Wait, are Aspis the good guys?


Pathfinder Society

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Shadow Lodge 4/5

Why?

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Are the pathfinders the good guys? No.

Are they the BETTER guys? Yes.

Dark Archive *

Jason Hanlon wrote:
Ms. Pleiades wrote:

"Why are you here, Pathfinder!?"

"Sir, I'm here to unveil the secrets of the past!"
"WHY ARE YOU REALLY HERE?!"
"I CAME HERE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO HOME GAMES WITH ROOM!"

The first time someone told me this, I died a little inside.

Thankfully, I hear it very rarely.

(I'll welcome anyone to the table, but it breaks my fluff-filled little heart to hear someone say that the only reason they're playing a "pathfinder" is that it's a requirement of the campaign, and that they otherwise couldn't care less.)

I suspect that's the reason most of us play PFS however. I started playing because my home group fizzled. as I found new players and GMs to home game with, my interest in PFS has waned.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM Beckett wrote:

We are told the Pathfinder Society are the good guys, or well, they are Neutral. We are also told the Aspis are evil bad guys. But not really shown much to back that up.

In one scenario, you see them brutally enslave people to excavate a ruin, working them while they're half-starved and suffering from exposure.

In another they murder people and set up the Society to take the blame.

That's not enough for you?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

5 people marked this as a favorite.

In one scenario, the Pathfinder Society goes out of their way to sell a traumatized boy into slavery after helping them recover an agent that's been kidnapped, (and who knows something they don't want the authorities to find out about).

In another the Pathfinder Society sends agents to murder people and set up the Aspis to take the blame. What's worse, the Aspis in this case where legitimately just trying to get what they where owed and rightfully deserved.

Lets not forget that the entire reason for the Shadow Lodge Faction was because enough people had gotten so angry with the Pathfinder Society's views on expendable agents, left them, and then someone finally got dirt on the "leadership" and force them to pretend to play nice and act like they cared.

Or that the entire point of the Silver Crusade was because the PFS had been banned in so many nations because of their well deserved reputation/(notoriety) that "leadership" needed to start changing face.

Or those time when they are given instructions "Leave no witnesses", or "I'll leave the details to you on how you do that", or other such things.

Or that time they steal a funerary mask that spontaneously raises angry undead and decide to take it back for further study.

Or the time they use a friend asking for help to find a vanished young girl as an excuse to gain access to treasure, with helping their friend as an after thought, "Oh, and I you can also manage to save her, cool, but, your mission is to get in and steal _______. Understood?"

Or that time they try to further instigate a war to make their little job easier.

Again, it's all about what we are told and what we are shown. We are told that the PFS is a small, multinational, apolitical group of likeminded explorers and historians that seek to rescue lost lore from destruction and the ravages of time. We are instead shown that the PFS is a massive personal mercenary army that forces their will on all nations and peoples without repercussion and takes what they want to be locked away for their own uses and no one else's benefit, that has no problem strong arming, murdering, lying, cheating, or sabotaging to achieve their ends, even to the sale of possibly sending entire nations into chaos and poverty, that really only care about hoarding secrets from everyone else.

4/5

<snip all the excellent examples>

DM Beckett wrote:
Again, it's all about what we are told and what we are shown. We are told that the PFS is a small, multinational, apolitical group of likeminded explorers and historians that seek to rescue lost lore from destruction and the ravages of time. We are instead shown that the PFS is a massive personal mercenary army that forces their will on all nations and peoples without repercussion and takes what they want to be locked...

..... wow.

Beckett, you have single-handedly altered the way I look at the Pathfinder Society (tho not PFS). That's just... cold. And chillingly accurate.

I wonder. Where did the change come from? I'm inclined to say it came from PFS. Read The Faction Guide, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, the Primer, and Seekers of Secrets. Those all present your "small, multinational, apolitical group of likeminded explorers and historians that seek to rescue lost lore from destruction and the ravages of time". With maybe a little old school British colonialism to say that the best place to protect other cultures' stuff is in the Pathfinder Society's vaults- but nobody's perfect. ;-)

It's really only in the scenarios that we get your "massive personal mercenary army that forces their will on all nations and peoples without repercussion". We didn't see nearly a much of that behavior in Seasons 0 and 1. Some, sure, but not nearly as much as we're getting in Seasons 5 and 6.

The PFS development team have made a point of listening to their players- of taking what the GMs report into account. Of changing the world in ways that reflect how the campaign has unfolded. And that's fabulous.

But as the Pathfinder Society has darkened over the years, what does that say about PFS? Please note- this isn't a criticism. There's nothing wrong with preferring a darker, more ambiguous style of play. I just wonder what our changing tastes in entertainment says about us as a group of players.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I can't respond to all of these, since I don't recognize them all, but the ones I do are deliberately twisted to show the society in a bad light.

DM Beckett wrote:
In another the Pathfinder Society sends agents to murder people and set up the Aspis to take the blame. What's worse, the Aspis in this case where legitimately just trying to get what they where owed and rightfully deserved.

In that scenario the Aspis were allying with an evil cult to steal from the Society. The mission was to break up that alliance so they couldn't steal from the Society anymore. Murder was explicitly frowned upon (albeit not for moral reasons).

DM Beckett wrote:
Lets not forget that the entire reason for the Shadow Lodge Faction was because enough people had gotten so angry with the Pathfinder Society's views on expendable agents, left them, and then someone finally got dirt on the "leadership" and force them to pretend to play nice and act like they cared.

And Aspis leaders are worse. While Society leadership often sends agents in without care, the Aspis regularly and deliberately give their own agents over for torture, mutilation, sacrifice, or worse in trade for items and favors.

DM Beckett wrote:
Or the time they use a friend asking for help to find a vanished young girl as an excuse to gain access to treasure, with helping their friend as an after thought, "Oh, and I you can also manage to save her, cool, but, your mission is to get in and steal _______. Understood?"

If that's the scenario I'm thinking of, the mission is given to recover an item that you've been given permission to recover, then you're approached by someone who actively dislikes the Society to ask you to search for news about a girl that vanished a decade prior.

Grand Lodge 3/5

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Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
G-Zeus wrote:
the last thing you want is all the silver crusade paladins falling and becoming antipaladins.
Unleash an entire lodge full of Paladin Badass, reaping lawful vengeance upon the city. One of the few things that can strike fear into my CN heart.

Aye. This is when most of my characters would try to leave the island for safer places, such as Geb...... My Battlerager on the other hand, would accept the challenge and die a glorious death! FOR GORUM!!!!

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Jeff Merola wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Lets not forget that the entire reason for the Shadow Lodge Faction was because enough people had gotten so angry with the Pathfinder Society's views on expendable agents, left them, and then someone finally got dirt on the "leadership" and force them to pretend to play nice and act like they cared.
And Aspis leaders are worse. While Society leadership often sends agents in without care, the Aspis regularly and deliberately give their own agents over for torture, mutilation, sacrifice, or worse in trade for items and favors.

So in other words...without Grandmaster Torch to introduce reforms, the Pathfinders would be just as bad as Aspis.

Got it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
pH unbalanced wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Lets not forget that the entire reason for the Shadow Lodge Faction was because enough people had gotten so angry with the Pathfinder Society's views on expendable agents, left them, and then someone finally got dirt on the "leadership" and force them to pretend to play nice and act like they cared.
And Aspis leaders are worse. While Society leadership often sends agents in without care, the Aspis regularly and deliberately give their own agents over for torture, mutilation, sacrifice, or worse in trade for items and favors.

So in other words...without Grandmaster Torch to introduce reforms, the Pathfinders would be just as bad as Aspis.

Got it.

Torch claimed to be advocating reforms, but in reality, he was just using his Shadow Lodge to wreak his own personal agenda of revenge. It's actually the influence of many, including the Silver Crusade, those few Andoran who AREN"T murderhobos, Amara Li and others who have recentered the Society's outlook. Also the Society's neccessary involvement in the Worldwound has forced new perspectives, and certain other events within the Decemvirate that has caused shakeups at the highest levels of the Society.

Torch may have contributed to this but this was more in the form of collateral effect as opposed to his main intent.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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DM Beckett wrote:
Again, it's all about what we are told and what we are shown. We are told that the PFS is a small, multinational, apolitical group of likeminded explorers and historians that seek to rescue lost lore from destruction and the ravages of time. We are instead shown that the PFS is a massive personal mercenary army that forces their will on all nations and peoples without repercussion and takes what they want to be locked away for their own uses and no one else's benefit, that has no problem strong arming, murdering, lying, cheating, or sabotaging to achieve their ends, even to the sale of possibly sending entire nations into chaos and poverty, that really only care about hoarding secrets from everyone else.

Wow.

Complete and utter misrepresentation of the stories told, all to paint the organization as Evil aligned.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
TOZ wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Again, it's all about what we are told and what we are shown. We are told that the PFS is a small, multinational, apolitical group of likeminded explorers and historians that seek to rescue lost lore from destruction and the ravages of time. We are instead shown that the PFS is a massive personal mercenary army that forces their will on all nations and peoples without repercussion and takes what they want to be locked away for their own uses and no one else's benefit, that has no problem strong arming, murdering, lying, cheating, or sabotaging to achieve their ends, even to the sale of possibly sending entire nations into chaos and poverty, that really only care about hoarding secrets from everyone else.

Wow.

Complete and utter misrepresentation of the stories told, all to paint the organization as Evil aligned.

Either that or they got a lot of Sheilda Hedemarch adventures...

4/5

I'm sorry but where is the Pathfinder Society described as a small organization? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I've read at least one source that claimed it was the largest, most powerful organization in the world and if its field agents were ever centralized it would likely constitute the largest standing army in Golarion.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

TOZ wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Again, it's all about what we are told and what we are shown. We are told that the PFS is a small, multinational, apolitical group of likeminded explorers and historians that seek to rescue lost lore from destruction and the ravages of time. We are instead shown that the PFS is a massive personal mercenary army that forces their will on all nations and peoples without repercussion and takes what they want to be locked away for their own uses and no one else's benefit, that has no problem strong arming, murdering, lying, cheating, or sabotaging to achieve their ends, even to the sale of possibly sending entire nations into chaos and poverty, that really only care about hoarding secrets from everyone else.

Wow.

Complete and utter misrepresentation of the stories told, all to paint the organization as Evil aligned.

Well, that's like, your opinion man.

And really that is exactly what it is, perception and opinion. How a person views the actions and subtext of an adventure and how things are presented, can greatly shift their perception of the Society and their actions.

Now granted one GM can present a scenario in such a way that it seems like plucky heroes acting for the greater good, while another GM could present the same story in a manner that makes it seem as aggressive interlopers with a sinister agenda.

You might think it is one way, the campaign leadership and the writers may even intend for it to be a certain way, but that doesn't mean that is how it ends up coming across.

I think an interesting study might be to find different groups of players based on amount played, Heavy, Regular, Casual... that do not frequent the forums and avoid the "board bias"... and poll them after a certain number of scenarios on what they think of the Society in terms of it's perceived alignment and agenda.

Grand Lodge 4/5

DM Beckett wrote:
In one scenario, the Pathfinder Society goes out of their way to sell a traumatized boy into slavery after helping them recover an agent that's been kidnapped, (and who knows something they don't want the authorities to find out about).

Don't recognize this one.

Quote:
In another the Pathfinder Society sends agents to murder people and set up the Aspis to take the blame. What's worse, the Aspis in this case where legitimately just trying to get what they where owed and rightfully deserved.

Do you mean the scenario where the VC deliberately, and with malice aforethought, tells the agents not to do anything that could harm anyone? And, IIRC, the only things to kill are the things that are going out of their way to attack you?

Quote:
Lets not forget that the entire reason for the Shadow Lodge Faction was because enough people had gotten so angry with the Pathfinder Society's views on expendable agents, left them, and then someone finally got dirt on the "leadership" and force them to pretend to play nice and act like they cared.

First off, false. The original Shadow Lodge wanted to become the Aspis Consortium. Seriously. The version that became a faction was a different organization. Not sure of the source, other than it was run by someone whose own version of morality makes the Decimvirate look like Paladins.

Quote:
Or that the entire point of the Silver Crusade was because the PFS had been banned in so many nations because of their well deserved reputation/(notoriety) that "leadership" needed to start changing face.

Also not true. Silver Crusade was because so many Paladin & LG CLeric players did not like that a CG organization was more interested in permanently preventing evil from holding sway.

Quote:
Or those time when they are given instructions "Leave no witnesses", or "I'll leave the details to you on how you do that", or other such things.

So, your real life manager tells you exactly how to perform your job? As to leave no witnesses, IIRC, the primary instructions were to not draw attention to yourselves, so make no witnesses.

Quote:
Or that time they steal a funerary mask that spontaneously raises angry undead and decide to take it back for further study.

Not sure I recognize this one.

Quote:
Or the time they use a friend asking for help to find a vanished young girl as an excuse to gain access to treasure, with helping their friend as an after thought, "Oh, and I you can also manage to save her, cool, but, your mission is to get in and steal _______. Understood?"

As mentioned, if this is the scenario I think it is, the mission was to explore the ruins. It is only after the mission is assigned that a devil worshiping evil woman attempts to get the Pathfinders to also find her daughter who has been missing, presumed dead, for ten years.

Quote:
Or that time they try to further instigate a war to make their little job easier.

Not recognized.

Quote:
Again, it's all about what we are told and what we are shown. We are told that the PFS is a small, multinational, apolitical group of likeminded explorers and historians that seek to rescue lost lore from destruction and the ravages of time. We are instead shown that the PFS is a massive personal mercenary army that forces their will on all nations and peoples without repercussion and takes what they want to be locked away for their own uses and no one else's benefit, that has no problem strong arming, murdering, lying, cheating, or sabotaging to achieve their ends, even to the sale of possibly sending entire nations into chaos and poverty, that really only care about hoarding secrets from everyone else.

Hard to show the smallness when you have tens of thousands of players.

Also hard to show repercussions on an episodic game, just like episodic TV tends to not include major changes, due to not knowing in what order the episodes will be aired (or played, for PFS).

Then again, there have been changes, there have been repercussions. That is what the A/B/C/D responses in reporting are there to guide.


I played a character all the way from level 1 to 14 in PFS, and not once did I get the impression that Pathfinders were evil or the bad guys. I wasn't even playing a good aligned character.

Seriously, I don't understand why some people have this intense desire to paint pathfinders as 'murderhobos' if they so much as enter a murderous cultist's cave without his permission.

4/5

Really, for me it's mostly about the feeling that I get from many scenarios that even when doing good is a large part of the scenario it's more of an incidental thing than something the PCs were sent out to do by the Society. Season 4 seems to take a bit more of turn in punishing players for taking an overly aggressive approach but there are still one or two scenarios that leave a bad taste and even in the more sane scenarios things aren't civil due to the orders of the Society but simply because of how the scenario was written.

Spoiler:
Off the top of my head I recall spending over an hour for Fabric of Reality trying to find a non-muderhobo approach before everyone pretty much threw up their hands and decided, well it looks like we'll go in swinging.

Fair enough that seasons 5 and 6 do a lot more to make the players look more like heroes but I've been through enough scenarios that took a concentrated effort to keep myself satisfied that my character is maintaining their good alignment that I've come to the opinion that good done by Pathfinders is done despite the Society not under its guidance.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
p-sto wrote:
I'm sorry but where is the Pathfinder Society described as a small organization? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I've read at least one source that claimed it was the largest, most powerful organization in the world and if its field agents were ever centralized it would likely constitute the largest standing army in Golarion.

That, I find extremely inplausible. The Aspis Society is far larger in numbers than the Pathfinders. It's a complete mercantile empire, comparable to the Dutch East India Company whereas the Pathfinders are more like a somewhat large League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

4/5

LazarX wrote:
p-sto wrote:
I'm sorry but where is the Pathfinder Society described as a small organization? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I've read at least one source that claimed it was the largest, most powerful organization in the world and if its field agents were ever centralized it would likely constitute the largest standing army in Golarion.
That, I find extremely inplausible. The Aspis Society is far larger in numbers than the Pathfinders. It's a complete mercantile empire, comparable to the Dutch East India Company whereas the Pathfinders are more like a somewhat large League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Glancing through a few sources I'm not really sure where I got that impression from. Though looking at the write up of the Society in the Inner Sea World Guide it hardly seems like a trivial entity even if the Consortium is better regarded in most circles.

Grand Lodge

Jason Hanlon wrote:
Ms. Pleiades wrote:

"Why are you here, Pathfinder!?"

"Sir, I'm here to unveil the secrets of the past!"
"WHY ARE YOU REALLY HERE?!"
"I CAME HERE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO HOME GAMES WITH ROOM!"

The first time someone told me this, I died a little inside.

Thankfully, I hear it very rarely.

(I'll welcome anyone to the table, but it breaks my fluff-filled little heart to hear someone say that the only reason they're playing a "pathfinder" is that it's a requirement of the campaign, and that they otherwise couldn't care less.)

My only solace is that because I GM for others in a home game I'm saving them from such a painful fate.

That and creating characters to fit right in with Pathfinder Society goals. Such as Frederick, my half-orc alchemist that, and I quote "Loves to murder evil people".

Shadow Lodge 4/5

TOZ wrote:

Wow.

Complete and utter misrepresentation of the stories told, all to paint the organization as Evil aligned.

These are all from scenarios I've run (many I have also played as well), and while its possible there is some interpretation involved, that is paraphrased from the scenarios themselves. Are you, and the other GMs sure its not that you are so used to the way you present the PFS and how long that we have been told they are not evil?

This is not at all a new debate, and I tend to see the same folks, generally 4+ Star GMs, too, that often advocate this idea, that the Society is heroic and not Evil.

In fact, in past PFS guides, there was actually rules included that allowed you to do evil acts if the VCs or Faction Heads gave you a mission.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Matrix Dragon wrote:

I played a character all the way from level 1 to 14 in PFS, and not once did I get the impression that Pathfinders were evil or the bad guys. I wasn't even playing a good aligned character.

Seriously, I don't understand why some people have this intense desire to paint pathfinders as 'murderhobos' if they so much as enter a murderous cultist's cave without his permission.

Could be a combination of things. Play styles differ, and especially if you have a consistent group or pool of players, the games probably going to be tailored a bit to them. Individual DMs interpret or present things differently, even as written. A lot of information may not be discovered, or especially for the older seasons, hidden from some players. It could also be that you missed some scenarios.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
If that's the scenario I'm thinking of, the mission is given to recover an item that you've been given permission to recover, then you're approached by someone who actively dislikes the Society to ask you to search for news about a girl that vanished a decade prior.

No, I was talking about

Spoiler:
Voice in the Void
.
Grand Lodge 4/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
DM Beckett wrote:
TOZ wrote:

Wow.

Complete and utter misrepresentation of the stories told, all to paint the organization as Evil aligned.

These are all from scenarios I've run (many I have also played as well), and while its possible there is some interpretation involved, that is paraphrased from the scenarios themselves. Are you, and the other GMs sure its not that you are so used to the way you present the PFS and how long that we have been told they are not evil?

Pretty sure. The Society has done some messed up things, but they're still firmly Neutral. And your paraphrasing is really, really off. Seriously, there are things the Society has done that are actually evil, without needing to misrepresent them.

DM Beckett wrote:
In fact, in past PFS guides, there was actually rules included that allowed you to do evil acts if the VCs or Faction Heads gave you a mission.

That rule was only about faction missions. And the faction heads aren't part of the Society (save for the Ambrus Valsin, and as of Season 6 kinda Zarta Dralneen).

DM Beckett wrote:
No, I was talking about ** spoiler omitted **.

In which case there's still no stealing involved, as you're still given explicit permission to take anything you find in that scenario. It's certainly not a good action, but it's not evil.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
Are you, and the other GMs sure its not that you are so used to the way you present the PFS and how long that we have been told they are not evil?

Yes, I am.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

Scarab Sages 4/5

DM Beckett wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
If that's the scenario I'm thinking of, the mission is given to recover an item that you've been given permission to recover, then you're approached by someone who actively dislikes the Society to ask you to search for news about a girl that vanished a decade prior.
No, I was talking about ** spoiler omitted **.

Spoiler:
As others mentioned, in the scenario, the owner of the artifacts offers them up as a reward for looking into the situation. There is no stealing.

The actual instructions, and the potential source of the dubious motives, in said scenario are “Go to the <REDACTED> and find out what happened to <REDACTED> and the watchmen. <REDACTED> would prefer them alive, of course, especially the <REDACTED> woman, but the Society is more interested in what she brought back with her."

So, yes, the society is, in this case, showing more interest in the artifacts than in saving the woman. The secondary success condition, however, takes another approach, so there was at least an effort to shift the goals of the Pathfinders more toward good.

There are also extenuating circumstances surrounding the particular Venture Captain involved that may explain his attitude and which are addressed in game in a scenario later that season (not with specific regards to this scenario, but with regards to his behavior in general).


At any rate, that example is from an earlier season scenario, and there have been definite efforts by the current campaign leadership to shift the Pathfinders more towards good. The elimination of the old faction missions and the introduction of secondary success conditions that are often centered around NOT killing people, or preventing people from being killed both serve to improve the image of the Pathfinders.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

Wait Wait WAIT:
You're using Adril Hestram as an example of why the Society is Evil? REALLY?
Grand Lodge 4/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
He hasn't played through the scenarios that would tell him why that's dumb.
Shadow Lodge 4/5

Oh, my sweet summer child...

Ignatious needs to join my Roll20 table.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Are the pathfinders the good guys? No.

Are they the BETTER guys? Yes.

Do you use your powers for good, or for AWESOME?

-j

Dark Archive 4/5

As a scion of the NOBLE EFREETI, my powers are by definition AWESOME.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Does it involve 4 parts, multiple planets, and a murder list that makes GMT look like a saint?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Murder implies they were not trying to kill you first.

Grand Lodge 4/5

DM Beckett wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Does it involve 4 parts, multiple planets, and a murder list that makes GMT look like a saint?

Yes, yes, and no. Unless you mean an NPC's murder list, in which case the last one is also yes.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Im only partially familiar, not having run it. Yet. Too many new players and extreme lack of scenarios everyone can play.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My online group is three scenarios from starting. Just saying.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I am about to deploy again. :(

Otherwise I would love to.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Damnation!

Grand Lodge 4/5

DM Beckett wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Does it involve 4 parts, multiple planets, and a murder list that makes GMT look like a saint?

Yes, yes, and no, even including the NPC's list.

Spoiler:
GMT is one of the few people that can make <redacted> look like a saint. Nothing, and no one, not even Zarta, can make GMT look like a saint.

I admit, given a choice between killing GMT and <redacted>, I would have to take some time to think about it. I think GMT would win, overall.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
** spoiler omitted **

*snort* ... muh-fft..... *Giggle*

Bwaaaaa HA HA HAAAAaaaaa!!!

Grand Lodge 3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you step back and look at the other parties in the world, at least the little we get to see through various resources and interactions in the scenarios, relatively speaking yes, the Society is good or at least has good intentions. I wouldn't even have to stop and consider it. Even the most chisel-jaw'ed paladin of Iomedae can get pretty shifty what with all of those "NOPE, he's evil, time to kill." moments if you try to apply an unrealistic concept of good and evil to them without considering context.

There isn't a faction/country in the world that doesn't make a number of arguments/actions that don't sit on ethically unstable ground. Everyone has their own motivations for which they are willing to cross lines for... The Aspis pretty much live on the other side of that line. I haven't gone through a TON of scenarios, but I've yet to see a situation where they are building orphanages or passing out coin to the needy (pastel happy land), or even just not straight up taking what they want without any attempts to negotiate their way to it. Most scenarios the PFS makes attempts to work with involved parties, or save lives in a scope that is usually a little larger than what PCs are directly involved in.

4/5

The Society has a lot of VC, all 'Human', all with desires and plans.

The Society is Neutral, not Lawful nor Good.

And the Society is not a NGO to Save the World, they have to pay bills, and to arrange themself with different Powers, to do their explore stuff.

So beside crushing Slave Operations(Slave Masters Mirror), assisting Mendev to defend the Wordwound ( Wardstone Patrol), saving Allies from Bad Things(Silvermount Collection), which sounds like 'good stuff', they work on trade relations (Merchants Wake), do their Indiana Jones Stuff (Halls of the Fleash Eaters/The Confirmation), besiide that, they do some shady/more greedy stuff.

So this sounds pretty solid for an organisation the is Pathfinders not Huey, Dewey, and Louie from the Boyscout Division.

And if you have problems with that moral stuff, get 2 Chars, and talk to the GM in advance, use goodie 2 shoes for the Save the World stuff and Mr.NoQuestionsAsked for the Scenarions with swinging moral compass.

3/5 5/55/5 *

I agree that how the Aspis are perceived has a lot to do with how a GM presents the Consortium. In my opinion I don't see them as necessarily evil, but they are underhanded and ruthless. However, I have never seen the authors of PFS scenario's portray them as having a better purpose than the Pathfinder Society. I liken it to the 'Froggy' story in "Lethal Weapon 4"... they're just different.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

I always thought the Society was dedicated to knowledge, which makes them pretty much neutral. That's the whole point of the Silver Crusade faction: let's do good while we're getting knowledge back. But given how Aspis is portrayed, they're solidly neutral evil: out for themselves and personal gain and who cares what happens to those they need to use to further those ends.

For example, see the Wonders in the Weave Duology.

4/5

Calenor wrote:


So beside crushing Slave Operations(Slave Masters Mirror), assisting Mendev to defend the Wordwound ( Wardstone Patrol), saving Allies from Bad Things(Silvermount Collection), which sounds like 'good stuff'

Okay

Slave Master's Mirror, the intended mission was actually breaking up a sophisticated spy network spying on well connected nobles. Freeing slaves was completely incidental.

Wardstone Patrol (and really most of season 5), I sort of forgot that Cheliax shifted its alignment to LG after this season.

Silvermount Collection, the Society has a long history of cleaning up the various messes of the Blakros family so they don't have to bear any responsibility, though admittedly the Blakroses are a bit more of a victim in that particular scenario.

Which pretty much was one of my previous points, for the most part even when the Society is doing "good" it's usually for a self serving reason.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

p-sto wrote:
Which pretty much was one of my previous points, for the most part even when the Society is doing "good" it's usually for a self serving reason.

Doing good for self-serving reasons is still good.

4/5

I suppose but it doesn't do much to change my opinion that the Pathfinder Society is a crass political machine. And again Cheliax, even evil organizations can be motivated to do good if the stakes are high enough.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

So in a real world situation, a guy breaks into a house to steal valuables. The house bursts into flame, at which point he notices a sleeping 2 year old child. He grabs the child (and the loot) and flees. In the end he has saved the child, but he has also bettered his situation. Is he evil? He didn't set the fire. He did break in. He did see and save the child.

I would argue he's purely Neutral. He did a bad thing and a good thing. It balances.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

James Martin wrote:

So in a real world situation, a guy breaks into a house to steal valuables. The house bursts into flame, at which point he notices a sleeping 2 year old child. He grabs the child (and the loot) and flees. In the end he has saved the child, but he has also bettered his situation. Is he evil? He didn't set the fire. He did break in. He did see and save the child.

I would argue he's purely Neutral. He did a bad thing and a good thing. It balances.

Chaotic Good.

Goes neutral if he asks for a reward from the parents he robbed.
Goes evil if he ransoms the child back to its parents/sells it into slavery.

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