Why are the heroes going to Thissletop *spoilers*

[Mark Hoover]

So the PCs in Burnt Offerings eventually get drawn into going the Thissletop. One of the things my players in my homebrew ask all the time is "why don't they fix their own problems?" so I'm constantly having to justify why a town doesn't stop local goblin tribes, protect better against rampaging monsters in the sewers, etc.

In reading through the first book I note that Sandpoint has an experienced sheriff, a dozen 2nd level guards and a bunch of militia. Why don't THEY deal with Thissletop, since they are ostensibly on the hook for goblins getting into town to rampage in the first place?

[captain yesterday]

Tell your players to stop being a~+#*&%s and give a s!@! about something besides themselves for once.

it sounds harsh but sometimes we need to just tell it how it is

(and yes i know they're probably nice people outside the game, but that shouldn't stop them from being nice people inside the game:-p)

[Askren]

Have you considered that 12 somewhat-trained militia men aren't really all that cut out for the task of invading a fort? There's no way that many armored men can keep any sort of element of surprise when approaching or anything like that.

Besides, if they left the town undefended, what might happen?

But really, if your players demand a solid justification as to why they, as PCs, have to solve problems, rather than just sitting back and letting the NPCs do it, your response should be to ask them why exactly they're even bothering to show up to the game at all. I mean, clearly they're not interested in playing, and looking for an opportunity to not have to do so, so why bother making a character at all?

If you wanted to sit around and have them listen to you tell the story about how the Sandpoint guards organized a raid to get revenge on the goblins that attacked their festival, why do you need character sheets and dice and rules for that?

[Latrecis]

A few suggested answers:

1. The guards are 2nd level warriors not fighters - they lack the feats and other perks fighters get. They are like police or the National Guard whereas the pc's are like Army Rangers or Navy Seals - they are trained for different missions. (No offense to police or members of the National Guard.)

2. If the guards wanted to crawl through dark holes chasing goblins, wander through trackless wilderness and otherwise deal with the uncivilized swaths of Varisia they would have been "adventurers." They aren't - they are citizens of Sandpoint, may have other careers (certainly true of militia) and may have spouses, family and children for whom they are responsible. They'll risk their lives to defend the town but not march off on some kind of crusade.

3. The town has just been attacked by a large force of goblins - a completely unprecedented event. Most of the town is scared crapless. Worse, Shalelu brings news that the goblins appear to be organizing for another, perhaps larger attack. Even if Hemlock and the guards/militia were willing to march off to tackle a goblin tribe, until the pc's find Tsuto's journal they don't have the slightest idea where to go. And by the time that happens, Hemlock is gone and any such ambition is out of the question. (This by the way is the more problematic issue for the AP in my mind - why in the face of imminent attack is the town's best fighter sent away? It's senseless, at least as explained in the AP. I came up with an answer: The town is desperate for aid and in the Mayor's opinion if any other leader of Sandpoint were to go (all nobles with family in Magnimar) the request for aid would be perceived as political not military and get delayed in bureaucracy. Hemlock is their best chance for a quick response for aid.)

4. Because the AP says they don't, that's why. Now go start kicking butt and taking names. Be a Hero already. What is best in life? Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.

[Christopher Mathieu]

The initial attack catches the town by surprise because the enemy was smuggled in past the gates and walls and other defenses. The entire premise of the first set of encounters is to establish the PCs as an unusual presence who step in and deal with the problem first-hand. Additional events afterward are there to reinforce the PCs' status as local heroes, and should get the players more invested in the town's safety.

After Shalelu comes to town with news of goblins uniting, Sheriff Hemlock decides that it's time to fortify the town. He leaves for Magnimar to recruit some additional soldiers -- the town is still reeling from the first attack, and he needs better combatants than he'd get from a conscripted militia.

While he leaves the town's overall safety to his deputies, he is supposed to task the PCs with staying in the public eye, to reassure them that they're covered should another attack come. It's during this time that Ameiko turns up missing, which should motivate the PCs to go to the Glassworks. Dealing with that should turn up a route to the Catacombs of Wrath, and Tsuto's journal.

His journal has clues that point out that even more goblins are preparing for an assault on the town, and that some are going to be brought in through secret routes to attack the town from within. Everything in the journal points to two things: the Catacombs (which the party may have already dealt with) and Thistletop (which is where the leaders are).

It should be pretty clear that the town guards have to stay at home to prepare for an attack. The Sheriff is away, and won't be back in time. Shalelu is already busy harassing goblins to delay them. There is, literally, no one else in town of the PCs' caliber.

If they then raise the question of "Why doesn't the town fix their own problems?" then they can exercise the second option: sit on their butts, complaining, until the town gets overrun by four full goblin tribes at once. Goblins should be pushovers for the PCs by this point, but not when there are upwards of 100 of them, murdering and starting fires all over the place.

Simply put, the heroes should go to Thistletop because they are the heroes.

[Shadowborn]

Christopher Mathieu wrote:

Simply put, the heroes should go to Thistletop because they are the heroes.

That's pretty much the point right there. If you don't want to adventure, then why are you even playing the game?

[barry lyndon]

I set up Hemlock as a stone cold hero from the get go. As another set of goblins leapt at the mayor and other speakers he dispatched them and then grabbed the mayor to take her to safety, leaving the players to deal with the ones depicted.

He's a capable and intelligent Shoanti who fell in love with Sandpoint and sees her as his responsibility to keep safe. Having said that, he has enthusiastic, friendly, but very inexperienced men under his command, who he also cares about in his gruff way, but are totally unprepared for what is coming. While also dealing with the ever present Sczarni threat (trying to always take advantage) and the usual issues with travellers during and post festival.

The idea I wanted to sow is that he is a man to greatly respect but he and the mayor are under massive pressure as each new issue arises. He sees the PCs as kindred spirits and they should see him as a warrior trying to hold this funny little town together, until I had time to establish other relationships. So when he said he needed help it meant he REALLY needed help but was too proud to show it.

I kept Deverin out of the picture, until needed as a motivator. As kind and appreciative as she was after the goblin attack she works 24/7 keeping the town from falling apart financially and politically. When it got to the point that the players were asking Hemlock why they weren't getting paid she finally called them to an audience in her tiny office and made a plea to their humanity

I wrote it below in case anyone needs it or it helps with that side of things

Spoiler:

Deverin is facing the window with her hands behind her back.

"I've lived in Sandpoint all my life. My family was one of the 4 that established Sandpoint as a town 40 years ago. Amid some bloodshed it's true, not everyone played a straight hand. The Varisians who were here before us suffered greatly during what some called "negotiations" and the Varisian council was baying for blood."

Deverin turns to the group

"It hasn't been easy, this birth of a town. You won't know that we're still paying a generous proportion of our profits as compensation to the Varisian council that would have had us destroyed before we got started for a rash act on a stormy evening so long ago.

And yet today, Sandpointers continue to strive and create and supply. Even to help create a new cathedral to put aside the memory of the incidents 5 years ago. And to eagerly welcome visitors with delight, open hearts and joy that travellers such as yourselves would spend time here.

In light of what you have found at [Glassworks/Catacombes/Thistletop], and the terrifying threat that you revealed there, I could send a report to Magnimar. Perhaps this time they would see us as a younger sibling worth sending aid to.

But as appreciative as I would be should Magnimar look upon that request favourably I am loathe to give the insufferable Mayor Grobaras the impression that we are too weak to sustain ourselves. As such, I would like you to take the opportunity to do what you seem to do best and "investigate" the area thoroughly yourself first. Surely this is meat and mead to adventurers such as yourselves?

Regarding payment, and I am aware that my gratitude is all too little in this instance, Sandpoint has no more public spending available. It has barely enough to pay Gorvi and his boys for collecting the trash.
But know this: If Sandpoint lets you into her heart, then you will make a truer friend than you can imagine. And that will have to be payment enough. And of course anything you find at Thistletop. I can only begin to guess what treasures lie in those old goblin tunnels.

Ultimately you can view this either as an opportunity to further your material gains, or as an endeavour you feel unable to conclude. And that is a decision you must make yourself.

In the meantime I will prepare a begging letter to Grobaras, while you consider your position. There is nothing I am too proud to do for my town."

If they turn it down them you can shut the book, smile and say "And that concludes Rise of the Runelords. I hope you enjoyed it".

[Mark Hoover]

Wow BL just... wow. That was very well written. I really like that scene and may steal it to add to a RotRL run I'm planning.

This thought started in my head while starting a homebrew campaign. I've had players question why the NPCs don't do things in the past but never this brazenly. The starting premise of the campaign is a town on the edge of the wilderness has an agent of a young adventurer's guild stationed there. The female wizard is trying to not only begin a new chapter house of this fledgling organization and make them look good but also monster attacks are on the rise in the wilds as civilization is looking to expand after calamity.

The PCs then are new recruits. The guild is stretched thin so they have very limited resources with which to reward the PCs. The party basically gets a month of living expenses paid while they get the lay of the land, establish themselves and become contributing members of society. In the meantime the wizardess has already done much initial research and has resources both mundane and magical continuing to gather info in the wilderness. She and the guild then will provide missions to the PCs complete with intel, research and such or the PCs can choose to take the initiative and venture off on their own after the first month (leaving the door open for mid-to-high level adventuring on the players' terms instead of me railroading them).

The one player emails back and essentially their message boiled down to "why doesn't the wizardess and town militia handle it themselves" and "if it's only a month and basic living expenses only, why bother; what's in it for me?"

That last line they actually wrote: what's in it for me

I wish I'd had Byronius Maximus there to craft my response, but it was very similar. The captain of the guild showed them the door and explained they were free to leave whenever they wished; there is no contract binding them to service. If however they wish the aid of the guild in finding and understanding the threats in the wilds then to further their goals they should help the guild further its own. Mutual partnership.

So I like the scene with Deverin. It shows a capable, dedicated leader willing to explore any avenue or swallow any pride to see her beloved home flourish. If that does not inspire heroism in a player's heart then no amount of blood diamonds ever will. Thanks!

[barry lyndon]

Well my players are pretty inexperienced, in fact so am I as a GM, it's my first campaign and only second time I've Gm'd. There is SO much info for them to take in in RotR, so many red herrings etc, it's hugely complicated. So I make it all about the personalities.

Motivation is the one propelling factor so worth spending time on. Having said that the players themselves need to get out of the "I wouldn't do that!" to "why WOULD my character do that". Which a well written background really helps.

[barry lyndon]

I actually was potentially facing a similar situation actually in chapter 2. They managed to subdue Ironbriar and wanted to call it a night. I didn't want to leave the session so weakly so I had them all arrested by guards, including 2 hellknights who didn't care at all that a Justice of Magnimar was involved (this impressed the players as to the autonomy of hellknights, useful later to make Grobaras more impressive). At the beginning of the next session I read/acted out the following to set the scene of the guy that was going to ask them to do something:

Spoiler:

The Hells in Magnimar comprises 9 levels of increasing wretchedness as it descends deep under the city, masquerading as a prison system. You've possibly just spent the worst night of your lives on level 3.

Underground, with little or no light, with the smell of faeces and vomit, lying on damp bunks barely filled with straw, listening to the sounds of torture lulling you into fitful periods of sleep. While being plagued by a relentless chill breeze that seemed to be purposefully directed at every corner of your cell, the one meal that was thrown in front of you was a mysterious substance that defied identification, wriggling with some kind of life until it suffocated in hardening pools of fat. And that was only one night of what might be a long stay punctuated by torture sessions, the result of being arrested apparently having slaughtered innocent sawmill workers.

In the early morning, one by one your cell doors are unlocked and you are released into the company of 4 menacing-looking guards accompanied by a dour, dispassionate man with a countenance that speaks of having seen all the atrocities that can be committed by something to something else.

You are escorted still bound and gagged up to the top floor where an effete clerk with a clipboard joins you. He is all business and regards you in the manner of a weary tour guide.

Valanni Krinst:

"My name is Valanni Krinst, you have already met my associate Khonderian. You are to meet the Lord Mayor. Come. And don't dally, he's incredibly busy".

New map: Mayors office- impressive

Lord Mayor Groboras:

"What is it now Valanni? What petty annoyance have you contrived to demand my attention this time? Aaah The Sawmill situation. Very well."

[he inspects the party]

"How are you all by the way? Did you have a lovely evening? I prefer to stay at home in my sumptuous mansion, But, each to their own!"

"Justice Ironbriar is not only a pre-eminent judge but also the leader of the respected Brothers of the Seven society who do quite a lot for charity. And yet, according to his report, while he was preparing the minutes of the last Seven's meeting you four broke in and massacred the workers at the mill. While he was attempting to protect these innocents, you overcame him and would have murdered him as well, had it not been for the timely intervention of the City Guard. That may have been the end of the matter had not some Hellknights decided to take it upon themselves to bring him in as well, leaving me with somewhat of an embarrassing situation to resolve. Apparently we can also place you at the the house of the missing nobleman Aldern Foxglove. Where instead of mr Foxglove were found two corpses of Faceless Stalkers."

"You must be asking yourselves "But Mayor Grobaras, should we not be having confessions extracted from us, forcibly, by the inestimable interrogation squad? Why are you taking an interest in such wretches as us?"

"Before I allow Khonderian here to remove various parts of your bodies to find out why, or simply let the Hellknights have a chat with you in their playful manner, I thought it expedient to simply ask, on the basis that you might tell me. I'm rather naive like that, always looking for the good in people."

[party chat]

2 hellknights come in, interrupting.

Hellknight:

"Justice is taking too long, All involved in the Sawmill Massacre must face the sword."

Grobaras:

"You have no jurisdiction here, Hellknight. You are in magnimar by her own generosity and my sufference. Your purview is the streets, not our judicial system. "

Hellknight:

"We'll be keeping a very close eye on Ironbriar. And these thugs. And you."

Grobaras:

"You have my sincere gratitude. Please pass on my regards to your demonic overlords next time you're visiting the family."

]Tension release device- this to show the control that the mayor has]

"How dramatic! So, the heroes of Sandpoint stand before me today. Oh yes, of course I know who you are. You've made quite the name for yourselves up north already. Quelling goblin uprisings and the like, now I understand you're investigating these killings for Sheriff Hemlock.

Now, the gods know, I have no love for Mayor Deverin. Her righteous, holier than thou attitude makes her difficult to deal with through the accepted political means: bribery ,etc. But I do having a begrudging respect for Hemlock. Despite being a Shoanti he is not an idiot.

And I've had my eye on Ironbriar for some time. Although what you tell me is almost inconceivable, it also has the ring truth about it and matches my worst suspicions that he is a worshipper of Norgorber. That might fly in Cheliax or Absalom but not here. Not in an election year."

OPTIONAL
"We have an anonymous journal from the Sawmill. Written in known languages but using a cipher than renders it incomprehensible. Ironbriar says he's never seen it before but we will decipher it eventually. Until that is complete Ironbriar will stay as my guest. Once we decode it we will have no need for outside intervention"

[offer]

"My deal for you then is this: you in your capacity as heroes can finish this macabre affair in your own manner and hopefully find some evidence to prove what you say is true and that Ironbriar is complicit. If you can then you will have the run of the city as heroes and I will sweeten the deal with a reward of let's say 2000 gp. I would be happy to pay that and Deverin will owe me as well for sparing you, as I'm sure you're very good for business in that s~!!hole of a town.
It goes without saying that should you try to leave the bounderies of this city, you won't get far. You will be caught, arrested, tried and executed as murderers. After an extended holiday in the lowest level of The Hells.

[if they ask for more help]

"I have no dog in this race. These aren't the first or even the only serial killings that have taken place in the city, although admittedly the most prevalent. I will not commit resources to chasing up every rumour or conjectured theory. You will be our canaries in the coalmine. Should you persevere and finish this sorry tale, then it will be profitable for you. If not, I can always send in a team using your demise as justification."

[finish with]

"Let us be under no illusion. This is an olive branch for you in respect of your capacities of being deputies of Hemlock. I hope to make use of him one day, and I will go to small lengths to achieve this, although my patience on the matter is not infinite. And who knows, maybe we will become friends"

"Sounds good? I hope so. I get very vexed if my second breakfast gets cold. Valaani, over to you."

Vaalani:

"Your possessions will be returned to you as you leave. You can keep those hideous masks, there were some left at the scene which will be kept as evidence and for investigation. We will also be talking to some of the dead through magical means to see what they have to say. How exciting!"

The mayor is pompous and can't say his Rs but when the hellknights come in the players know he is a serious dude. They responded really well to this character which helps guide them later.

[Mark Hoover]

NOICE!

[NobodysHome]

Continuing the tone of this thread, leaving it to the locals to "fix their own problems" is NOT what adventurers do. It's what farmers, merchants, and cowards do.

Two of my friends are massively-experienced GMs who run homebrew campaigns all the time. And yeah, you can get the locals to deal with things. But you get no experience, everyone thinks you're useless, and pretty soon the town's become so self-reliant that they have no use for vigilantes like you. The GM closes the book on that area of the world, and if you want to make a name for yourself, you have to pick up and move on to somewhere else.

Do your players want to play, "I open a sewing shop, take ranks in Craft: Sewing, and settle down with my wife and two kids, hoping the sheriff will deal with any future incursions, can we roleplay that out?" or do they want to actually show some internal fortitude and adventure?

Honestly. "OK. The town deals with Thistletop, the goblin threat is over, and peace reigns over Sandpoint. So... where do you want to go next?" is the end result your players seem to be looking for...

EDIT: I mean, I guess that's how I'd run it. Sheriff Hemlock or Mayor Deverin asks them to go, and they say, "What's in it for us? Why don't you deal with your own problems?"

So they say, "Well, we were just trying to throw you a bone. We know new adventurers need to cut their teeth on something easy like goblins, but OK. If you're not interested, we'll deal with it."

Their free pass at the Rusty Dragon gets revoked, as they clearly aren't the sort Ameiko thought they were.

And when Book 2 starts, who is more suspicious than a group of do-nothing adventurers loitering around town for no visible reason?

[NobodysHome]

captain yesterday wrote:

I gotta stop using phone, these short replies make me seem angry:)

It's OK. You ALWAYS seem angry to me! :-P

EDIT: HA! Got in a reply to a deleted post! Woo hoo! I win!

[captain yesterday]

A flag on your trousers will make anyone look angry I guess:)

kiddo using mac to delete what I post! :S

edit: the other downside to the phone is i can't favorite with it:(
edit (redux) that and my older child's continued resistance towards school work has left me a bit touchy the last couple days i guess (at least thats what my posts sound like, didn't mean for it to bleed over but oh well what said is said:-p)

[captain yesterday]

Anyway, disregard what i said up thread, it was mostly in jest anyway but still didn't help.

My favorite thing to say when a party says "Why don't you handle it?" is "No problemo, Old Man Jenkins needs a field hand, the Inn needs a dish washer...." the world moves along without them

Now what you do if they strike out on their own throw the Sandpoint Devil at them, then when they stumble back into town, burned and half-dead those cute adorably killable Goblins won't seem so bad after all......

[Reverse]

Another option is to hand them a set of guard stats, name the guards, then point out that, as the heroes going out to take out a goblin threat, these are the new PCs they'll now be playing.

[Qakisst Vishtani]

"I didn't want to adventure; but I didn't want my home burned to the ground either so I went to Thistletop because Sandpoint needed me too."

--It really helps if one or more of the PCs is a local. My character spent the last 10 years growing up in Sandpoint and one of our other player characters is a Sandpoint native. If none of your PCs is a local, make up a local that starts hero worshiping one of the PCs; or becomes romantically involved with the brave hero who helped save the town. Stroke their ego a bit with some hero worship to encourage them. If they still don't want to go to Thistletop to save the town, invite me to play. I'd love to run through the first two modules again with a different GM and a different perspective. RotRL is too much fun.--

[Story Archer]

Mark Hoover wrote:

So the PCs in Burnt Offerings eventually get drawn into going the Thissletop. One of the things my players in my homebrew ask all the time is "why don't they fix their own problems?" so I'm constantly having to justify why a town doesn't stop local goblin tribes, protect better against rampaging monsters in the sewers, etc.

In reading through the first book I note that Sandpoint has an experienced sheriff, a dozen 2nd level guards and a bunch of militia. Why don't THEY deal with Thissletop, since they are ostensibly on the hook for goblins getting into town to rampage in the first place?

I had Hemlock ride to Magnimar to ask for additional aid and he came back disgusted with just half a dozen men-at-arms. The town decided to start fortifying their meager defenses, but there was genuine fear that any real progress would be made in the few weeks they had to prepare... and of course there was the unknown threat that was the ancient evil Nualia was trying to free beneath Thistletop.

If your PC's don't like the idea of battling the forces of evil when the threat looms large, they might be playing the wrong game. Having said that, after my PC's cleared Thistletop, I showed the Nualia's battle plans (which they found in her study):

Nualia, Lyrie and Orik would be at the gates along with Ripnugget mounted on Stickfoot and four goblin commandos mounted on goblin dogs, a goblin warchanter and 20 goblins.

Bruthazmus would lead an assault across the bridges which would include 8 goblin commandos mounted on goblin dogs ad 20 goblins.

Tsuto would lead a group of 20 goblins up out of the tunnels from beneath the Glassworks, joined by Elyrium with four Sinspawn.

Bruthazmus' group was takes with assaulting the gate from inside, timed with Stickfoot climbing over the wall after Lyrie had softened up the defenders with a Stone Call or two. She would coordinate the assault with Whispering Wind and then remain at Nualia's side using her wand. Orik would simply serve as Nualia's bodyguard.They would move to the new Cathedral to desecrate it and then the goblins would be let loose to burn and pillage as Nualia and her group progressed to the Manor homes looking for wealth and potential sacrifices.

All told:
Nualia (rebuilt as a 6th level Warpriest of Lamashtu)
Lyrie (4th level Transmuter)
Orik (4th level Fighter)
Tsuto (3rd level Monk / 1st level Rogue)
Bruthazmus (rebuilt as a 2nd level Barbarian/2nd level Ranger)
Ripnugget (5th level Fighter)
Stickfoot, Giant Gecko
12 Goblin Commandos
12 Goblin Dogs
1 Goblin Warchanter
60 Goblins
Elyrium (Quasit rebuilt as a 3rd level Cleric of Lamashtu)
4 Sinspawn

All of that against the handful of class-leveled NPC's in the town and the PC's themselves without the benefit of the wealth or experience to be gained in Thistletop. Suffice to say, they were glad they had interceded as an when they did.

[bulbaquil]

Let's suppose Sheriff Hemlock does send guards to check with Thistletop. Sandpoint's "army", for lack of a better word, consists of:
- Sheriff Hemlock (fighter 5, CR 4)
- arguably Vachedi (barbarian 3, CR 2)
- 12 guards (warriors 2, CR 1/2 each)
- 62 militia members (officially, warriors 1, CR 1/3 each).

This makes the entire Sandpoint "army" effectively a CR 11 encounter. On the surface, this would be more effective than sending in the party (who, assuming four 3rd level characters with PC wealth by level are effectively a CR 8 encounter), but:

1. A stealth approach is all but useless. Sandpoint Guards have -2 Stealth or must discard their armor to reach +0 (with AC 10).

2. A sea approach is all but useless. Sandpoint Guards have -1 Climb or must discard armor to reach +1 (with AC 10), and would have to make multiple DC 15 Climb checks or risk plummeting.

3. The bridge is trapped, and I wouldn't put it past the goblins to, if the alarm is raised, intentionally trigger the trap (by untying the rigged rope completely) to make the bridge impassable except by shimmying across on the rope (same Climb check issue).

4. No magic or AoE/battlefield control on the part of Hemlock and his posse... unless they conscript one of the few NPC wizards, who will probably not be happy about that and may not necessarily even have combat-optimal spells in their spellbook, let alone prepared.

5. The militia members are part-timers and Sandpoint natives who would be willing to defend Sandpoint if attacked, but probably will be reluctant to do a pre-emptive strike... and if forced into it, might grow resentful of him and/or the "outsider" PCs for not helping along.

6. As Latrecis mentioned (their point 3), until Tsuto's journal is brought to light, by which time Hemlock has left for Magnimar (and there would almost certainly not be any such expedition approved without him present), they have no idea where to go. They could try to follow the tracks, but Sandpoint has a wet climate and the DC to follow increases by +1 for every HOUR of rainfall.

If the party still insists on having them take care of it, some possibilities:

1. If Hemlock is still in town, he and a handful of guards and militia, including at least one named NPC that you think would reasonably be a member of the militia, go off to Thistletop. Hemlock survives, but is badly injured, but 2d3 guards and most of the poorly-equipped militia (including the named NPC) die in the failed assault.

2. NPCs will start treating the PCs as bums or layabouts. Ameiko will likely rescind her freebie and may well shove a broom into one of their hands, making a comment about "maybe my father was right about you all along". Start tracking everything's price (food, inn stay, etc.)... every last copper. Have businesses start hiring for 1sp/day positions... the shipyard needs more dockworkers, Gorvi could use another cart-pusher, perhaps even have Crade Hambley need a few more field hands for the upcoming harvest....

3. As a corollary to point 2, is Lonjiku still alive? If so, he can always show up and reinforce point 2. If not, the Scarnettis are likely to be equally as unfond of "filthy vagrants", and might well want to use their Sczarni contacts to e.g. implicate them in petty crimes and generally paint the PCs as no-good troublemakers.

4. Sometime in Lamashan, the full-force goblin attack transpires, with Nualia and quite possibly a freed Malfeshnekor present. If Hemlock is back by now (which he probably would be, with some men-at-arms from Magnimar) he might very likely draft the PCs into this fight. Once about thirty combatants on either side of the conflict are killed, the have the runewell surge and Nualia transform into a half-fiend, gaining the template and all its benefits immediately.

5. If Sandpoint survives, the PCs - particularly Aldern's mark - should be suspect number one for the Skinsaw murders.

[magnuskn]

If your player characters don't care to do things for Sandpoint, then you kinda failed as a GM to make them care. This is a thing which should be done at character creation, so that the players make characters who are motivated to do stuff like helping out their friends and family. Allowing players to build completely mercenary characters with no motivation other than money is not on the players, but on you.

And this is not an AP where such a problem can easily occur with the given set-up, like it does to many people in Curse of the Crimson Throne. The players guide pretty much tells everybody to build people with a connection to Sandpoint.

[Soilent]

magnuskn wrote:

If your player characters don't care to do things for Sandpoint, then you kinda failed as a GM to make them care.

I am currently GMing for two ROTRL campaigns, I take them both seriously, and dedicate equal time to preparation, one with an experienced group of dedicated, skilled, and respectful players, who take the game seriously and know that EVERYONE having fun is the top priority. ALL of these players are people I've just recently met.

This game is going fantastically, and every week I get comments from my players about how they're having a blast and can't wait to keep playing again.

Then there's my other group, this group consists of a group of friends who I've known for a couple years. Some of these players were the original intended players for the games I was going to GM, however they've shown minimal interest at best. Showing up to my games stoned, getting up mid-session to do other things, purposefully causing trouble with other PCs, sitting around and letting others do all the work while admitting in character that they "Really don't feel like helping," all the while making horrible decisions and disruptive actions on purpose, strictly to annoy other players and me(the GM). I've explained on several occasions that this behavior is unacceptable, yet it continues. I do my best to make the world matter to the players, I do my best to try and motivate them.

I really want to be a good GM for my friends, and I try every week to shake this behavior. But it is NOT a sign of a weak GM.

Sometimes s~~~ty players are just s+&%ty players.

[/rant]

[magnuskn]

Of course. My assumption was that you, as a GM, have motivated players who might get things wrong. Having "bad players" is wholly another problem.

[Soilent]

Sorry if it feels like I'm shouting.

I finished up a session with my good group today, and I'm stewing in that feeling of the satisfied GM, while knowing that tomorrow my s*!!ty players are coming over to once again disappoint me.

I just needed to vent.

<3

[Bakul]

They don't have to go to Thistletop, but they do have to live with the in-world consequences of not going.

After an appropriate amount of time (maybe a couple of in game weeks) have Nualia and her goblin forces take the fight to Sandpoint (whether the PC's are there or not). Sim the actual fight in the background if the PC's are not there. Next time they stop back at Sandpoint they can find a couple dozen new gravesites as well as the evaporated good will of the town.

Hopefully whatever they decide to do instead of going to Thistletop was worth it...

[captain yesterday]

IF YOU WANT IT TO SEEM LIKE YOU'RE SHOUTING YOU SHOULD USE ALL CAPS!!!!!!!!!

Also lots and lots of exclamation points, and tip a Cow just to get your point across :-)

[Peet]

The thing about RotRL is that it is a traditional style adventure that assumes a band of good (mostly) heroes who will will rise to the occasion when the town is in need.

If you want to run a RotRL campaign you should explain this to your players before they create their characters. If your players want to play cold-blooded killers or hard-boiled mercenaries then maybe this is the wrong AP for them. There are others that might suit the game better.

Mind you, you can always convert treasure that is found in dungeons into a reward given by the Sandpoint Town Council. You can do things like converting Orik's +1 banded mail into half-plate. His AC remains the same but the value of his goods goes down noticeably.

I actually don't mind this as a driver for the game as it means that players are less likely to be murderhobos if the main source of treasure is an "employer."

[Kobold Catgirl]

Barry Lyndon wrote:

If they turn it down them you can shut the book, smile and say "And that concludes Rise of the Runelords. I hope you enjoyed it".

"Okay, let's just skip an installment or two, then."

[Noctani]

Mark Hoover wrote:

So the PCs in Burnt Offerings eventually get drawn into going the Thissletop. One of the things my players in my homebrew ask all the time is "why don't they fix their own problems?" so I'm constantly having to justify why a town doesn't stop local goblin tribes, protect better against rampaging monsters in the sewers, etc.

In reading through the first book I note that Sandpoint has an experienced sheriff, a dozen 2nd level guards and a bunch of militia. Why don't THEY deal with Thissletop, since they are ostensibly on the hook for goblins getting into town to rampage in the first place?

Honestly the reason is very simple.

Goblins aren't above ground creatures. They're underground creatures. whatever you see on top means there's at least 4-5x that many numbers in their tribe and thistletop is merely the "castle". There are five of these tribes.

[gustavo iglesias]

Mark Hoover wrote:

So the PCs in Burnt Offerings eventually get drawn into going the Thissletop. One of the things my players in my homebrew ask all the time is "why don't they fix their own problems?" so I'm constantly having to justify why a town doesn't stop local goblin tribes, protect better against rampaging monsters in the sewers, etc.

In reading through the first book I note that Sandpoint has an experienced sheriff, a dozen 2nd level guards and a bunch of militia. Why don't THEY deal with Thissletop, since they are ostensibly on the hook for goblins getting into town to rampage in the first place?

Easy answer is because if they do, playera wont play

[gustavo iglesias]

One easy solution is to make the players to build characters who care about Sandpoint/the campaign

One of my PC is a tiefling onispawn samurai who was a bodyguard of Lonjiku's father and is currently secretly protecting Ameiko. (Maybe even loving her)

Other character is a varisian witch who is learning from Madam Mvashti.

Make them to have ties with the town and its citizens. Makes things muchos easier