| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, so I know that the subject is making everyone go WTFBBQSAUCE??!!? but bear with me.
It's not so widely known that Groetus is encroaching on the Boneyard and when he reaches it, the End Times will be upon Golarion. In order to fend him off, Pharasma occasionally feeds him atheists. While that's great for Golarion, it's not so great for the atheists (and dystheists).
So, I made a mythic character that was a dystheist and also I gave her Divine Source, not because she wanted to be worshipped, but because she wanted the domains.
But that got me thinking... what if she was worshipped? What is her portfolio? She's an atheist/dystheist. So why not make that her portfolio? She won't grant you spells, but she''ll be your patron deity to keep that evil Pharasma from feeding you to Groetus.
So her dogma is that there are no gods, just extremely powerful beings that are generally all a bunch of jerks. So, throw your lot in with her, and help her overthrow them all and take back the multiverse for mortals.
This still isn't Atheism IMO, just god hating. Though call it what you will it is what it is. If you've got this mythic character that isn't fond of gods, then she should probably want to decline divine power if she ever was offered it. And so she remained more or less "human" if you will throughout her existence. That being said, maybe she found a way to prevent your soul from being eaten by Groetus (if needed) regardless? It's an interesting idea to be sure.
That's why I said dytheism also... and there is already a thread about how Faiths and Philosophies uses the term atheism when they should have used dystheism.
Yes, there is some cognitive dissonance, but I don't think it's hypocrisy because she still won't grant spells. No clerics/druids/etc allowed. Oracles are fine, as long as they understand they didn't get their power from her. Also, it's not that she doesn't believe in divine power, it's that she believes it's an unquantifiable force that anyone can tap into and the so called "gods" are just beings that have tapped into that force on higher level than mortals.
So, it's not so much that the gods don't have the divine power, it's that the divine power doesn't make them special. Doesn't make them worthy of worship nor give Pharasma the right to be judge, jury and SOUL EXECUTIONER that she is. (as you can see, she very much hates Pharasma)
So, you are worshipping her only until she and her followers can change the world so that everyone is fully in charge of their own destiny in this world and the next. Until worshipping the so-called 'gods' is no longer necessary.
Also, she very much is a meddler... As a mythic character herself, she actively travels and helps others become mythic.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
How does one do this without massive doses of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy?Easy: A sense of humor and irony.
I'd call this a nifty idea, as presented. It's something I've thought about myself in the context of the Forgotten Realms.
So it's for hipster clerics?
"Yes, I cast divine spells, but I only derive divine spell casting ability ironically."
How does one do this without massive doses of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy?Easy: A sense of humor and irony.
I'd call this a nifty idea, as presented. It's something I've thought about myself in the context of the Forgotten Realms.
So it's for hipster clerics?
"Yes, I cast divine spells, but I only derive divine spell casting ability ironically."
No, because a cleric must worship a god, and that god must also accept them as worshippers. While Captain Quinn (yes, I am posting under the character's name) CAN grant spells, she chooses not to because that DOES seem like hypocrisy to her. Become mythic, take Divine Source, and then become your own god if you want to be a cleric.
Following your logic and while trying to be consistent.
Your character has these viewpoints as a mortal. But if you actually manage to become a god... or a Q, she'll realize that she's been wrong the entire time, as we are going by Golarion defaults here.
Divine Source allows one to be worshipped and grant spells as a mythic character. Demon Princes, Empyreal Lords, etc can grant spells but are not considered gods. Yet, their worshippers are not considered atheist or dystheist, and they don't risk being fed to Groetus. But why not? What is a god other than a being that grants spells and has control over our destiny? In fact, she was born a mythic character herself (that's part of her concept) so by that respect, how is she any different than a god born as a god?
Plus, it's always been said the Test of the Starstone can make you a god. It made Cayden Caliean a god. But now it's also a source of mythic power. So which is it? Is it both, or are they the same thing? Is Cayden Caliean a mythic character that rose to greater godhood because he declared himself a god and attracted worshippers, granting them spells and elevated himself past the point the Starstone granted him?
Sure, you can take everything said in the book as 100% fact, but you can also take it as what the people (and the 'gods' themselves) believe to be true. It's the status quo. Doesn't make it fact. Especially not when you have the contradictions that are the demon princes, Empyreal Lords, etc that are not gods yet are and how the Starstone makes you a god but also makes you mythic.
Also.. A Q? Did you just make a Star Trek reference? LOL
|
That... is a silly idea, and makes no logical sense. Atheism is the lack of belief or disbelief in any deities, that deities do not exist. The closest you can get to an atheist is if you consider the faction Athar from Planescape, which is knowing deities exist but that they are not worthy of worship. There is a bit more too them but that is the simplified take on them.
A Goddess of Atheism wouldn't work, because to be a deity would prove the existence of deities thus dispel disbelief. That to become a deity would require having worshiping. The only way a Goddess of Atheism could possibly work is if said deity disbelieves in themself. They also would not give any worships domains or spells.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You need to stop using atheism in the real-world definition of the word and start using it in the Pathfinder sense of the word, at least for the purposes of this conversation.
Paizo uses the term "atheist" in Golarion to mean not a person who doesn't believe in deities, but a person who is irreverent or uninterested in them (apatheism) or rejects the gods' influence and/or authority (dystheism or misotheism).
If we keep trying to double back to using real-world definitions for stuff this conversation will go nowhere. There are ZERO (sane) people in Golarion - or most fantasy settings, for that matter; I think Eberron is the only real exception - who are atheists in the real-world sense, as the gods are provably-existent entities.
That... is a silly idea, and makes no logical sense. Atheism is the lack of belief or disbelief in any deities, that deities do not exist. The closest you can get to an atheist is if you consider the faction Athar from Planescape, which is knowing deities exist but that they are not worthy of worship. There is a bit more too them but that is the simplified take on them.
A Goddess of Atheism wouldn't work, because to be a deity would prove the existence of deities thus dispel disbelief. That to become a deity would require having worshiping. The only way a Goddess of Atheism could possibly work is if said deity disbelieves in themselves. They also would not give any worships domains or spells.
Did you not read what I said? She doesn't grant spells. She merely sees herself as a means to an end to protect mortals from the so called 'gods' whims. Also, as it's been said in other books and in Mythic Adventures especially, there is a divine source that is independent of the gods. It's where the gods themselves get their power. So, in a way yes... the Athar is very much in a way what I am going for (and yes, I did read up on them as I was creating this idea)... So she's more a patron to protect them from the 'gods' by claiming them as her worshippers, the 'gods' can't punish them for being athiest/dystheist.
Also again, to make this work you have to understand that in a fantasy world like this, really atheism doesn't exist, as it cannot. These powerful beings DO exist. But, you very much can think they are not gods worthy of worship. As for her, as I said she doesn't wish to be worshipped, not really... which is why she doesn't grant spells. BUT, she very much realizes that her fellow atheists (or dystheists really is the better term) need a patron to protect them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Anyway, that rant aside, looks like a cool concept, though I probably wouldn't use it myself.
Anyway, that rant aside, looks like a cool concept, though I probably wouldn't use it myself.
Right, I mean I totally understand that atheism in Golarion is different that real world, and that's why I prefer the term Dystheist (in fact, that's what it says as her deity on her character sheet... Dystheism) but others keep bringing the real world definition in, and that's already been argued to death in another thread where Paizo themselves admitted they shouldn't have used the term Atheist in Faiths & Philosophies, as they were describing Dystheism, not Atheism.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Or she considers what others call "Godhood" to simply be another powerful being and pulls the Buddha and tries to help everyone achieve it.
"Yes you worship me, but you are wrong for doing so, you should worship yourself instead."
Basically Humanism on a grander scale.
Beyond that I don't see why anyone would argue that a god can't be a hypocrite. I mean really? That's the best you have?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah it's annoying to have to repeat that in every thread where it comes up.
I don't even play in Golarion and I still know that bit >_>
Or she considers what others call "Godhood" to simply be another powerful being and pulls the Buddha and tries to help everyone achieve it.
"Yes you worship me, but you are wrong for doing so, you should worship yourself instead."
Basically Humanism on a grander scale.
Actually, yes. That's a very, very good way of looking at it! As I said, the status quo is you must worship a god, or else you risk getting fed to Groetus. So, follow her teachings ('worshipping her' sort of) and become a 'god' yourself. She'll even help, as I said she travels helping people achieve mythic power.
As I said, she feels we should all be in charge of our own destiny in this world and the next, not subject to Pharasma's judgement.
Or she considers what others call "Godhood" to simply be another powerful being and pulls the Buddha and tries to help everyone achieve it.
"Yes you worship me, but you are wrong for doing so, you should worship yourself instead."
Basically Humanism on a grander scale.
Actually, yes. That's a very, very good way of looking at it! As I said, the status quo is you must worship a god, or else you risk getting fed to Groetus. So, follow her teachings ('worshipping her' sort of) and become a 'god' yourself. She'll even help, as I said she travels helping people achieve mythic power.
As I said, she feels we should all be in charge of our own destiny in this world and the next, not subject to Pharasma's judgement.
That's not the actual status quo -- worshipping a god is in no way required to avoid Groetus.
What she uses for the wall are souls that don't believe in themselves. Spiritual absolute nihilist basically.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nor are there breaks, time off, or downtime from being a god. Iomedae will be the Crusader until the world ends.... or she does. Everything she does will be in the context of that role.
That's true of everyone though. You are who you are with no breaks and no time out.
Also we have proof the gods change all the time (relatively). Whore-queens, and ascendant beings and people changing sides.
The time scale is simply different.
That's not the actual status quo -- worshipping a god is in no way required to avoid Groetus.What she uses for the wall are souls that don't believe in themselves. Spiritual absolute nihilist basically.
Beyond the Doomsday Door book has the full "god" writeup of Groetus, which talks about Pharasma feeding atheists to him.
It is known that the souls
in Pharasma’s Court draw his moon-realm closer, and
a few know that the crystallized souls of true atheists
repel him—both incidentally by their proximity, and
sometimes directly when the Lady of Graves “feeds” him
the essence of one (though whether this is a literal feeding
or a transfer of essence is unknown) to push him farther
away. The accepted premise is that a planar apocalypse will
occur when his moon contacts the Spire itself, and even
the most violent gods agree that is something that should
be forestalled as long as possible.
No offense, but before you try to debate what someone says, find out where they are getting their information.
Except by what the staff has said what "True Atheists" are in pathfinder are explicitly not what atheists are in the actual world. It has nothing to do with your acceptance of a god in pathfinder. In pathfinder it is much much more.
There was a whole thread on this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except by what the staff has said what "True Atheists" are in pathfinder are explicitly not what atheists are in the actual world. It has nothing to do with your acceptance of a god in pathfinder. In pathfinder it is much much more.
There was a whole thread on this.
Which doesn't matter in the context of Golarion. True atheists might be the wrong term to is (forget might, it is) but it's the term that Paizo, erroneously, uses. Therefore by the CONTEXT of their use of the term, Pharasma sometimes feeds atheists to Groetus to keep him away from The Spire.
Yes, there was a whole thread on it. Paizo used and continues to use the incorrect word. We know this, and we need to understand that when someone is quoting the books, they are by that error existing needed to quote it, error and all.
So, Pharasma DOES feed PAIZO DEFINED ATHEISTS to Groetus. THAT is the status quo.
@OP:
The correct term you're looking for is "misotheism."
Dystheism just means that the person accepts that Gods exist, but that they aren't as kind and benevolent as people believe. In a world where there are both good and evil Gods, that doesn't really make much sense.
Misotheism refers to someone who actively dislikes the Gods.
Dystheism as I have seen it defined is that god(s) exists, but is not worthy of worship. Whether it's because god(s) are not kind and benevolent, or because you just don't like god(s)... that doesn't really matter.
The only 'god' Captain Quinn actively dislikes is Pharasma. The rest, meh... they are part of the status quo... She still wants to bring everyone up to their level.
I think this concept is an interesting one. Just because something does not make sense to the common mind frame does not mean it should not be explored. You have my applause for coming up with an idea that I'd likely have never come to myself.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I also suspect that regardless of somantics; if we consider the IDEA you are putting forth, others will see it too.
I also suspect that regardless of somantics; if we consider the IDEA you are putting forth, others will see it too.
Yeah, Paizo's misuse of the word atheist in the first place really creates a headache... which is why I try to keep saying that the better term is Dystheism (or maybe Misotheism as one person suggested, but by the definition I know and concept of Captain Quinn, I really think Dystheism fits better)
Yeah I'm better with that now, thanks.
Zon-kuthon's not evil! He's just misunderstood! He really does love us all...in a special way
Zon-kuthon's not evil! He's just misunderstood! He really does love us all...in a special way
The Midnight Lord will see you now.
|
|
Signs, next time avoid the word Atheist or Atheism, even if Paizo uses the word abet incorrectly, if it has little to actually to do with your concept... or you will have people you misunderstand your purpose and look to the fact you use the title 'Goddess of Atheism".
If you had avoided that word, there wouldn't be this confusion or debate.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bear in mind though that if the Groetus version of the End Times happens it will be by coincidence or by some BBEG trying to force the issue, but considering all of the other multiverse ending things out there, the chance of Groetus ending things is unlikely.
Because remember my children, Prophecy is broken.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Technically, there could be a workaround.
A Cleric doesn't actually NEED to worship a god. As per the rules, a Cleric can devote themselves to a set of principles, rather than a Deity.
Druids, as well, don't quite worship "gods" as much as they worship "Nature".
Going into a Gnostic sense here, the Gods of Golarion could be akin to the Demiurge, and the multiverse itself the Sophia.
Basically, the gods are "gods", yes, in the same way beings like Yog Sothoth are "gods" - they are incredibly powerful beings and control major parts of reality by their will alone.
However, they aren't the highest of the high, because even they are bound by the very basic laws of the universe, including fate. This is why the gods are even bound by physical laws and have limited power (although their power compared to mortals is near-infinite). Rather, the multiverse itself, or even a higher form of reality, is the TRUE highest-of-the-high.
A Deity or Mythic creature (with 10 Tiers and 4 Domains & Subdomains) could conceivably take a messianic- or Christ-like role (Christ in the gnostic sense, which is more akin to a Buddha, really), and lead its followers to a rejection of the "lower" gods and a worship of the universe/multiverse itself, similar to what Druids pretty much already do.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pfffft. If she sees the "gods" as merely very very powerful beings who have no right to be worshipped, it's no problem at all. The divine magic system is a naturally occurring phenomenon, it just requires that you tap into it. Shuffling around power is not anything sacred or divine, I mean, even wizards can do it without the gods.
So, she has gotten the option herself. A.k.a. "Hey everybody, look! I am certainly not divine, and I can grant 'divine' spells as well! Further proof the 'gods' are merely fakes!" There is no reason for her not to draw people to her, to grant them spells. She would, as all beings using the spell granting system, choose how her followers should contact and communicate with her. Perhaps they concentrate and say "Hey, Captain Quinn, it's me, Doorthan Em. I have a report to make, and some requests for spells."
As for domains, nothing wrong with Liberation, Magic and some such. As for portfolio, she doesn't have one. If she were to become a PR success, she might be elevated to true godhood, and at that point, a "slayer of gods" portfolio, the counterpart to Achaekek's, is one that appears in several pantheons. Or perhaps merely a "Great teacher and opener of the Way" portfolio, like Buddha?
Signs, next time avoid the word Atheist or Atheism, even if Paizo uses the word abet incorrectly, if it has little to actually to do with your concept... or you will have people you misunderstand your purpose and look to the fact you use the title 'Goddess of Atheism".
If you had avoided that word, there wouldn't be this confusion or debate.
1. I included Dystheism also.
2. Again, it's Paizo's mistake. I can't retroactively erase their mistake.3. This 'omg you are using atheist wrong' horse has been beaten to death on these forums, raised as undead, and continues to be beaten...
As for her domains, well that's the thing her domains have nothing to do with it actually since she doesn't consider herself a goddess (not truly) then having domains that reflect any "portfolio" is... well... no.
Her domains (based on the Divine Source mythic power and her primary concept of being an independent space pirate from the Alpha Centauri system beholden to nobody, not even the gods. She is however sadly beholden to the laws of physics when her ship crashed on Golarion and fixing it kind of hard cause her technology is not compatible with Numeria's 10,000 year old stuff, at least not directly. She needs.... a long time to figure out how to jury-rig it all together LOL) are Darkness, Void, and Travel. Subdomains are Dark Tapestry and Stars.
Well at least now she'll have a crew?
|
|
Hmm I see, I still find this a bit silly at least. Gods are real as can their actions, behaviors, and beliefs be observed by mortals thus judged. There is no way to really deny this, though I admit I never showed much interest in the Athar in Planescape either.
I admit that I my be bias but in a setting like this it is laughable for any to profess a form of Atheism or perhaps even Dystheism. I could see most of Golarion see both Captain Quinn and any of her followers as something of a joke, perhaps to be pitied or perhaps ignored... at best. At worst I don't think many deities or churches would like being called out as frauds or unworthy of worship, thus taking out the problem.
Because remember my children, Prophecy is broken.
How and why is Prophecy broken, more what is Prophecy?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because remember my children, Prophecy is broken.How and why is Prophecy broken, more what is Prophecy?
In Golarion, prophecy and predictions are not as set-in-stone as they are in many other fantasy worlds. This was one of the many effects of the death/disappearance of Aroden; the year he was prophesied to return to the world and lead his church and humanity to greatness and basically peaceful paradise-on-earth. Instead he vanished and stopped giving spells and was later reported dead, the world went a bit nuts (the Eye of Abendego started, the Worldwound opened, and a few other nasty things), and generally things started on a downturn toward the Golarion we have today.
Since then, prophecies have ceased to be reliable, with more failing since Aroden failed to return as expected. Pharasma, formerly a deity highly associated with prophecy, has ceased to be so and is far more focused now on her role as goddess of the cycle of life and enemy of undead.
That is why the current era of Golarion time is referred to as "The Age of Lost Omens".
I admit that I my be bias but in a setting like this it is laughable for any to profess a form of Atheism or perhaps even Dystheism.
That you'll need to take up with Paizo, considering they've made a point to make such beliefs not only present but to some degree even welcome in their setting.
Granted, they've been incredibly inconsistent about what happens to the souls of such mortals after they die. Sometimes (the Groetus article, the module Beyond the Vault of Souls) they say Pharasma uses them to "feed" Groetus to keep him away. Other places say atheistic souls are kind of "set loose" to wander the cosmos unclaimed, meandering a bodyless existence to experience reality unfettered until they discorporate.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nietzsche as a Space Pirate God... now that should be interesting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nietzsche would probably have agreed completely.
But if they truly "throw in their lot with you" even if you don't grant them any favors... are they still athiests? Can you truly be the follower of a god without following some form of dogma to prove your faith? You can argue that your god's dogma is "do whatever, I'm not your boss" but I'm not sure that would give you free take-all on atheist souls in Pharasma's court--especially when those souls are currently going to a very necessary cause. I think at best you could only save the militant, progressive atheists in this fashion, because they actively work to push their beliefs on the world--In Golarion, I expect that most of the comic entities would fight you over every soul that could be preventing universal catastrophe. It's possible, but it's going to take a lot more than saying "My portfolio is all the people being fed to the monster, so you can't feed them to the monster anymore."
Talk about a campaign of celestial bureaucracy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Talk about a campaign of celestial bureaucracy.
That's a campaign in China.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well maybe some worshipers say "I know you don't want me worshipping you but i really need some power to counteract the trickery that these so-called gods's followers are performing"
Basically, they may think you are the one true god / not-god, because you are the only honest one admitting that you all suck and don't deserve worship. I suppose you could "lend power" to your followers, maybe since you are merely the leader not a god.
Have you seen the show Kumaré? It is a similar concept. It's a documentary about a guy who decides to pose as a guru with a camera crew following him around, and constantly says "don't listen to me, listen to yourself, the answers are within you" and then at the end he reveals he grew up in the west and is just some guy. Most of his followers were not angry because he didn't really take money and just kept telling people to stop seeking answers outside of themselves or even in him.
So yeah that was a weird one but it sounds similar to your character.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is also precedent for such a thing - in 3.5, at least.
There was a race of scholastic ex-humans called the Illumians (first appearing in Races of Destiny).
They had their own pantheon, one of which
SOORINEK
The Doubter
Demigoddess of intrigue, secrets, and betrayal
Alignment: Lawful evil
Domains: Evil, Law, Luck, Trickery
Subdomains: Curse, Deception, Devil, Thievery
Favored Weapon: ScimitarSoorinek was once an illumian sorcerer who disdained the gods as frauds who lorded over the gullible and weak-minded for their own benefit. To her surprise, her final utterance resulted in her own ascension to godhood. She now does just what she accused the other gods of doing, gathering a cult of worshipers with promises of power and secret knowledge. Soorinek appears as a dark-skinned illumian with a jharis (the Illumian equivalent of a question mark) floating around her head.
As the goddess of secrets, Soorinek encourages her followers to engage in espionage, gathering information and stealing secrets. They spread doubt in the other illumian gods, whom she still seeks to undermine and knock down from their pedestals. Soorinek herself dwells in a spherical gray citadel on the Negative Energy Plane, but spends much of her time consorting with the archdevils in Hell.
The write-up was exceptionally similar in 3.5, but her domains were Evil, Luck, and Trickery.
Hope that helps!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh yes. Her.
Have you seen the show Kumaré?
Or maybe Life of Brian, for a more comedy-styled campaign.
The specific rules of the Golarion Setting, which is the focus for this discussion override that general rule.Technically, there could be a workaround.
A Cleric doesn't actually NEED to worship a god. As per the rules, a Cleric can devote themselves to a set of principles, rather than a Deity.
This! For clerics of course.