Collecting FAQ clicks: Feats that let you Take 10 - The Redux


Rules Questions


11 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

This FAQ was presented before by Jiggy, and it was marked as "answered in FAQ", but it has not been answered so I am going to try this again.
I am just going to copy and paste what Jiggy wrote the first time instead of fumbling over the words myself.

Jiggy wrote:

There's some disagreement on this, and I think the conflict is reasonable:

In the Skills chapter, the rules for Take 10 state that you can do so unless the situation prevents you (this is not a discussion about that, so take it elsewhere). In certain skill descriptions (UMD, and a footnote in Swim), T10 is forbidden.

One would be led to conclude, then, that all the rest of the skills are eligible for T10 unless the situation prevents it.

But then there are things like the bard's Lore Master ability, the Childlike feat, and a couple of others that say "you can take 10 on such-and-such a check" but do not include the phrase "even while threatened or distracted".

There are two interpretations of this fact:
1. Since it doesn't say "even while threatened", it doesn't allow you to do so. Therefore, it only allows you to take 10 under mundane circumstances. This in turn implies that the associated skill is normally not eligible for T10. If this is the case, then the Skills chapter needs errata to reflect that restriction, so please click "FAQ" at the top of this post if you believe this interpretation is correct.

2. The extra line ("even while threatened") that appears in some abilities is inherent to the abilities, and those places where it is spelled out is merely a courtesy. The Skills chapter is correct, and only UMD (and certain instances of Swim) is excluded from normal T10 rules. If this is the case, then having a FAQ entry clarifying this would be helpful, so please click "FAQ" at the top of this post.

If you're not sure which of these two interpretations is correct, then guess what? Please click "FAQ" at the top of this post so this can be clarified.

If you feel like debating how T10 works in general, then please take it elsewhere.

Thanks!


9 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

The problem is, he didn't phrase this in the form of a FAQ question. So he doesn't win any money for playing Jeopardy.

A better phrasing should be:
Can you take 10 even while threatened or distracted if you possess the bard's Lore Master ability or similar abilities that grant you the ability to take 10 on a skill where you can normally take 10?

Grand Lodge

gauss wrote:

The problem is, he didn't phrase this in the form of a FAQ question. So he doesn't win any money for playing Jeopardy.

A better phrasing should be:
Can you take 10 even while threatened or distracted if you possess the bard's Lore Master ability or similar abilities that grant you the ability to take 10 on a skill where you can normally take 10?

Except that either way that was answered it would still leave questions. People use "Lore Master" and "Childlike" to infer that Knowledge and Disguise rolls, respectively, are ineligible for Take 10 mechanics. It's not an unreasonable inference. The big confusion seems to be how to reconcile the two rules.


It is a completely unreasonable inference. The rules do not support that you cannot take 10 unless it states that you cannot. ALL skills can take 10 unless specifically stated otherwise (such as UMD) or if you are in a stressful situation where take 10 is not allowed (such as combat).

People really need to stop inferring general rules from specific ones. Specific rules can provide exceptions to general rules, they cannot define a general rule.

Additionally, sometimes abilities or feats are written that completely violate the general rule.
Example: until the Prone Shooter errata the feat Prone Shooter negated a penalty that did not exist and yet people tried to infer some meaning from this.

Or how about this one, people keep trying to infer that Channel Positive Energy or Channel Negative Energy do not work on Outsiders because of the existence of Alignment Channel.

Point is, a specific rule does not define the general rule, especially when it is pretty clear that the specific rule is written badly or incorrectly.

So, where does that leave us:
1) Most skills allow you to take 10 unless distracted or threatened.
2) Some abilities allow you to take 10 without stating that this is an exception to the rule that you cannot take 10 while distracted or threatened.
3) These abilities give you NOTHING as written, so many people (correctly) assume that the ability is intended to give you the ability to take 10 while distracted or threatened.

Hence, the wording I used as a suggested FAQ question.

Grand Lodge

Gauss wrote:

It is a completely unreasonable inference. The rules do not support that you cannot take 10 unless it states that you cannot. ALL skills can take 10 unless specifically stated otherwise (such as UMD) or if you are in a stressful situation where take 10 is not allowed (such as combat).

People really need to stop inferring general rules from specific ones. Specific rules can provide exceptions to general rules, they cannot define a general rule.

Man, I don't really want to argue with you about it; I happen to be on your side of it. I'm just saying I understand the logic. Inductive reasoning can be dangerous, but it has its place. And I know very reasonable people, including the VC in my area, who make that interpretation. He doesn't cram it down his GM's throats, and at my tables, I'll allow T10 on knowledge checks (out of combat) until he makes it a thing. But it would be nice to have something to point to besides JJ's reply in the "Ask Anything" thread. (My VC and others I've talked to are of the opinion that Jacobs is not a rules guy, but more of a concept guy - thus his opinions don't carry the same weight as a FAQ.) And it comes up enough at tables I'm on that I thought it was worthy of a FAQ request, so I flagged it.

If you don't want the FAQ, cool, don't flag it. But let's take any debate to another thread. :)


tchrman35, you were the one that started this element of the discussion.

FAQing wraithstrike's reproduction of Jiggy's post will not help.
Why? Because the Devs have stated that unless a post has a clear FAQ question they will not answer it. Jiggy's post does not have a clear FAQ question.

If you want to come up with an alternate FAQ question that is clear and concise then feel free, that is what I did.

I wont bother wasting a FAQ on something the Devs are going to ignore because of improper phrasing.

As for your VC or anyone else that thinks you need a special ability to Take 10, they should read the rules on Take 10. Nowhere in there does it state you need a special ability or that you can only Take 10 with certain skills.

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