Looking for advice on a debuff-style cleric.


Advice


Got a player who's trying to create an anti-support. LE cleric of Abbadar, has spellfocus in necromancy and enchantment. He started out without an archetype because none of them really appealed to his imagination, But at level 5 the only spells he really feels have a use is bestow curse and Doom.

He's currently a Law/travel domain. Personality and strategy-wise he's more of a stand behind the line (with his staff) and occasionally debuff an enemy. He's mostly an advisor to the party, trying to guide them in the process of creating a bastion of order out in the wild territory of the northeast river kingdoms.

We've got a ranger guide in the party who handles the bruising/survival needs, and a dwarven stone oracle who doubles as a tank/buffer/healer.
Just got a crossbow rogue/investigator who joined the party, who's a poisoner/master alchemist (not so much a damage dealer as a mr. gadget of irritants and other nasty chemical flasks).

Basically, level 5 now, with plans to progress through level 12 or so.
I'm gonna allow him to pick up an archetype and to trade in some feats, as we're in a building stage - time's in a fast forward as the party helps to build a mining town. Any advice for me? I'm a bit less familiar with cleric archetypes and channeling feats than I am with oracles and the like, and in what books I've got I'm sort of inclined to agree with him that there aren't a whole lot of early level debuffs for the clerics/oracle.

Oh, and on a side note, he's not willing to dip/multiclass. He's currently got toughness, lightning reflexes, spellfocus: necro/enchantment. Wears a breastplate, +1 staff.


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Is this a Cleric he has already played and is looking for advice on how to build him from here on out, or is he starting at level 5 and is building a character from the ground up? If the former... there's not much we can do to help. Debuff Clerics are heavily deity dependent; unlike the support cleric, most everything you use is coming from your domain. Abadar doesn't really have any good domains for a debuff cleric.

If he isn't set on a deity yet, then there are a few good options for a Lawful Evil character.

Dispater is a powerful option for negative energy channeling; the Rulership portfolio lets Clerics of Dispater add Daze to their channels through Variant Channeling.

Asmodeus is another good option; you'll want the Ash subdomain. Cloud of Smoke is a pretty nice debuff, and you get Stinking Cloud as a domain spell. Going with the Separatist archetype to get the Madness domain would be a good idea since his other domains are not as great.


no the game is already in progress, but because we're in a period of downtime (it will take anywhere from 6 months to a year to complete the construction of this little walled mining town) I'm allowing him to use that time to retroactively alter his feats/archetypes. He's set on Abadar unfortunately, and it's become an integral part of the plot anyway so, not much we can do there.

Really, i'm stumped myself - I've been scanning the books and the internet trying to compile a list of other options for feats/archetypes, but was hoping to enlist some brainpower toward that end from here. I've got a 4 hour deadline, as we're having the next session then. Really any advice is welcome, though I know it's already an uphill battle.


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Hmm... Yeah, the best he can do is take the Separatist archetype for the Madness domain then. Travel/Madness should be a decent enough set of domains.

Silver Crusade

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Abadar does provide a pretty good option for the Variant Channeling archetype. Negative channeling clerics of Abadar can take the Variant Channel (Cities) archetype with any new level.

Cities Variant Channel from Ultimate Magic wrote:
Heal— ... Harm—All creatures’ squares and threatened areas are treated as difficult terrain until the start of your next turn (these areas move with the creatures rather than being fixed in place at the time of the channeling). Until the end of your next turn, creatures gain a channel penalty on Acrobatics checks and overrun attempts to move through these squares.

Equip some members of your party with Featherstep Slippers. A party composed of characters who wish only to close with the foe and Full Attack will get little benefit. A party of PCs using reach tactics will find the benefits of that combat style greatly magnified. Thus, this debuff option is situational.


Nice guys. Never even noticed those variant channel rules. HUGE help that's opening windows, -- on a side note, the ranger guide already has some constant effect featherstep boots, and the dwarf oracle's whole MO has been to drop stonecalls and occasionally spike burst, all of which crerate a difficult terrain environment. The ranger's been using enlarge, and I think he said at level 5 he was taking combat reflexes (already is going the ovverrun/greater overrun route, but with reach and combat reflexes this is gonna shine)

I'm taking both of your advices.. erm... not sure if that's grammatically correct. Advice? meh.. anyway, this will be right up his alley-- Separatist archetype: Tyranny, Cites, or Law. All three variant channels will synch up with what he's looking for. Probably gonna advise him to drop toughness and take extra channeling/selective channel depending on what he picks.

If I could give you pie or candy through the screen I would, peace!


Update -- Talking it out now- he may end up converting his LAw domain to the tyranny subdomain, then using variant channeling for Tyranny:
"Slavery/Tyranny: Heal—Creatures ignore fatigue and exhaustion for 1 minute. Harm—Creatures gain a channel penalty on saves against compulsions, pain, and stun for 1 minute."

Probably trading out one of his feats for selective channels.

Thanks again, totally woulda missed these options.


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Variant offensive channeling can be extremely useful - but the tyranny effect is not good - you want to focus on something that is a debuff in and of itself - difficult terrain is a meaningful effect that can have a big impact.

Madness is a great debuff domain but also WAY out there for Abadar - considering it's exclusively associated with chaotic deities and effects I personally would be unlikely to allow it for forbidden rites.

Rulership could be another great option for a tyrannical abadaran, and dazing everyone who fails their save is awesome.

I helped a player build a LN(E) Zon-Kulthon cleric for kingmaker, and they were the most powerful/effective member of the party to the extent that we did the opposite of what you're doing now, and rebuilt him to tone him down.

Spoiler:
I don't know if you had the River Kingdoms army/knights encounter yet (in which a force of ~50 mostly mounted knights and archers are headed for Oleg's... our party did it at 7th level which might've been late but I can't recall) but that... did not go as planned.

How is your debuff cleric spending their time in combat? You say mostly they stand around and sometimes cast a bestow curse or so? If he is mostly focusing on single target effects and save-or-suck spells there isn't going to be a huge amount he can do.

A couple points of general advice for the debuff cleric that might be helpful.

Remember your goal is largely to make your enemies day terrible, while the rest of your party cleans up, NOT to end encounters yourself (though sometimes you can do this). Stacking effects are your friends - a shaken, fatigued, sickened enemy moving through difficult terrain is not going to be an effective opponent, and these effects are usually easier to get off against all or most of your foes. If you're spending your actions(and spells) on single target save-or-sucks with a 50% chance or lower of working, you'll frequently be disappointed.

It's a good idea to prepare a small number of single target spells to back up your battlefield control functions. It's true that first and second level spells won't hold too much that's useful for debuffing.

At 2nd, consider Cloud of Seasickness, Tremor Blast (assuming it uses CL+Wis, as it should), Silence, and possibly darkness (an extremely underrated spell). At 3rd, Visions of Hell and Stoneshape should approach "always prepared". Chain of Perdition is quite powerful.

At the point when you start bringing out visions of hell, you start being able to stack scaling debuffs - namely shaken/frightened/panicked. Doom becomes much more powerful when you've mass-feared everyone with visions of hell and you're totally eliminating single targets on a difficult save for a 1st level. At 7th level, you have aura of doom practically all day and now you have two power mass-fear effects for stacking. Fleshworm Infestation can be a fight ending debuff against a BBE(or good, perhaps?)G.

(Note for the GM: RAW Sickened and nauseated are not explicitly stacking effects the way fear and fatigue effects are, and while I think this is deliberate, MANY effects do use them as scaling debuffs, and there is some space and common sense where I think this is appropriate. In my games, single target sickening effects upgrade to nauseated in an already sickened target, but effects like cloud of sickness and stench do not.)

As a de-buff cleric, you have to be very tactical in how you apply your abilities - at least half of the very powerful spells in your list can potentially hurt your allies as well (a nice thing about visions of hell is that as a glamer, properly warned/prepared parties should get a significant save bonus) - the key is that you should be placing your effects with caution, and choosing effects that hurt your enemies worse than your allies, but at the end of the day don't be afraid to cause one or two of your allies to take a penalty when you have a spell that can totally turn the course of the fight.

Metamagic is your friend. That may mean investing in metamagic feats and preparing them (sub optimal, but can be good), and it might mean investing in a MM rod or 4. A reach rod bestow curse can make all the difference. A bouncing spell can turn a very risky save-or-suck into a much more sure-shot. Elemental or descriptor effects can be made much more powerful - for example a shadow grasp darkness/deeper darkness can end fights.

Finally, remember that the cleric is a *generalist* - this is *always* true, no matter what build you pick. You have medium BAB, medium armor, and a million useful spells (and not that many powerful debuffs in your 1st and 2nd slots) - you should always be preparing spells to fill gaps in your allies abilities, the occasional buff, etc. Don't just stand in the back and do nothing - if you're not debuffing, throw divine favor and bulls strength on yourself and go hit things. Don't be afraid to throw Bless up just because you aren't a 'support' cleric.

Debuff clerics can be a lot of fun, and very very powerful. I hope it goes well for your player!


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The best you have with this deity and domain set is find the best debuff spells possible (bestow curse) and metamagic the heck out of it. Have him talk to the DM and as him if it would be ok to trade in -4 to all rolls and go -6 to one type of roll or something so you have a niche.


Arnakalar wrote:

Variant offensive channeling can be extremely useful - but the tyranny effect is not good - you want to focus on something that is a debuff in and of itself - difficult terrain is a meaningful effect that can have a big impact.

Madness is a great debuff domain but also WAY out there for Abadar - considering it's exclusively associated with chaotic deities and effects I personally would be unlikely to allow it for forbidden rites.

Rulership could be another great option for a tyrannical abadaran, and dazing everyone who fails their save is awesome.

I helped a player build a LN(E) Zon-Kulthon cleric for kingmaker, and they were the most powerful/effective member of the party to the extent that we did the opposite of what you're doing now, and rebuilt him to tone him down. ** spoiler omitted **

How is your debuff cleric spending their time in combat? You say mostly they stand around and sometimes cast a bestow curse or so? If he is mostly focusing on single target effects and save-or-suck spells there isn't going to be a huge amount he can do.

A couple points of general advice for the debuff cleric that might be helpful.

Remember your goal is largely to make your enemies day terrible, while the rest of your party cleans up, NOT to end encounters yourself (though sometimes you can do this). Stacking effects are your friends - a shaken, fatigued, sickened enemy moving through difficult terrain is not going to be an effective opponent, and these effects are usually easier to get off against all or most of your foes. If you're spending your actions(and spells) on single target save-or-sucks with a 50% chance or lower of working, you'll frequently be disappointed.

It's a good idea to prepare a small number of single target spells to...

Thanks, but session just ended, and we came to a solution. First, he's taking tyranny subdomain, because it suits his character more and fits in well with the goals of the campaign (to create an iron-fisted order out of one of the most chaotic regions in the river kingdoms).

Second, he traded in toughness (which at level 1 he just took because nothing yet really appealed) for selective channeling ( so he can exclude allies now, well, 3 of them at least, but its a four-man party including himself.)

He's working his way toward the variant channeling at his own insistence, "growing toward it" so that he'll start getting those benefits at levels 7 to 10, depending on events in the story. Because he's so caster-oriented and non-direct-combative, I gave him a story-line bonus trait/feat: Iron prophet, for spell DCs/concentration checks when opposing chaos (or chaotic enemies, basically), he gets +1/+2. I think he's used his staff once maybe so far in the entire campaign, barring defense... And it was to crush the skull of an orcish Priestess of lamashtu, that our ranger guide had put to 0 earlier in the combat.

Now add in that he's doing a lot of debuffs and compulsion -type effects, had a bunch of spells geared toward causing pain/fear (doom,ray of sickening -generally necro/enchantment heavy, without raising the dead and the like). So the tyranny was a natural fit for him. It's an AOE channel, that reduces enemies' ability to save vs compulsions, stuns and pain.

Anyway, thanks for the input everyone. Thumbs up to everybody.

Oh, ps Renegade, I'm his GM and we've already talked about just that. You and I are on the same page here: He's already slotted 3 of his 4 level 3 spells as Bestow Curse. He's already slapped one on the foreman, for skimming. At 7 I think he's taking either that bouncing spell or Persistent spell feat, to make sure it lands.


By the way, this story isn't preset, or a module, we're kind of making it up as we go. All Lawful Evil party, they're now officially Abbadar separatists (except for the dwarf oracle, who's just a crotchety bastard expecting to be paid for the cathedral he's going to construct when it's all complete) I'm scheming, as we type this, to create some good-guy adventurer teams who will be coming to put a stop to them.... *rubs his hands mischievously*


Ah didn't see you were the GM :) one other thing that might be worthwhile for consideration is being a theologian. I don't have the charts or books to find all the relevant information but if there is a domain that could give more debuff spells he doesn't already have that's good. However the real meat of that possibility is adding free metamagic feats that don't add to the spell size every 5 levels. Bouncing spell would likely be the best selection but maybe someone has a better idea. Like I said I don't have the material right now.

PS: I do know that for madness based debuffers theologian has been my go to cleric because I like the save or die of phantasmic killer. I've even been know to eldritch heritage into arcane bloodline just to get that spell.

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