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I've always tried to maintain that they are extremely rare and their appearance is wondrous or disastrous depending on the type. In 30 years of game mastering I've probably thrown less than a dozen dragons at my players.
In another thread someone said they only have one representative dragon of the chromatic and metallic "true" dragons, using drakes and wyverns as more common encounters. I really like this idea, and think I'll adopt it for my homebrew. The 10 classic dragons are near mythical and haven't been seen in centuries. No one knows if they even truly exist anymore or if they do, where they are or what their agendas are.
So how do you treat dragons in your campaigns? Are they common or rare? Do they interact with the lesser races, either benignly or malignantly? What are their agendas, if any? I'd love to hear about them.
I still use AP's, because I don't have time to homebrew anymore, but I still have them as rare which keeps the knowledge DC at 15+CR. Part of it is because dragons don't openly show themselves, and also when someone does meet one they don't normally live to tell about it, if the meeting led to a fight, so that means knowledge on them is not easy to find.
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I tend to go one of two ways:
All in- dragons are a dime a dozen, even most peasant farmers know the significance of the chromatic/metallic colouration.
No parking- dragons don't exist, or perhaps they do in myths and tales, but nobody has ever seen one when they were sober.
I don't know why dragons provoke such an extreme response from me, but there you go.
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I have done a lot of world building over the years, so my answer varies greatly.
I have run games where dragons were allowed as PCs (Rifts, for example - even if they are "young" dragons). For Pathfinder / D&D games, dragons tend to be less common than other "quest" alpha predators. In other words, they aren't on a random encounter table, yet they might still be a BBG or a plot element in a campaign.
I usually throw out the alignment color wheel, which can throw off more traditional players. Coloration still denotes ability, yet I tend to allow any color dragon to develop any alignment. Dragons aren't outsiders, and are highly intelligent sentient beings. Granted, I always warn groups of this before running a campaign (and remind those that have PCs with considerable ranks in knowledge arcana skill).
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Up to CR 10 or so they are in the "upper echelon" of the monster type, rare but not unknown. They usually show up as tough fights, boss monsters, BBEGs, or narrative tools (too hard to defeat, but available as allies in weird circumstances).
Powerful creatures, but still struggling with their own meteoric rise to power and without the knowledge and/or resources for a backup plan.
Over CR 10 they get into the league of movers and shakers, with a plethora of minions at their beck and call, whole organizations at their disposal, and the wisdom of ages - facing adventurers in straight combat is bad for your health, unless you're overwhelmingly more powerful.
Fighting a dragon means facing a regional spanning organization (a thieves guild operating in more than three towns, a very large mercenary band, a mage circle spanning a dozen members, etc.) or even a whole nation. That's coming to get you.
Better be ready to flee.
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In Golarian & Greyhawk I have them being sligghtly rarer than normal -- nobody in the town has ever actually seen one themselves, but everyone's got a cousin who's neighbour's uncle once saw one. A typical 10th level adventurer may have seen one in his career.
In my homebrew setting true dragons are significantly rarer, and are mostly unique -- the colour standardisations are quite loose and are only prevalent among fairly young dragons. All true dragons are directly descended from gods.
Really big Dragons would have to be rare, due to the food requirements. Fortunately, I can see an easy workaround that I would use if I were making my own campaign setting:
Dragons are supposed to be tricky, even more than you would think for their intelligence, right? (At least that is the case in some pre-D&D mythology.) In addition, they are supposed to be very proud (as well as greedy).
In medieval art, Dragons usually aren't all that enormous (see the Wikipedia article on Dragons for European and Persian examples), compared to modern fantasy art, although ancient myths of enormous creatures (Dragons and otherwise) are also available.
Now, how would you reconcile the disparity in sizes? Dragons go beyond the usual trickery, and use extremely powerful Illusion magic, powered by their Pride! Their Illusion supernatural ability is so strong that normal anti-Illusion magic doesn't work against it (like 20th level Ninja using Hidden Master), although exceptionally powerful magic might. The illusion would double as a Displacement effect, and extend to making missed shots appear to bounce off the Dragon's hide. Defeating a Dragon that is old enough to have really mastered such magic without horrible cost would involve "finding its weak spot" -- actually figuring out just where within its Draconic Illusion the real Dragon is hiding -- or using exceptionally powerful Divination magic (has to be more powerful than run-of-the-mill True Seeing) or Abjuration magic (such as that overpowered Anti-Magic Field) to see through the Draconic Illusion or prevent it from working in the first place. Judging from the Medieval paintings, St. George and Rostam used the latter approach, since the Dragons they are killing aren't much bigger than their horses (up to 3 times bigger in another St. George painting or engraving that I can't find at the moment).
This allows Dragons to be still terrifying (most people don't have access to the powerful magic needed to overcome the Draconic Illusion), while allowing them to be small enough even as adults to have manageable food needs (compatible with population being large enough to maintain itself fairly safely as long as no one manages to mastermind a successful systematic extermination campaign) and to be able to fly as a mere Extroadinary ability (like Quetzalcoatlus, although differing in details of shape).
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Dragons are magic, why would they need as much food as a real world creature of that size?
Plus they are rich enough by the time they get big to pick up a Ring of Sustenance.
Interesting plot hook:
". . . Your mission, should you choose to accept it, will be to find out who has been crafting and selling all these Rings of Sustenance to the Dragons on our wanted list, and put an end to their scheme. Should you or any of your Mythic Mission Force be killed or captured, the Secretary will disavow all knowledge of your actions. This messenger will self-destruct in five seconds . . . AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!"
All in- dragons are a dime a dozen, even most peasant farmers know the significance of the chromatic/metallic colouration.
No parking- dragons don't exist, or perhaps they do in myths and tales, but nobody has ever seen one when they were sober.
I don't know why dragons provoke such an extreme response from me, but there you go.
Maybe you're like me: you don't find "rare monster" terribly interesting or useful at least applied to something with a lot of press in the Real World. Or you're someone who gravitates toward extremes, either wanting to binge or cut yourself off completely with the middle being irritatingly wishy-washy.
Personally I don't have anything of the Dragon creature type. Something about the visual design of most of its creatures is very "blah". If I were to have anything "dragony" it would probably look something more like a griffin with horns. The only Dragon-type Pathfinder monsters I keep are the "eastern dragons" (which is really me regarding the mythological lung as not the same thing as dragons) and the dragon turtle (makes a good giant turtle), which become Magical Beasts (maybe Outsider for the lung).
After considering it for awhile, I believe I've figured it out. I alternate between seeing dragons as a staple or a nuisance. Of course if they're a staple they'll be everywhere, but of they're a nuisance I don't want to bother. Basically it comes down to how "traditional" I want my fantasy setting to be.
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I've run my home campaign world for a long time, adding a century or so to the date every time a new campaign starts.
When AD&D shifted from 1st to 2nd Ed (as I said, a long time) my group sort of merged the two rule sets. Consequently, in order to keep the new-fangled 2nd Ed dragons from eating the next party they ran into, in my campaign world the term 'dragon' referred to 1st Ed dragons - basically large lizards with wings, a breath weapon and enough brains to wreak havoc. They were not exactly common, but there were enough of them around the place to ensure that most mid-level parties could claim to have slain one or two.
2nd Ed dragons, on the other hand, were referred to as 'wyrms', and only two have ever been encountered during the decades of play (real time) - an elder red and an elder blue. There are probably a few others around, but the world is big, and adventurers don't get everywhere.
Shifting to 3rd Ed and Pathfinder, I've tweaked things to keep the same distinction, and my players seem to enjoy it; they can slay the odd dragon with enough risk to life and limb to be able to boast about it, and have been known to flee whichever country they're in if they even suspect that there may be a wyrm around the place.
Reggie.
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See I want to say as rare as Roc's teeth...
In my homebrew, dragons in lore are the favored creation of the over deity. They have their own island, where young can be raised (by all true dragons) and to discuss dragon politics.
In the world's early history, there was a major war started by two of the gods, that ended up being dragons vs. demons for the most part.
The dragons took a serious hit to their overall numbers, but were victorious. In the eons sense, they've decided that their mutual survival is more important than moral superiority. Now a days, dragons no matter their color, can be within one step of their usual alignments.
A few decide to bond with riders in an attempt to work with other races, and keep an eye and try to understand their culture.
They take serious their historical role as the world's defenders against major extra-planar threats, and in that front dragons are united.
Most of the "drakes" in my world are attempts by some to try to copy or recreate a true dragon. Their inherent magical nature is hard to reproduce, and just end up with dragon-like byproducts. Good dragons take pity on intelligent ones, much like someone would look out for a little sibling with a disability, while evil ones will seek to use them as puppets or minions.
One nation has bred for themselves a special type of drake that they use as mounts for their aerial cavalry.
Dragon Atlantis! Welcome the New Neighbour-lords
Dragons inhabited a number of islands far from any sort of civilisation and originally lived primitively. Like Komodo dragons plus Aborigines (racism alert!). When the seas rose, their shallow islands went under, forcing them to fly to the continents.
Once there they terrorised and ate, bred with other dragons that made the journey and controlled the highlands (like mountains), because they like to perch and look down upon their new domains (something they used to not be able to do on flat islands). In doing so, they discovered peoples, cities and civilisations, they also discovered they like very much to lord over them and dine on the trade roads (which are not unlike a sushi-later, if you have ever ate off one of those). Their intellects also grew with their curiosity, whereas previously there had not been much stimulation or change.
Yes, the "Atlantis" dragons are now experiencing a renaissance of the mind while becoming the biggest predatory "cats" around and enjoying playing with their new food. No, there are no good gigantic carnivorous lizards nesting on mountains and devouring everything for miles around.
Not very common at all, but most are wyrm, and they are breeding quite fast now.
^Interesting hook -- wonder if the sea level rise was brought on by people clearing land and burning stuff . . . .
I usually run off of modules so they are a significant but not omnipresent monster type. I had two dragons in my last half AP campaign that they fought directly, one tatzylwyrm and one true dragon plus lots of plot hooks on dragon history with PCs and NPCs including a barbarian/dragon blooded sorcerer PC.
Chromatic, Metallic, and Gem (amethyst, crystal, emerald, sapphire, topaz from D&D) are all but extinct. Only a single specimen from each color lives a now immortal life, due to a strange property of my campaign world where the last being of a sentient creature becomes immortal. That being gets to choose to either remain on the planet, or be transported to a plane of existance of their choice (such as Elysium, the Abyss, etc). Each of the dragon immortals chose to remain on the material world. They can reproduce with creatures other than the other true dragons, so there are still chromatic half-dragons, sorcerers with metallic dragon bloodlines, etc.
The non-chromatic, metallic, and gem dragons are fairly rare the older they get. The younger, the more common. Non-true dragons (drakes, wyverns, etc) are rather common.
Yeah, wyverns are always more common than dragons in my games (and I think it is the case in settings like the realms). One thing a dm I know did, was throw in not just your typical wyvern, but upgrade it heavily and make it gargantuan. Yes, we woke it up. Fantastic fight.
So slumbering great wyverns were also something to fear.
Chromatic, Metallic, and Gem (amethyst, crystal, emerald, sapphire, topaz from D&D) are all but extinct. Only a single specimen from each color lives a now immortal life, due to a strange property of my campaign world where the last being of a sentient creature becomes immortal. That being gets to choose to either remain on the planet, or be transported to a plane of existance of their choice (such as Elysium, the Abyss, etc). Each of the dragon immortals chose to remain on the material world. {. . .}
This reminds me of a Dragon magazine article from 1st Edition D&D times about the missing Chromatic Dragons: Orange, Yellow, and Purple. (They had breath weapons that were hybrids of the neighboring Chromatic Dragons: Molten Sodium, Salt, and Energy, respectively.) Maybe those types DIDN'T choose to remain on the planet . . . .
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Yeah, breathing warm salt into the faces of your enemies is going to make them want to kill every last one of your kind.
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This reminds me of a Dragon magazine article from 1st Edition D&D times about the missing Chromatic Dragons: Orange, Yellow, and Purple.
The Yellow Dragon made it into the 2nd edition Monstrous Manual, and the Orange and Purple Dragons were in the 2nd edition Monstrous Manual Annual Volume Four; though their breath weapons were slightly different from that original (1st edition) Dragon Magazine article (e.g. the Yellow Dragon's breath weapon is a blast of heated air and sand).
Chromatic, Metallic, and Gem (amethyst, crystal, emerald, sapphire, topaz from D&D) are all but extinct. Only a single specimen from each color lives a now immortal life, due to a strange property of my campaign world where the last being of a sentient creature becomes immortal. That being gets to choose to either remain on the planet, or be transported to a plane of existance of their choice (such as Elysium, the Abyss, etc). Each of the dragon immortals chose to remain on the material world. {. . .}This reminds me of a Dragon magazine article from 1st Edition D&D times about the missing Chromatic Dragons: Orange, Yellow, and Purple. (They had breath weapons that were hybrids of the neighboring Chromatic Dragons: Molten Sodium, Salt, and Energy, respectively.) Maybe those types DIDN'T choose to remain on the planet . . . .
I got new different types of dragons for my world. Let me see if I can find that list... *goes searching*
Prismatic: Brown, Gray, Yellow, Orange, Purple
Ore: Iron, Platinum, Mercury, Cobalt, Rosenite (new metal for my world)
Ringmetal (similar to Pathfinder's Starmetal; these dragons live in the rings that surround my world, colored like the rainbow + black and white): Adamantine (green), Arcanite (yellow), Electrum (indigo), Elementium (orange), Mythril (blue), Orichalcum (red), Yangorum (black), Yinorium (white), Zyrithine (violet)
Geode: Amber, Jade, Moonstone, Opal, Turqoise
Nature: Faerie, Frost, Magma, Syvlan, Stone
Imperial: Celestial, Forest, Sea, Sky, Spirit
Those, plus the 5 chromatic, 5 metallic, and 5 gem dragons, are the various types of dragons in my world (also the types of kobold in my world). So, there's quite a number of them. The younger ones are more numerous, but their numbers thin out through competition between them as well as deaths from humanoid attacks or trying to take on something they weren't quite ready for. The older ones are much more rare.
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Gem dragons are off shoots from the Metallics and Chromatics in my world. When psionics became prevalent, gem hatchlings began to immurge from other dragon's eggs. The dragons held a conclave, and it was revealed that the over deity had put this in motion. Dragons have the role of defender of the world on a grand scale, and now if enemies show up that are psionic, these new dragons would be there to aid them.
The new kids on the block, the Gems have formed their own culture within dragon culture and such, and have only been around for 5 or 6 dragon generations.
Chromatic, Metallic, and Gem (amethyst, crystal, emerald, sapphire, topaz from D&D) are all but extinct. Only a single specimen from each color lives a now immortal life, due to a strange property of my campaign world where the last being of a sentient creature becomes immortal. That being gets to choose to either remain on the planet, or be transported to a plane of existance of their choice (such as Elysium, the Abyss, etc). Each of the dragon immortals chose to remain on the material world. {. . .}This reminds me of a Dragon magazine article from 1st Edition D&D times about the missing Chromatic Dragons: Orange, Yellow, and Purple. (They had breath weapons that were hybrids of the neighboring Chromatic Dragons: Molten Sodium, Salt, and Energy, respectively.) Maybe those types DIDN'T choose to remain on the planet . . . .
I got new different types of dragons for my world. Let me see if I can find that list... *goes searching*
Prismatic: Brown, Gray, Yellow, Orange, Purple
Ore: Iron, Platinum, Mercury, Cobalt, Rosenite (new metal for my world)
Ringmetal (similar to Pathfinder's Starmetal; these dragons live in the rings that surround my world, colored like the rainbow + black and white): Adamantine (green), Arcanite (yellow), Electrum (indigo), Elementium (orange), Mythril (blue), Orichalcum (red), Yangorum (black), Yinorium (white), Zyrithine (violet)
Geode: Amber, Jade, Moonstone, Opal, Turqoise
Nature: Faerie, Frost, Magma, Syvlan, Stone
Imperial: Celestial, Forest, Sea, Sky, SpiritThose, plus the 5 chromatic, 5 metallic, and 5 gem dragons, are the various types of dragons in my world (also the types of kobold in my world). So, there's quite a number of them. The younger ones are more numerous, but their numbers thin out through competition between them as well as deaths from humanoid attacks or trying to take on something they weren't quite ready for. The older ones are much...
Does a forest dragon breathe out trees as the breath weapon?
Does a forest dragon breathe out trees as the breath weapon?Chromatic, Metallic, and Gem (amethyst, crystal, emerald, sapphire, topaz from D&D) are all but extinct. Only a single specimen from each color lives a now immortal life, due to a strange property of my campaign world where the last being of a sentient creature becomes immortal. That being gets to choose to either remain on the planet, or be transported to a plane of existance of their choice (such as Elysium, the Abyss, etc). Each of the dragon immortals chose to remain on the material world. {. . .}This reminds me of a Dragon magazine article from 1st Edition D&D times about the missing Chromatic Dragons: Orange, Yellow, and Purple. (They had breath weapons that were hybrids of the neighboring Chromatic Dragons: Molten Sodium, Salt, and Energy, respectively.) Maybe those types DIDN'T choose to remain on the planet . . . .
I got new different types of dragons for my world. Let me see if I can find that list... *goes searching*
Prismatic: Brown, Gray, Yellow, Orange, Purple
Ore: Iron, Platinum, Mercury, Cobalt, Rosenite (new metal for my world)
Ringmetal (similar to Pathfinder's Starmetal; these dragons live in the rings that surround my world, colored like the rainbow + black and white): Adamantine (green), Arcanite (yellow), Electrum (indigo), Elementium (orange), Mythril (blue), Orichalcum (red), Yangorum (black), Yinorium (white), Zyrithine (violet)
Geode: Amber, Jade, Moonstone, Opal, Turqoise
Nature: Faerie, Frost, Magma, Syvlan, Stone
Imperial: Celestial, Forest, Sea, Sky, SpiritThose, plus the 5 chromatic, 5 metallic, and 5 gem dragons, are the various types of dragons in my world (also the types of kobold in my world). So, there's quite a number of them. The younger ones are more numerous, but their numbers thin out through competition between them as well as deaths from humanoid attacks or trying to take on something they weren't quite ready for.
The "imperial" dragons are basically the ones from Pathfinder. But that would be funny as all get out.
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In my homebrews, dragons are uncommen to rare. There are tales that inspire adventurers to seek these beasts out, many of the young ones are dead or well hidden. The older ones when found tend to be crankier, who wouldn't be with the wholesale slaughter of your kind.
Though with less hunting of them, or the older ones gobbling adventurers like tic tacs than if needed, I could have a slow reintroduction of them.
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Does a forest dragon breathe out trees as the breath weapon?
LOL
No it's like Don Cheadle's Captain Planet. Their breath weapon turns people into trees.
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I have an entire region of my homebrew world used as a massive chessboard by dragons. Even outside this region, there's a fair few of them who are prominent in their respective locations.
I've never been a huge fan of "dragons are super rare".
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In my world, most Dragons are of the older types, and have been lying dormant for so long, most consider them myths (The closest the world has seen to a Dragon was a warlord a hundred years ago who used Wyverns and Drakes). When the PCs finally fight their first dragon, I'ma make it Mythic to emphasize that.
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Currently, however common they are on Golarion since I've been running APs. If and when I finally run something homebrew (which hasn't happened in several years), they'll be fairly common. The game was called Dungeons and Dragons for a reason, right?
It should also be noted that I'm not a big fan of supremely intelligent dragons or spellcasting dragons either, so take that as you will. They're already flying death machines that breathe fire or acid or what have you and have scales as strong as/stronger than steel. Spellcasting is overkill.
It should also be noted that I'm not a big fan of supremely intelligent dragons or spellcasting dragons either, so take that as you will. They're already flying death machines that breathe fire or acid or what have you and have scales as strong as/stronger than steel. Spellcasting is overkill.
Do you remove the spellcasting? If so, how does this affect CR?
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It should also be noted that I'm not a big fan of supremely intelligent dragons or spellcasting dragons either, so take that as you will. They're already flying death machines that breathe fire or acid or what have you and have scales as strong as/stronger than steel. Spellcasting is overkill.Do you remove the spellcasting? If so, how does this affect CR?
Typically I just ignore it. As far as how it affects CR? *shrugs* CR isn't something I pay much attention to. My players heavily favor martial characters, so CR is a bit skewed for my group. I know that there is a template in MM 4 or 5 for 3.5 that gets rid of dragons spellcasting, though I can't remember the name.
Does a forest dragon breathe out trees as the breath weapon?LOL
No it's like Don Cheadle's Captain Planet. Their breath weapon turns people into trees.
Holy bugbear princesses, that is EVEN better!
Stolen, noted, coming soon.
As a rule, I work in some type of Dragon based encounter about every 15 game-sessions. Because Dragons are fun.
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For my own games. Feral Dragons are more common than True Dragons. This is because of the Horde. Metal absorbs magic, gold more so than other metals. True Dragons feed on magic as much as meat, so the Dragon Horde isn't about greed it's about food and it's growth in power. The older the Dragon the more magic it needs thus the bigger horde it needs.
An Egg raised in a horde will be a True Dragon. Intelligent, spellcasting, the works, because it feeds on the ambient magic of the horde while it grows.
A Dragon Egg raised not in a Horde will hatch a Feral Dragon. With no magic to feed on during their development they are more like animals. Big, Scaly, immensely dangerous animals. Most of these are Wyverns or Drakes but occasionally you get a Dragon with the Feral Dragon template.
A True Dragon only raises an Egg in it's horde when it truly wants progeny. If it doesn't care or sometimes just wants some extra guardians it raises the eggs outside of the treasure horde.
I also ruled that a True Dragon's color is determined by it's driving personality trait as it grows. Chromatics are driven by Sin while Metallics by Virtue. That way I can have a Red Dragon and a Gold Dragon be siblings or otherwise related in some way.
You mean hoard?
I most likely do. Stupid english language