Wait, are Aspis the good guys?


Pathfinder Society

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4/5

I'd argue that in that specific example it's even possible that he's a good guy who sometimes does evil acts. But that's why my comments are so focused of motivation. The Society is certainly capable of good acts but to me it the motivation behind these acts that informs on the actual alignment of the entity not a score board of good acts versus evil ones.

And looking at the sum of scenarios that I've played and GMed the Society feels a little too willing to partake in evil acts to get the job done without showing much reservation at all. And switching between good and evil as it serves an entity is pretty much the definition of neutral in PF world but looking at the more or less consistent motivations of the Society I'm inclined to say that they are much like Cheliax. They don't seem to care much about who gets hurt in furthering their ends but are more than willing to do good when it's an obvious boon for them. But if you're going to take the position that the Society is more restrained in exercising cruelty which is what sets apart from Cheliax and that makes them properly neutral, I'm willing to respect that position though I disagree with it.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

P-sto, could you be more specific as to which scenarios you're referring? I'd like to see if my experience differs from yours.


James Martin wrote:

So in a real world situation, a guy breaks into a house to steal valuables. The house bursts into flame, at which point he notices a sleeping 2 year old child. He grabs the child (and the loot) and flees. In the end he has saved the child, but he has also bettered his situation. Is he evil? He didn't set the fire. He did break in. He did see and save the child.

I would argue he's purely Neutral. He did a bad thing and a good thing. It balances.

Did he have anything to do with the house bursting into flames?

In general though, unless he put himself at more risk, or at least had to drop some of the loot, to rescue the kid, he doesn't get a lot of Good points for doing so. Not leaving a toddler to burn to death is a pretty low bar to clear.

Or more to the larger point, whatever his moral status, the guy who sent him to rob the house isn't any better of a person because it happened to turn out this way.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

I like to think of 5-00 Siege of the Diamond City when I'm explaining the way the Aspis operates.

Spoiler:
While the entire city of Nerosyan is being assaulted, the Consortium is trying to sack refugee ships.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jayson MF Kip wrote:

I like to think of 5-00 Siege of the Diamond City when I'm explaining the way the Aspis operates.

** spoiler omitted **

That's the Battle Interactive, yes?

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

thejeff wrote:


Or more to the larger point, whatever his moral status, the guy who sent him to rob the house isn't any better of a person because it happened to turn out this way.

See that's exactly why I see the society as Neutral. They're not out to do good; they're not out to do evil. They're out to find and preserve knowledge and treasures. If you do good, so be it. If you happen to kill a few people of dubious reputation, so be it. But the self-interest is high. Except it's not so high as to routinely order lessers in the organization to commit crimes. Sometimes, yes. But Aspis enslaves, loots, murders, lies, cheats and steals on a regular basis. Making them solidly Neutral Evil. The Society is always at risk of becoming the same as the Aspis, but that's why you have the Silver Crusade and even the Shadow Lodge, trying to keep them accountable.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Jayson MF Kip wrote:
James Martin wrote:

So in a real world situation, a guy breaks into a house to steal valuables. The house bursts into flame, at which point he notices a sleeping 2 year old child. He grabs the child (and the loot) and flees. In the end he has saved the child, but he has also bettered his situation. Is he evil? He didn't set the fire. He did break in. He did see and save the child.

I would argue he's purely Neutral. He did a bad thing and a good thing. It balances.

Chaotic Good.

Goes neutral if he asks for a reward from the parents he robbed.
Goes evil if he ransoms the child back to its parents/sells it into slavery.

Pathfinders would get 1 pp for getting the jewels. 1 PP for getting the kid.

Aspis would get

1 pp for the jewels

1 pp for the kid

1 pp for setting the fire in the first place

1 pp for ransoming the kid back

1 pp for selling him into slavery

and 2pp for getting the ransom and then selling him into slavery anyway for double the money.

Pathfinders: Not good. Just better.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

LazarX wrote:
Jayson MF Kip wrote:

I like to think of 5-00 Siege of the Diamond City when I'm explaining the way the Aspis operates.

** spoiler omitted **

That's the Battle Interactive, yes?

Yeah. It's such an elegant example.

The Aspis doesn't stop what they're doing, just because an army of demons is laying siege to a town of innocents. The Pathfinder Society calls off their banquet and fights.

Dark Archive

Jayson MF Kip wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Jayson MF Kip wrote:

I like to think of 5-00 Siege of the Diamond City when I'm explaining the way the Aspis operates.

** spoiler omitted **

That's the Battle Interactive, yes?

Yeah. It's such an elegant example.

The Aspis doesn't stop what they're doing, just because an army of demons is laying siege to a town of innocents. The Pathfinder Society calls off their banquet and fights.

They weren't just "not stopping what they were doing", they were taking advantage of the attack to rob and pillage. Not exactly "Good Guy" behavior, even by my Chelaxian standards.

4/5

James Martin wrote:
P-sto, could you be more specific as to which scenarios you're referring? I'd like to see if my experience differs from yours.

No problem. I will say as a preamble that for the purpose of this list I don't actually care about secondary success conditions. In my view prestige isn't something that the Society hands out to their operatives to reward them, it's a measure of how various people view an individual based on their conduct and how willing these people are in giving Pathfinders favours based on the esteem they've earned. To me the actual goals and limits laid out by venture officers best tell what the society is about.

Spoiler:

Voice in the Void, Penumbral Accords and Mists of Mwangi - Pathfinders discretely covering up for the wealthy Blakros family to build a connection with them by helping preserve the family's image. Penumbral Accords is particularly shocking in this respect in my opinion.

Perils of the Pirate Pact - Helping a murderer and thief is apparently okay because someone more murderous is plotting to take his place.

Shades of Ice 3 - So offering mercy to the natives that attack offers a bonus when trying to negotiate peace with their leader later. I like it as far scenario goes but I really don't get any indication that the Society would care if the party decided to kill everyone on their path to defeat the Aspis Consortium.

To Scale the Dragon - Okay so the scenario closes with the PCs saving a village from a horrible onslaught. I kind of get the sense that there may not have been an assault on the village in the first place if the Pathfinders and Aspis had simply left alone a site that apparently sacred to these creatures.

Valley of Veiled Flame - Attempting to over throw an oppressive tyrant is fairly commendable but the PCs are pretty railroaded into helping. A good example of how individual Pathfinders can be heroic but doesn't endear the Society to me at all.

The Stolen Heir - I actually rather like the fact that you can be successful in the scenario either by rolling with the current political corruption or by rooting it out. Seemed pretty evident to me that the Society didn't really have a preference for how things get done as long as they get what they want.

Dragon's Demand - Going to a village because portents suggested that something meaningful was going to happen there is pretty innocuous as is the stated mission of making friends with the locals and finding out what might be amiss. Saving the village from a dragon is definitely commendable but when the village is under siege and there's no other choice I'd say it's survival at that point and not Pathfinders setting out to be heroes.

Slave Master's Mirror - Already covered but worth mentioning again the point of the mission is to protect the wealthy. Any aiding of exploited slaves is strictly upon the conscience of individual Pathfinders.

Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch - I have to commend the players at the table when I played this because we managed to get through it without a single NPC death but that doesn't change the fact that the crux of the scenario is killing people of a marginally bad reputation because they are unknowingly in possession of something very dangerous.

Tide of Twilight - If I remember correctly the second prestige point was not killing any of the locals affected by the curse. I don't recall any warning from the Venture Captain that assigns the mission to go to the effort of showing restraint with force though.

Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible - Evading local law enforcement in an effort to flip an Aspis agent. Sure the man is a known murder but he knows things and is skilled so he can't be all that bad.

Fabric of Reality - Get an important book by any means necessary. I believe that were told that the person in possession of the book had Aspis connections but the party was pretty much in agreement that we should try to be civil first. We tried to buy the book, negotiate for it, take a look around to see if it was possible to steal it and finally we came to the conclusion that forcing our way in was the only way to move the scenario forward. Afterwards we found her journal which revealed the shop owner was an assassin who had been brutally murdering people for hundreds of years. So fine a bit of round about justice I suppose but and looking at it objectively Pathfinder agents still murdered someone over a book and nothing more.

Just so I'm not being completely negative here's one that I actually like.

Scars of the Third Crusade - Pathfinders are sent in to investigate a situation where other Pathfinders have been accused of murder. I was pretty impressed by the fact that our orders explicitly mention that we allow the local authorities to carry out justice should it turn out that we find evidence that the Pathfinders actually did it.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

RE: Fabric of Reality (since tht's one I'm pretty familiar with):

Spoiler:
You're told in the VC Breifing that Shadow Orchid is a trained Xun assassin. Explicity. Maybe even twice. The scenario is written that she attacks as soon as she can seperate the party (or even divert one PCs attention).

Five(!) Different faction heads mention to be on the lookou for Vruul, who's killed multiple Pathfinder agents, as well as trespassed into the Society's demiplane.

These are not good people.

A good deal of those examples are from the earliest seasons- -the Society has been a bit more accountable of late- -you can thank Grandmaster Torch and the Shadow Lodge for fighting for accountability.

Shadow Lodge, now and always.

4/5

Well to be fair

Spoiler:
it's possible I missed that part of the briefing, the party never split up and we pretty much left as soon we found out we couldn't get what we want then cased the store from outside. And killing a person for a book is still killing a person for a book regardless of if she's evil. I suppose it was thoughtful of the author to put in a mechanic to take the blame away from the players but unfortunately in this particular instance we were too cautious for things to play out as written.

And really I do see a difference between earlier seasons and the past couple seasons. It definitely does a lot to make it easier to play as a hero but in my opinion it doesn't do much to redeem my view of the Society as a whole.


James Martin wrote:

So in a real world situation, a guy breaks into a house to steal valuables. The house bursts into flame, at which point he notices a sleeping 2 year old child. He grabs the child (and the loot) and flees. In the end he has saved the child, but he has also bettered his situation. Is he evil? He didn't set the fire. He did break in. He did see and save the child.

I would argue he's purely Neutral. He did a bad thing and a good thing. It balances.

I would also say neutral, but not for the same reasons.

His actions were either self serving or just "not being a bastard". Most "neutral" folks would likely save the child as long as it didn't put them at too much risk. It would take a stone cold person (i.e. evil) to just let the child die when they were just there.

Not smart evil, to be sure, but evil.

I just don't like the idea of balancing good and evil acts to make a neutral character. Because to me someone doing alternating good and evil over and over isn't so much neutrality as it is mental sickness.

-j

4/5

p-sto wrote:
Slave masters mirror

Actually you are quite wrong about this mission.

1. You are not there to help the 'rich' , but to check who is spying on the city of Absalom.
2. PF of the 'right' faction (LE) get a clear instruction to help the slaves.

4/5

1. Literally the first paragraph of the pdf

Spoiler:
A team of Pathfinder agents recently completed a covert
mission at the request of Lady Darchana Madinani,
second spell lord of Absalom and archdean of the
Arcanamirium. She had discovered a plot to sell specially
prepared slaves to Absalom’s noble families and use them
as scrying beacons for long-range magical espionage.
The Pathfinders captured the ship that brought the
slaves to Absalom and traced its origin to the Katapeshi
city of Okeno, notorious for its slave market known as the
Fleshfair. Among the clues the Pathfinders recovered was
a scrap of partially burned stationary signed “Muhlia.”
Investigation has confirmed this to mean Pasha Muhlia
al’Jakri, a once-prominent representative of Qadiran
interests in Absalom and the Pathfinder Society.

The scenario goes on describe a plot to gather intel on the rich and powerful of Absalom. The ultimate goal being finding information to blackmail, exploit alliances and rivalries and possibly find allies all to bring down the Pathfinder Society.

And really as far as Ambrus Valsin and Lady Darchana are concerned the slaves are an afterthought with regards to this mission. They don't even have a prepared answered written in the scenario regarding freeing the slaves because it has nothing to do with the mission.

2. Factions have nothing to do with the Society. If they did everything before season 5 would be a mess for this discussion.

4/5

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Again, its PFS not Boyscouts.

The PFS as a whole organistation is Neutral.

Im not sure what the expectations are for a campaign.

I'm quite sure, if we didn't have a a PFS but a Bellflower Network (Good Guys) focus, there would still be interaction with shady/evil NSC, shady decisions and bad deeds(killing) for the greater good.

Just to be curious, what do you expect the PFS to do about the slaves?

I think, the main problem in all this threads about 'evil' PFS, is that the people expect easy answers, good Gonder vs bad Mordor, forces and deeds of good against evil. But PFS Organized Play is written into a 'living' world, where answers are not easy,and the focus of PFS is not beeing the good guys, its learning Mysteries and History, its for the curious, not for the pure. PFS is not Greenpeace nor WWF and not Amnesty International.

5/5 5/55/55/5

p-sto wrote:

1. Literally the first paragraph of the pdf

** spoiler omitted **

And really as far as Ambrus Valsin and Lady Darchana are concerned the slaves are an afterthought with regards to this mission. They don't even have a prepared answered written in the scenario regarding freeing the slaves because it has nothing to do with the mission.

2. Factions have nothing to do with the Society. If they did everything before season 5 would be a mess for this discussion.

They have everything to do with individual pathfinders. Most andorans consider themselves andoran first and society members... fifth at least.The society is just a really good place for heavily armed people and good alibis.

The organization doesn't care: that's the definition of neutral.

Grand Lodge 3/5

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I have read through this thread and I'm a little confused by anyone who thinks the Aspis Consortium are "less evil" than the Pathfinder society.

Clearly the Pathfinder Society is not "good", they don't claim to be, and are upfront about being a neutral organisation. What I have yet to see though is any example provided by anyone of someting good that the Aspis consortium has done... ever.

It almost seems like the logic of some people is that "We aren't good, and we fight the Aspis... thus, they must be good"

I imagine that scenario selection probably plays a big part in how individuals view the Aspis Consortium. For example, anyone who has played The Wonders in the Weave two parter will have a pretty dim view of the way that they interact with a local culture. On the other hand, I can't say I'm all that proud of how our party dealt with the Aspis agents we encountered last night in The Kaava Quarry, but that had more to do with personalities of individuals on our team than any directive given to us by a venture captain.

I've been on missions where our agents did a lot of good and treated enemies we defeated well, and I've been on missions where bloodthirsty murderhobos took a grim joy in slaying helpless enemies. Some of my characters care more about the way we act than others. My suggestion, is if you think of "us" as the bad guys, then look at the agents you adventure with, and possibly look at your own characters motivation. Your outlook is likely coloured by the lens that you see te world of Golarion through. Perhaps you see the Pathfinder Society as being "Bad" because you or your friends are, in fact, evil characters. Perhaps an atonement is in order.

4/5

Okay, sorry if it wasn't clear I wasn't using Slave Master's Mirror as an example of the Society being evil so much as an example of why the good acts attributed to it don't necessarily mean that they're not evil. Which is sort of trivial because an evil individual can remain evil despite good acts, so I don't see why that doesn't hold for an organization.

But really?

BigNorseWolf wrote:


The organization doesn't care: that's the definition of neutral.

Perhaps I'm thinking a little too real world evil and not enough game mechanics evil but the way I see it.

Good = Will go out their way to act on their sense compassion
Neutral = Will generally act on compassion when easy, slightly more prone to cruelty than good
Evil = Either lacks compassion completely or enjoys cruelty, sometimes both

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
p-sto wrote:
Neutral = Will generally act on compassion when easy, slightly more prone to cruelty than good

Neutral is no more prone to cruelty than compassion.

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Jumping into this threat late, but I read through the post, and I'm still in shock that OP didn't play that very recent and amazing scenario as a delve into a nest of deadly vipers. The Aspis are the thugs that "police" a Neutral Evil city based on the whims of retired pirates and merchant rivals. Meanwhile...

By Way of Bloodcove:
the Aspis are setting up this expedition specifically to attack and kill VC Sharrowsmith and steal all his goods. Blowing up the warehouse actually goes against the briefing, because all you need to do is slow down the expedition. You're specifically told that you can't stop it. Blowing it up is the total opposite of laying low!

That scenario specifically showcases the Aspis as BAAAAAAAAD GUYS. I guess a GM could spin that as "The Pathfinder Society and the Aspis Consortium, two neutral and forthright groups of relic hunters, get in a mild argument about the ownership of some cultural artifacts," but I think that's a deliberately obtuse reading of that scenario.

I'm always surprised when PCs are fans of the Aspis, and I usually think it's because a GM didn't run them as ruthlessly as they could be.

5/5 5/55/55/5

And then in on Scions II

Spoiler:
They outright murderate the entire village of grippli, that they were selling weapons to. pathfinders might take out a guard or two and a relic, but not the entire town.

5/5 *****

BigNorseWolf wrote:

And then in on Scions II ** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
I am fairly sure they don't kill them, the impression I got was that most were out hiding in the swamp while Kalim beat up their elders to tell him where the Talisman was. Certainly not good guys but not that much different to the sort of pressure pathfinder agents sometimes apply to NPC's.
Grand Lodge 4/5

andreww wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

And then in on Scions II ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **
Spoiler:
They didn't kill the entire village, but they would have if they hadn't run. To quote the scenario:
Quote:
After waiting another hour to see if his subordinates would return first and win the prize “the nice way,” Kalim took matter into his own hands and instructed his remaining agents to ransack the village, take the elders hostage, and kill anyone who got in their way.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
andreww wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

And then in on Scions II ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
You mean like Pathfinders tend to kill anyone that gets in their way as well? Sure diplomacy works sometimes, but otherwise if you have a mission objective and someone tries to stop you... in other words, "gets in the way"... it is resolved by force of arms. I think we just tend to believe (or pretend) that anyone who tries to oppose us are "badguys", so our Society murder binges are easier to digest.
Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Fomsie wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
andreww wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

And then in on Scions II ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Every case of 'Society murderfests' I have seen involve the Society being attacked first.
Shadow Lodge 4/5

You really need to ask Jimmy how my wife plays. I'm pretty certain she would make the most TPK happy DM-authors weep.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Fomsie wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
andreww wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

And then in on Scions II ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Please let me know which scenarios contain a neutral third party that the Society is peacefully negotiating with, only to decide to not wait to see if their offer will be accepted and just decide to kill said neutral third party.
Grand Lodge 4/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
Fomsie wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
andreww wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

And then in on Scions II ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Bwhahaha:
Sorry. Just thinking about the gillmen in First Steps, Part 3, who are the lying, cheating, Aspis Consortium in disguise. Literally, for the bartender gillwoman...
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