a digital age has, unfortunately, made that sort of thing much too easy to do, but it's not as if similarly unpleasant things didn't happen in ye olden times

This is not actually the case. In many parts of the U.S. for example, if a woman voluntarily sends sexual pictures to another person, the person can distribute then as they see fit, and the woman will have no legal recourse unless they are used for commercial purposes.

The idea that there are (widedpread) legal protections is a common misconception, right up there with the idea that existing anti-discrimination laws protect transpeople.


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I find it disconcerting that there's a disconnect between prostitution and pornography in the eyes of the law. Whether they are illegal or legal, they should be one and the same...you're being paid to have sex. Whether a camera is filming that fact or not is irrelevant.

I understand the loophole is the person paying the "performer" is not (usually) the one actually going about with the sex, but that's ridiculous. If one person buys his friend a half and half for his birthday, he's going to jail in almost every state, but if he takes a camera out and films it, well, no worries there.

Other arguments have been that they're just playing the part of someone grinding genitals, you know, acting. First off, many pornos have a plot of "fade from black - two people are banging". It's not the entirety of it, but it's a big enough chunk that such an argument doesn't make sense. Secondly, even if the "actor" is pretending to enjoy themselves, there are prostitutes that do that too...And in both cases the slippery action is real.

I honestly don't know why every person soliciting a prostitute doesn't add the caveat "...And I wanna tape this and put it online," just in case it's an undercover cop.

But then I've never filmed a porn or hired a prostitute, so I may be a little uninformed in regard to the...legal specifications.

I'm not even going to bother to make my opinion as to whether it should be legal or not a point here; I'm simply saying it's f***ing ridiculous (pun intended) that they're not the same thing in the eyes of the law.


Exact treatment and conditions are going to vary wildly. Much of American porn is probably better than it used to be. Many people still suffer in it even so, of course. A few reasons are STDs, prejudice, and losing one's career due to age. Like most sports careers, you had better be ready for other ways of turning a buck before you're 40, but that puts a number of demands on your time before that point.

Porn actors and sex workers are seen as "political victims", people you can build a political career on, and politicians do all they can to marginalize them. The truth is, there are many of these "victims" who are very smart and quite impressive people. They would do great on TV... but are kept away from there, from what I understand. As soon as an interview about the phenomena here is needed, the studios turn to politicians.

Let me give you an example. The Swedish prostituion law. It was a new idea. Let's not mess with the prostitutes, but keep buying sex illegal - not selling. Swedish politicians wanted this, and pushed it through. No evaluation was done before or after. A rare few sentences were given. There were a number of different protests, and eventually the politicians decided to evaluate the law (after some 10 years). They set up a committee, which they instructed one thing: They must not under any circumstance suggest in their review that the law should be removed. They produced a review, which is remarkable for being one of the most extraordinarily politicized pieces of paper ever produced in Sweden, and has been regularly ridiculed since it was published. Among the most serious pieces of criticism: They never asked any active sex workers what they thought about the law AT ALL.

Meanwhile, the complaint that seems to be most frequent about the law is that it did mostly what it was supposed to. It scared off the nice guys, leaving only the scary guys to provide jobs for the sex workers. But, as I said, no real evaluation of before or after has been done, so...


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As with anything that speaks to baser needs and can have a very real impact on brain chemistry, some moderation is, indeed, warranted no matter how fun and exciting it can be.


Scythia wrote:
Limeylongears wrote:
Revenge porn and misogynistic harassment can be dealt with under existing laws - moving into a digital age has, unfortunately, made that sort of thing much too easy to do, but it's not as if similarly unpleasant things didn't happen in ye olden times

This is not actually the case. In many parts of the U.S. for example, if a woman voluntarily sends sexual pictures to another person, the person can distribute then as they see fit, and the woman will have no legal recourse unless they are used for commercial purposes.

The idea that there are (widedpread) legal protections is a common misconception, right up there with the idea that existing anti-discrimination laws protect transpeople.

Fair enough - I can't speak for other countries, of course, but there are already mechanisms for dealing with it in the UK:

Spoiler:
"Revenge Porn is not new and currently, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) prosecutes cases around Revenge Porn using a range of existing laws. Sending explicit or nude images of this kind may, depending on the circumstances, be an offence under the Communications Act 2003 or the Malicious Communications Act 1988. Behaviour of this kind, if repeated, may also amount to an offence of harassment under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997"

However, they're introducing a new law to make it a specific offence, so what we have presently may not be sufficient


I have mixed feelings about the easy access to porn.

When I was little anything porn related was hard to come by. There was strip poker on the C64 or "Spellcasting 101 - Sorcerers get all the girls" on the XT-PC which featured pictures of women in underwear if you activated the naughty mode. In CGA graphics and, in my case, a monochrome green monitor.
Then there were the underwear sections in fashion catalogues.

Later porn mags became a thing. Eventually with CDs with short movie files of girls dancing nude or taking a stroll at the beach.

Nowadays it is all explicit stuff. Finding pure nudity without sexuality is hard. And everything you need to get hardcore porn is some internet capable device. It is free, easily accessible. And while I enjoy stuff like that from time to time I mourn the time where girls in underwear were good enough.

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