No offense Fergie, but making your point with supportive rule citations would work a lot better.
That's a weird philosophical question that doesn't have much to do with the rules. That has rules for how Reincarnate works, but it still doesn't say that a dead character's ability scores go away.
Being unconscious also doesn't change your wisdom score according to all of those sources, so I would imagine that a dead character still has all it's ability scores it just can't do anything because it's dead. I can't find anything in the rules that would lead me to believe otherwise.OK, sure. But do those scores stay with the body, or the soul, which has departed and is in another plane?
Hint: Reincarnation spell.
My point is that the characters physical body is an inanimate object, with no wisdom score - thus an object.
I still have found nothing to support this. Please find me something to support this.
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Shadow dude hits you, and you drop. Roll 1d4. Breath of life happens, and rules say enough hp/no death effects = you're alive. Congratulations, you no longer have the dead condition. Enjoy your helpless state of 0 str.
This is a strange corner case where a shadow could drop you. Then you become a shadow and breathe of life brings you back, all in the same round just because breath of life does not have the clause that prevents undead from coming back to life, like raise dead does. But, because you are still at 0 Strength from the shadows strength damage, you die again instantly. And a second shadow can pop out. Repeat this process for as many shadows as you have breathe of life spells. This assumes you roll 1 on the raise as shadow roll.
The simplest way to get the character back after a shadow has slain it, is to kill the spawned shadow and use a resurrection spell.
If you're an object breath of life doesn't work. Raise dead wouldn't work nor would resurrection etc. You're not an object, but a living breathing man who deserves to be respected and loved just like everybody else!
Nicely put.
No offense Fergie, but making your point with supportive rule citations would work a lot better.
opps, changed it to the following post in the thread.
Even if all else fails, I still stand by my original statement that it is unlikely for the surprise round to down a PC, as the expected Strength damage by two Greater Shadows is 9.
This was a very unlikely surprise round. I have no issue with the fact that I died. I just have issue with the lack of ways to deal with it. Breath of Life seems that it should work because that's what Breath of life says, I just find it incredible that there are no other options to stop the super death.
No offense Fergie, but making your point with supportive rule citations would work a lot better.You would think so right?
Yes, then where I immediately pointed out that Gentle Repose targets a "corpse touched" (not object touched) and that the CRB says that even if the save section says "(object)" it doesn't mean that the spell has to target an object.
EDIT
Additionally you have heavily edited that post adding more irrelevant information, and included "see gentle repose" under your quote the "target, object" section of the CRB, which does not say anything about Gentle Repose and could be confusing/misleading to others reading your post.
Voideternal, I always encourage the players I'm with to use their spells tactically, but they seem to always fail on doing so. I usually am going "it's the 5th round... anyone want to finally roll a knowledge on this thing?" And yesterday in a different game I was encouraged to open a door which I asked for a perception for traps, and was told, "this is obviously going to set off a trap, and in fact, it's not even really a door..."
Detect evil I believe should have been more than sufficient, and my character was sniffing around with scent. Personally I'm judged for being too tactical and cautious by others, and rarely recognized for my successful ideas. It just stings when the time you used to do preventative measures is overlooked, and when others just assume you're just wreckless when they hear the short version of the story.
I'd love to hear how others play pathfinder while they go everywhere casting death ward 24/7, and I imagine other spells as well. I've never had someone that paranoid at my table, and the resources to spend on that ironically would be crippling.
No offense Fergie, but making your point with supportive rule citations would work a lot better.opps, changed it to the following post in the thread.
I appreciated you correction bacons mistake on misunderstanding - from 0, but there's nothing supporting becoming an object with what you posted or that your stats goto -, or all 0, or that your soul is in possession of your ability scores.
Detect Evil should have worked. Even so, the Open/Close cantrip (opening doors from a distance) really should be standard operating procedure, perhaps followed by sending an illusion into a room to draw out the ambush (given how often that seems to happen).
3.X and PF seems to focus more on power builds and "kick in the door" style rather than the more cautious approach that I recall from 2E and earlier games. I know my cavalier has been called a coward for asking for an open/close spell (which he isn't; he just has 16 Wis and tons of experience with ambushes).
Human Fighter and I have been called paranoid cowards in a homegame by a guy who likes to walk into rooms, get destroyed, and deplete our precious resources. We are very cautious players because we like to stay alive. Detect spells are awesome and should save me like crazy, unfortunately in my PFS experience these spells are not allowed to function properly.
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To clarify:
Challenging adventures where making stupid mistakes, or having a run of bad luck in a fight, results in character death = good.
Juvenile DMs who setup "rocks fall, you die, no save" situations = bad.
If you're unable to differentiate between those two scenarios, please don't post a reply insinuating someone else doesn't.
Also, to all of you who came up with the fantasy medieval SWAT style, magic assisted door breach procedure that a party would need to use before every room, how do you finish a dungeon in anything less than a decade? If you're the kind of DM who runs games where every door has a disintegrate trap on the handle, don't roll your eyes when my party essentially writes a macro for moving through doors. "Here's our marching order, spells we cast, trap detection rolls, readied actions, and contingencies. Assume we do that for every single door in your game. Now let's get on with the adventure."
I'd love to hear how others play pathfinder while they go everywhere casting death ward 24/7, and I imagine other spells as well. I've never had someone that paranoid at my table, and the resources to spend on that ironically would be crippling.
Truthfully, the only characters that I think could have survived that surprise round are ones with over 16 Strength. And they would probably have gone down with the next attack if they didn't win initiative.
As for coming back: can a restoration (lesser restoration potion?) and a breath of life be cast on the next round with two greater shadows hanging about? If find that unlikely. Killing the shadow spawn and paying the 32PP or 10910gp (not including negative level tax) is much more doable especially in tier 10-11.
I would rather this thread remain about how to deal with death by shadows and if when you die you become an object (I still don't think you do), rather than about preventative tactics. The issue was that there was no reason to believe that it was a death cabinet.
I read the thing on death that makes the lack of healing make sense. Things were worded stupid with people telling me that I become an object when I'm dead.
Does destroying the shadow before I raise as a shadow prevent me from doing so?
Yeah, that other thread was a mess. Lots of confusion going on there, though the outcome was ultimately the same.
I'd love to hear how others play pathfinder while they go everywhere casting death ward 24/7, and I imagine other spells as well. I've never had someone that paranoid at my table, and the resources to spend on that ironically would be crippling.Truthfully, the only characters that I think could have survived that surprise round are ones with over 16 Strength. And they would probably have gone down with the next attack if they didn't win initiative.
As for coming back: can a restoration and a breath of life be cast on the next round with two greater shadows hanging about? If find that unlikely. Killing the shadow spawn and paying the 32PP or 10910gp (not including negative level tax) is much more doable especially in tier 10-11.
One of our players who we often game with has a one time a day super shadow destruction technique with his character. He made his sword do force damage and went all out killing both advanced greater shadows before they got another attack in.
Maybe you think I disagree with the high risk of death and stuff, but I don't. Shadows aren't a joke, and even with the breath of life, any attack would bring.the character back into dead mode. I was a little ticked off with what initially happened, but I let it slide because I'm not the gm with the scenario. What I didn't enjoy was the breath of life not working, and being told "shadows are special, and he's now an object".
For those who ask about swat team/taking forever. We ask our gm to assume we do it, or ask to macro, but they refuse. If the players are good enough, or we have played before, we do this extremely fast and efficiently. I like to role play, and going into a dark deep dungeon where insane monsters dwell such as mimics, transparent cubes that pretend to be the floor and incorporeal creatures that live in the wall/floor, I tend to be a little cautious. My home game with bacon (carrion crown) I'm a lawful good follower of Torag, so strategy is a priority.
To all those saying, "Detect Evil should have worked" -- we don't know what the door was made of other than the OP's description of "some brass stone door stuff"
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Quite true, this is another reason why I wasn't too upset over that and also why I don't go crazy with trying to detect.
What I didn't enjoy was the breath of life not working, and being told "shadows are special, and he's now an object".
While I agree with the result (breath of life not working) I disagree with the 'object' reasoning. My reasoning is that breath of life fixes some hit point damage and in so doing returns you to life if enough was healed. But it does not repair the strength damage done by the shadow. The damage is still more than the characters current strength (bull strength could work here) and the shadow's ability says the creature dies if this is the case. So the character dies again.
My home game with bacon (carrion crown) I'm a lawful good follower of Torag, so strategy is a priority.
I am also running Carrion Crown atm. The players have no real strategy. A few have pegged in suitably memorable ways (like a dwarf paladin falling into a vat of acid). Ah, good times.
What I didn't enjoy was the breath of life not working, and being told "shadows are special, and he's now an object".While I agree with the result (breath of life not working) I disagree with the 'object' reasoning. My reasoning is that breath of life fixes some hit point damage and in so doing returns you to life if enough was healed. But it does not repair the strength damage done by the shadow. The damage is still more than the characters current strength (bull strength could work here) and the shadow's ability says the creature dies if this is the case. So the character dies again.
The real mystery is if I die again, or I'm just unconscious with 0 STR because the death part got "undone", considering that 0 STR normally doesn't kill you.
Avian, I don't understand why you disagree with breath of life by saying it just fixes hit point damage. The spell reads that if you're not under a death effect, and are at a living hp, then you're alive. You'd be at 0 str. If you just die again because you feel the 0 str keeping you dead, then regardless if you came back to life with a resurrection or whatever, any time your str goes to 0, you'd have to live it all over again.
Personally, Breath of life should work as it is the entire point of the spell.
You would have 0 Str of course upon breathing again. You wouldn't fall back dead (due to shadow str drain), as you already died and had that status ailment cleared. You would just be at 0 str with all that would entail. Shadows wouldn't infinitely be spawning with every casting of Breath of Life as you cartoonishly wake up and die over and over.. common sense is still assumed every edge case cannot be explicitly written, we as reasoning people can fill in the blanks a bit.
GM disallowed something that should have worked (BoL), unless shadows explicitly state breath of life won't work.
I'll tell you right now, they don't say that it doesn't work.
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a) Create Spawn (Su) A humanoid creature killed by a shadow's Strength damage becomes a shadow under the control of its killer in 1d4 rounds.
B) Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life.
You have been killed by the shadow? Yes
BOL has brought you back to life? RAW, yes, even if it hasn't healed the relevant damage.
It matter? RAW, no. You have been killed by a shadow and you don't have applied an effect that change that event. You have been brought back ti life, but you have still been killed by a shadow and become a shadow after 1d4 rounds.
BoL point is that it bring you back from being killed by hit point damage, not from other kinds of damage.
OK, BaconBastard, I'll try one last shot at this, since I really like your name.
What is the wisdom score of a piece of bacon? Cooked or uncooked, it doesn't matter.
Let's just say it was made from a boar.
BoL point is that it bring you back from being killed by hit point damage, not from other kinds of damage.
Please cite a source for that.
Note: PRD - "In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score."
I have a feeling people aren't actually reading what breath of life does, and assumes it does something less than it actually does.
I'm on my phone, so I'll just link this Breath of life
OK, BaconBastard, I'll try one last shot at this, since I really like your name.
What is the wisdom score of a piece of bacon? Cooked or uncooked, it doesn't matter.
Let's just say it was made from a boar.
Fergie, I'm glad that your last shot also does not cite any rules, and that a dead creature is a creature that has the "dead" condition, and that condition doesn't say it effects any of your ability scores in anyway.
You have been bestowed the wisdom of bacon from the sacred text of the CRB.
Raise dead has specific text regarding "I was killed by stat drain/damage," while Breath of life does not.
Wanna start splitting hairs with wording? A shadow doesn't kill you, it's strength damage equaling or exceeding your total strength kills you. Since you don't get healed by Breath of Life you still have that damage.
Fun fact I just learned by looking it up, Greater Shadow does not create spawn. Ergo Raise Dead would work and would bring you back with 1 strength point.
Cheaper than resurrection, I suppose.
YEESSSSSSS!!!! THANK YOU!!! MY PRECIOUS PRESTIGE!!!
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Wanna start splitting hairs with wording? A shadow doesn't kill you, it's strength damage equaling or exceeding your total strength kills you. Since you don't get healed by Breath of Life you still have that damage.
Breath of life just says that if it's been less than a round and you have the HP/con straight, that you're alive again.
OK, BaconBastard, I'll try one last shot at this, since I really like your name.
What is the wisdom score of a piece of bacon? Cooked or uncooked, it doesn't matter.
Let's just say it was made from a boar.
Fergie, I'm glad that your last shot also does not cite any rules, and that a dead creature is a creature that has the "dead" condition, and that condition doesn't say it effects any of your ability scores in anyway.
You have been bestowed the wisdom of bacon from the sacred text of the CRB.
So... 13 is your answer then?
So... 13 is your answer then?OK, BaconBastard, I'll try one last shot at this, since I really like your name.
What is the wisdom score of a piece of bacon? Cooked or uncooked, it doesn't matter.
Let's just say it was made from a boar.
Fergie, I'm glad that your last shot also does not cite any rules, and that a dead creature is a creature that has the "dead" condition, and that condition doesn't say it effects any of your ability scores in anyway.
You have been bestowed the wisdom of bacon from the sacred text of the CRB.
RAW says sure. Find me a thing in the rules that says that you become an object and then we can stop having intelligent/sentient bacon.
Find me a thing in the rules that says that you become an object and then we can stop having intelligent/sentient bacon.
No thanks.
RAW says sure. Find me a thing in the rules that says that you become an object and then we can stop having intelligent/sentient bacon.So... 13 is your answer then?OK, BaconBastard, I'll try one last shot at this, since I really like your name.
What is the wisdom score of a piece of bacon? Cooked or uncooked, it doesn't matter.
Let's just say it was made from a boar.
Fergie, I'm glad that your last shot also does not cite any rules, and that a dead creature is a creature that has the "dead" condition, and that condition doesn't say it effects any of your ability scores in anyway.
You have been bestowed the wisdom of bacon from the sacred text of the CRB.
Rule 0, AKA GM's RAI. That is all.
Avian, I don't understand why you disagree with breath of life by saying it just fixes hit point damage. The spell reads that if you're not under a death effect, and are at a living hp, then you're alive. You'd be at 0 str. If you just die again because you feel the 0 str keeping you dead, then regardless if you came back to life with a resurrection or whatever, any time your str goes to 0, you'd have to live it all over again.
Resurrection fixes all attribute damage, because that is what the spell does (unless full vigor and health means something else) if not that then at very least it does what raise dead does and "any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1". Or how else would you be raised after taking a boatload of Con damage?
To reiterate:
The last line in the shadows strength damage entry reads "A character dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score." This is still true after BoL. So the character dies again.
So when I say BoL doesn't work I mean it functions as a spell and returns the creature to life but it does not function as a solution in this case as the creature would simply die again from the shadows strength damage.
BoL is not a cure all. BoL is a heal spell with a special "get out of hp loss death" clause. It can't bring back creatures slain by Con damage. The shadow ability makes your Str function in much the same way.
Regardless, this is a tough ruling to ask of any GM.
Edit: also this thread
OP did not die, rather is unconscious.
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability...If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score.
A greater shadow's touch deals 1d8 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.
Therefore, the only way you can die from a shadow's attack is if your ability score is 8 (if the shadow rolls max damage) or lower. Even if you are hit multiple times each attack checks against the actual strength score separately. So unless he had 8 or less strength either naturally, or through ability drain (not damage) from some other source he is merely unconscious.
Cast Lesser Restoration a few times and he's good as new.
SirGauntley, I think someone else was on that in the other thread I made, or in this one, but you presented in in a very clear way that it's crystal clear. Thank you for that wonderful bolding of RAW.
I'm glad I could help.
Of course I suppose that I didn't really address OP's question if you DO manage to die from it. I just proved that it is fairly difficult for a shadow to actually kill you.
OP did not die, rather is unconscious.
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability...If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score.A greater shadow's touch deals 1d8 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.Therefore, the only way you can die from a shadow's attack is if your ability score is 8 (if the shadow rolls max damage) or lower. Even if you are hit multiple times each attack checks against the actual strength score separately. So unless he had 8 or less strength either naturally, or through ability drain (not damage) from some other source he is merely unconscious.
Cast Lesser Restoration a few times and he's good as new.
Although that's RAW, and I understand the case being made (and there could be one), it's certainly not RAI. The intent behind that rule is, if the Strength damage being dealt, regardless of it being checked with a temporary loss via damage, permanent via drain, whatever, it causes the creature to die (and then it becomes a Shadow shortly after). I mean, PFS GMs may be wonky when it comes to certain rulings, but this isn't something PFS GMs are known to mess up on. (Or cheese.)
Strength damage is not strength drain, but strength damage just like hit point damage does accumulate.
So if you take 8 points in the first hit, and 8 points in the second hit you have taken 16 strength damage.
If you score is only 14 then you die(if a shadow is involved) because 14 is less than 16.
"This" strength damage is referring to the strength damage from a shadow, not any one hit.
edit: You can try to make this argument in PFS or at a GM's table, but shadows have worked this way for a long time, and they won't really care so trying to push this argument really won't matter. At best someone will start and FAQ and the devs will say the damage accumlates, which means people will run it the way they always have.
I don't think anyone can argue against the RAW.
RAI, you die, then breath of life brings you back to life. What people need to figure out is if that negative energy effect sticks onto that ability damage you took. I don't see any evidence that is does stick around, and it seems that it's the attack that is made that would kill you.
If people believe that you wake up to die again, then your character would forever be haunted regardless if you survived a shadow, to die if your str score met or exceeded the current score. There's no way that can be correct.
...A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.Therefore, the only way you can die from a shadow's attack is if your ability score is 8 (if the shadow rolls max damage) or lower. Even if you are hit multiple times each attack checks against the actual strength score separately. So unless he had 8 or less strength either naturally, or through ability drain (not damage) from some other source he is merely unconscious.
I imagine many(most?) people, including me, would rule that the shadow's damage treats strength damage as if it reduced the str ability score. AFAIK that's how it worked in 3.5, and the shadow's strength damage ability is a victim of the wonky ability damage rules. I am not disagreeing by strict RAW, just pointing out that many people wouldn't rule that way.
Also, quick question, does anybody know if a shadow could still kill a 9 str character on a crit. I ask because I can't find any rules text that states that ability damage on a crit gets multiplied. I can find it for critical hits on touch spells, but not attacks in general.
"This" strength damage is referring to the strength damage from a shadow, not any one hit.
Hmm...That makes sense too. I guess my interpretation makes shadows a fairly silly threat.
I feel like one of those rules lawyers trying to exploit every little loophole. And I hate those guys, haha.
I don't think anyone can argue against the RAW.
RAI, you die, then breath of life brings you back to life. What people need to figure out is if that negative energy effect sticks onto that ability damage you took. I don't see any evidence that is does stick around, and it seems that it's the attack that is made that would kill you.
If people believe that you wake up to die again, then your character would forever be haunted regardless if you survived a shadow, to die if your str score met or exceeded the current score. There's no way that can be correct.
Since raise dead and other spells specifically say when they bring you back to life and cure ability damage and BoL does not then it stands to reason that it does not.
And since you the shadow's str damage is still in affect then you should stay dead. At no point does any rule say, once you die the supernatural str damage becomes normal str damage, and the intent of BoL seems to be to fix hit point damage deaths only.
Yeah shadows suck.
We can start an FAQ asking does breath of life allow you to live again if you are killed by a shadow's strength drain, but to me it seems you(whoever is killed) would be out of luck.