Investigator Empiricist Dex / Int based.

[rexcronos]

hi, everyone,

I'm trying to build an int/dex based investigator.

A tiefling Investigator Empiricist that dump completely (or almost) Char and Str and maximizing Int and Dex, one level dip in Inspired Blade Swashbuckler class and, of course, a Fencing Grace feat from the very first level, in order to obtain a pretty effective face,a good skill monkey and a decent backup melee fighter.

The base idea it's to dump char and use Int for skill like Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device thanks to the Empiricist's Ceaseless Observation; and also use Int for Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate, thanks to traits like Student of Philosophy and Bruising Intellect. Considering the Beguiling Liar alternative racial traits that grant a +4 bonus to any bluff check, should be a good face.

For the skill monkey side, the swashbuckler's derring-do deed allow to spend one panache point in order to add 1d6 bonus in Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim check; while the Investigator class, of course, give the Inspiration class feature. Assuming a 20 Int with a 25 point buy and a 6 + Int skill points, i feel confident in that aspect of the build too.

From the melee side, in the other hand, i have some strong concern about the fact that the character would use just a rapier as a weapon; and about the fact that studied combat and studied strike could (somehow) be not enough to be incisive in combat in late levels, even considering starting with a 18 or 20 dex. i was thinking to push-in something like Kiriin Style or something else to make the fighting side more effective.

Can someone think something about that?

Thanks

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

You're going to want Mutagen as your first talent. The +4 dex mutagen will help give you a damage boost until fast study.
Studied target, Dex to damage, Opportune Parry and Riposte, and Alchemy will be PLENTY of damage.

I'm sorry you're not getting more damage. Come to terms with it because you are the resident skill master. You also have huge amounts of Utility. You have 2 good saves. Those things Dedicate Martial Beatsticks wish they had.

I've built a extremely similar build (mine was Elf) and it is effective. Worry less because you seem to have a strong enough grasp to be doing better than half the table.

[Chess Pwn]

another option is to have power attack, but it sounds like you don't qualify for it.

[Secret Wizard]

Never dump STR below 10. You won't always have DEX-to-damage, and you need it for the first few levels...

There's literally no way to get Fencing Grace in level 1 other than playing a Human Fighter or Human Inspired Blade Swashbuckler.

[Chess Pwn]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Never dump STR below 10. You won't always have DEX-to-damage, and you need it for the first few levels...

There's literally no way to get Fencing Grace in level 1 other than playing a Human Fighter or Human Inspired Blade Swashbuckler.

he has, "one level dip in Inspired Blade Swashbuckler class" So he does have dex to damage at lv1. And why not dump str below 10? If you're not getting power attack a 7 or 8 is about as useful as a 10.

[Secret Wizard]

Quote:

he has, "one level dip in Inspired Blade Swashbuckler class" So he does have dex to damage at lv1. And why not dump str below 10? If you're not getting power attack a 7 or 8 is about as useful as a 10.

But he's a Tiefling...

At level one, he'll get Weapon Finesse for free... but Fencing Grace requires Weapon Focus, which he does not have.

Am I missing something?

...

OH! Inspired Blade gets Weapon Focus for free. My bad!

[Chengar Qordath]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

Never dump STR below 10. You won't always have DEX-to-damage, and you need it for the first few levels...

There's literally no way to get Fencing Grace in level 1 other than playing a Human Fighter or Human Inspired Blade Swashbuckler.

he has, "one level dip in Inspired Blade Swashbuckler class" So he does have dex to damage at lv1. And why not dump str below 10? If you're not getting power attack a 7 or 8 is about as useful as a 10.

Encumbrance can be an issue at Strength 7, if your group tracks that.

[Kudaku]

I'm currently playing a 17th level Dex/Int Empiricist investigator that has a roughly similar build to yours, though he's an archer. I also have an Empiricist investigator/inspired blade swashbuckler participating in my Emerald Spire campaign, who's currently level 9.

Basically I find the class very fun, but I would avoid Kirin Style because there's *a lot* of competition for your swift actions. By the time you qualify for Kirin you'll likely need to use your swift action to study a new target every round, and the swashbuckler's thirst for immediate actions is another glut on your action economy.

Since you're extremely dependent on the rapier I'd consider Weapon Versatility, which allows you to change the damage your rapier done as a swift and later free action - handy for monsters with DR/X or when you're fighting something that has bad effects when you use piercing weapons.

As has already been noted, dumping strength to 7 opens you up to a lot of encumbrance problems, which may or may not be trivially easy to solve depending on how your GM feels about encumbrance and combining existing magical items. Personally I'd consider STR 10 a good balancing point and STR 13 great since it qualifies you for Power Attack. Unfortunately Piranha Strike does not work with rapiers from the get-go, since they're not light weapons. An Effortless Lace could solve that though.

Speaking of Effortless Lace, if you can get your hands on one then TWF with two rapiers becomes a viable combat style for the mid-game. Since investigators are feat-starved this is unlikely to come online anytime soon, but it's a very potent combat option for the later levels.

The most important discovery you can take is Quick Study. This is essentially mandatory, and should really just be a default option for investigators. After that I'd consider Mutagen as your top priority. I'd rank Infusion third since personal-range buffs for everyone will make your party members love you, but strictly speaking that one's optional. Other good options are Combat Inspiration (though this one partially overlaps with Inspired weapons) and Studied Defense, which will send your AC to the stratosphere.

Extracts to keep an eye on are Alchemical Allocation (combine with a potion liquor cabinet for an incredible amount of buffing flexibility at the cost of a 2nd level extract and money spent on potions and elixirs) and Delayed Consumption - immediate action Deathward or Freedom of Movement has saved lives more times than I can count.

Finally, don't be afraid to use Inspiration points. With a starting INT of 20 you'll have a lot of them, and you don't really benefit from finishing the day with 5/7 still intact. If you think they'll make a difference, throw them on in there!

[Rycaut]

With all of your Bluff bonuses you might (if you have the feats) want to look at feinting. Depending on your play style you may also want to take a different feat than Fencing Grace (which may make your lower levels a bit harder) but you can eventually get the same effect with an agile rapier. Sure you lose it if you have to use a different weapon - and you don't get the small CMD situation boost - but if you are feat starved it could save you a feat.

(or alternatively if your GM allows the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules you could retrain Fencing Grace when you get an agile rapier - which may depend on how your GM handles buying/crafting magic items)

[Some Other Guy]

Chess Pwn wrote:

another option is to have power attack, but it sounds like you don't qualify for it.

An effortless lace would allow the rapier to be used with pirahna strike.

[rexcronos]

So...something like this can work?

Race: Tiefling
Racial Traits: Beguiling Liar (+4 Bluff); Prehensile Tail (retrieve small objects "potions and extract" as swift action)

Traits: Student of Philosophy; Bruising Intellect.
Class: Sawashbuckler (Inspired blade)1/Investigator(Empiricist) 19

Abilities (25 point buy): Str 18, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 8, Cha 5

Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Swim (Str). Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier= 9 at first level.

and

Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Int), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Int), Sense Motive (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Int). Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier= 11 for any other level. (plus Derring-Do at Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim check from the first level; Plus Inspiration from the second level; Plus Int at Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device checks at third level.

languages: common + 5

PROGRESSION:

1- Swashbuckler: Inspired Panache (6 points), Inspired Finesse, Deeds
Feat: Fencing Grace

2- Investigator: Alchemy, Inspiration, Trapfinding

3- Investigator: Ceaseless Observation
Feat: Toughness

4- Investigator: keen recollection, trap sense +1
Investigator Talent: Expanded Inspiration

5- Investigator: Studied combat, Unfailing Logic, studied strike +1d6
Feat: Extra Investigator Talent - Mutagen

6- Investigator:
Investigator Talent: Quick Study

7- Investigator: trap sense +2, studied strike +2d6
Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting

8- Investigator:
Investigator Talent: Sickening Offensive

9- Investigator: studied strike +3d6
Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

10- Investigator: trap sense +3
Investigator Talent: Combat Inspiration

11- Investigator: studied strike +4d6
Feat: Double Slice

12- Investigator:
Investigator Talent: Underworld Inspiration

13- Investigator: trap sense +4, studied strike +5d6
Feat:Potion Glutton

14- Investigator:
Investigator Talent: Tenacious Inspiration

15- Investigator: studied strike +6d6
Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

16- Investigator: trap sense +5
Investigator Talent:

17- Investigator: studied strike +7d6
Feat:

18- Investigator:
Investigator Talent:

19- Investigator: trap sense +6, studied strike +8d6
Feat:

20- Investigator:
Investigator Talent:

I liked the suggestion about the Effortless laces; and i'm planing to use a Handy Haversack bag as soon as possible for the encumbrance issues.

[Game Master]

With effortless lace, you can dual-wield rapiers effectively.