Holy Vindicator Question


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So if I take holy vindicator as a level 8 cleric, going into level 9, then when I hit level 10 and gain my next thing of spells, what spells am I getting? Only a level 2, or do I get a level 5 spell? Was a debate I had earlier with a friend and I believe he's right, but the wording is confusing the heck outta me and I wanted to check for sure


you count as a 9th Level Cleric for the purposes of gaining and casting spells.

Prestige Classes that skip Caster levels like that take a bit of experience with to understand.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So do I get the level 5 spell?


you are a 9th level cleric for you spells, so yes, you get the 5th level spell. You're also a 9th level caster for your caster level checks.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

But where does it say I get my level 5 spell? It only says I get more spells per day, not next level spells


2ndGenerationCleric wrote:
But where does it say I get my level 5 spell? It only says I get more spells per day, not next level spells
Holy Vindicator wrote:
Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a vindicator gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If he had more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming a vindicator, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for the purpose of determining spells per day.

This is such an old ruling (it's literally a 15-year-old ruling) that I don't think Paizo even bothers to address it themselves - it's just an inherent part of the d20 System, and WOTC clarified this way, way, way back when.

Whenever a Prestige Class says the character "gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class" that means exactly that - you gain Spells Known & Spells Per Day as if you had advanced one level in your previous spellcasting class.

You don't gain things like Bonus Spells from, say, Bloodlines, or Domains, Schools, etc.

But you consult your Spells Known and Spells Per Day chart of your previous class and gain Spells, including new levels of spells, just like normal.


And if you won't take our word for it, then look at official Pathfinder material

NPC Codex wrote:

ICE MAIDEN CR 19

XP 204,800
Elf sorcerer 10
Dragon disciple 10
NE Medium humanoid (elf)

...

Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 17th; concentration +24)
8th (4/day)—form of the dragon III, polar ray, sunburst (DC 27)
7th (7/day)—delayed blast fireball (DC 26), form of the dragon II, mass hold person (DC 24), prismatic spray
6th (7/day)—control water, disintegrate (DC 23), form of the dragon I, freezing sphere (DC 25)
5th (7/day)—blight (DC 22), cone of cold (DC 24), dream, spell resistance, wall of force
4th (7/day)—dimension door, fear (DC 21), ice storm, stoneskin, wall of ice (DC 23)
3rd (8/day)—displacement, fly, lightning bolt (DC 22), sleet storm, vampiric touch
2nd (8/day)—darkvision, gust of wind (DC 21), invisibility, resist energy, see invisibility, web (DC 19)
1st (8/day)—charm person (DC 18), expeditious retreat, mage armor, magic missile, shield, silent image (DC 18)
0 (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, disrupt undead, mage hand, mending, ray of frost, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue (DC 17)
Bloodline draconic (white)

If Prestige Classes didn't grant increased spell levels by increasing your effective Spellcasting Class Level, then this character wouldn't be able to cast 8th level spells (minimum Sorcerer Level 16th to cast 8th Level spells).


2ndGenerationCleric wrote:
But where does it say I get my level 5 spell? It only says I get more spells per day, not next level spells

You get spells per day. getting 5th level spells is getting a 5th level spell for the day. Thus increasing your slots from - to 1 per day is getting you the 5th level spells. If you look at the Cleric table it has a part that says spells per day. Now look at the 9th level row for the cleric on this table. See how it says you have 1+1 5th level spells per day? This is what allows you to cast a 5th level spell a day plus your domain spell. This number might actually be higher for you if your wisdom is high enough. But by having the slots to use spells is what allows you to use those spells.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Are you guys all sure?

"At the indicated levels, a vindicator gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased effective level of spellcasting."

It says as if I had gained another level, not that I am gaining another level Of cleric. It says I get more uses of my spells per day, not that I gain new spells.

And if that were right, would I gain the domain spell too? It says I gain no other benefits from my domain, but the cleric list says 1+1.

The problem is, this is like if a level 5 druid took a level of wizard. He'd cast wizard spells at level 1, druid spells at level 5,and make caster level checks at... 6? Anyways, my point is its a new class. A warpriest can't take levels of cleric to cast the domain spells as soft actions.

If it's a new class, why would it effect the old class?


2ndGenerationCleric wrote:

Are you guys all sure?

"At the indicated levels, a vindicator gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased effective level of spellcasting."

It says as if I had gained another level, not that I am gaining another level Of cleric. It says I get more uses of my spells per day, not that I gain new spells.

And if that were right, would I gain the domain spell too? It says I gain no other benefits from my domain, but the cleric list says 1+1.

The problem is, this is like if a level 5 druid took a level of wizard. He'd cast wizard spells at level 1, druid spells at level 5,and make caster level checks at... 6? Anyways, my point is its a new class. A warpriest can't take levels of cleric to cast the domain spells as soft actions.

If it's a new class, why would it effect the old class?

We are absolutely 100% sure.

Are you new?

Because I at least have played this game since 3.5 came out in 2004, I've never met a DM who has ruled otherwise, and even official material demonstrates - as I pointed out above - that it works.

PAIZO created material that I posted above that shows that YES you gain additional levels of spells from Prestige Classes.

RPG Stack Exchange

Giant in the Playground

The ENTIRE Prestige Class section of the NPC Codex, and official Pathfinder product, published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, creators of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

If somehow I and every other player are wrong, I will cut off dice-throwing arm. (thankfully, I'm not wrong)


YES we're sure, YES you get your domain spells. Did you not read my post? Getting spells per day IS what gives you new spells. And your Druid/wizard example isn't right. The line that says you increase you old caster as if you gained a level is what lets it stack this way and effect the old class. In your example your caster level checks are 5 or 1 depending if it's druid or wizard spell.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

thank you. I'm the guy who wants to play the Vindicator and thought he gained the next level of spells.

What I posted were the arguments against me that I'd started to believe given that I've never multiclassed, nor taken a prestige class before and the other 2 (a player and my dm,as well as very good friends of mine) told me I was mistaken and misinterpreting the text.

They're both more experienced than I am, so I (eventually) took their word for it, but when I tried to build a Holy Vindicator and saw how terrible it would be and how the build made no sense after a point, I came here.

Edit:: except the domain spell question and the caster level of the druid.Those were mine. Sorry if the "are you sure?" Ruffled any feathers, I was surprised to learn I was actually right lol


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sorry I didn't make our clear which side of the problem I was on lol

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