Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I believe extreme cases would be adjudicated, as another mentioned above. Most times, you have one or two Pre-Gens on a table, so Sub-Tier is pretty much the same when you get the correct in - tier Pre Gens. Higher level scenarios do not see as many Pre Gens, but it does happen. Just play Kyra and stay to the back...
I think I will take the advice and advise others to do it as they see fit. Thank you for the discussion.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I have been running it that if you are playing a pregen, then it is supposed to be appropriate level for the sub-tier, i.e. if everyone else at the table is playing a 1st or 2nd level character in a Tier 1-5 mod then you have to play the 1st level pregen rather than the 4th. But the more I think about it, the more I have to ask myself why? If a guy showed up at the table with a 1st level and 4th level regular non-pregen character I would not force him to play the 1st level if he really wanted to play the 4th and no one would bat an eye at him playing the 4th level if that is what he wanted to play. So why should this change for pregens?
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If you have a table of level 1s or 2s, common sense says you don't allow a level 4 pregen to play at that table.No, it doesn't. If I want to allow a 4th level pregen in a party of 1s, I do. I've done it with regular PCs, I see no reason not to allow a pregen the same way.
Common sense tells you to do what is fun, and if three 1s and a 4th level pregen is fun, you are welcome to do it.
I might allow a level 4 pregen with 3 level 1s and 2s but only if ALL the players voted for it in a secret ballot. Even then, it would depend on the scenario. It would be more likely the more difficult the scenario.
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I have been running it that if you are playing a pregen, then it is supposed to be appropriate level for the sub-tier, i.e. if everyone else at the table is playing a 1st or 2nd level character in a Tier 1-5 mod then you have to play the 1st level pregen rather than the 4th. But the more I think about it, the more I have to ask myself why? If a guy showed up at the table with a 1st level and 4th level regular non-pregen character I would not force him to play the 1st level if he really wanted to play the 4th and no one would bat an eye at him playing the 4th level if that is what he wanted to play. So why should this change for pregens?
Because the 4th level earned it and thats the only way he gets to play his character. If you want to play kyra there's a 1st and 4th level option. PFS doesn't do that for real characters.
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I might allow a level 4 pregen with 3 level 1s and 2s but only if ALL the players voted for it in a secret ballot. Even then, it would depend on the scenario. It would be more likely the more difficult the scenario.If you have a table of level 1s or 2s, common sense says you don't allow a level 4 pregen to play at that table.No, it doesn't. If I want to allow a 4th level pregen in a party of 1s, I do. I've done it with regular PCs, I see no reason not to allow a pregen the same way.
Common sense tells you to do what is fun, and if three 1s and a 4th level pregen is fun, you are welcome to do it.
Or there could be a confusion/dominate and turn the level 4 into an unstoppable engine of destruction.
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Or there could be a confusion/dominate and turn the level 4 into an unstoppable engine of destruction.I might allow a level 4 pregen with 3 level 1s and 2s but only if ALL the players voted for it in a secret ballot. Even then, it would depend on the scenario. It would be more likely the more difficult the scenario.If you have a table of level 1s or 2s, common sense says you don't allow a level 4 pregen to play at that table.No, it doesn't. If I want to allow a 4th level pregen in a party of 1s, I do. I've done it with regular PCs, I see no reason not to allow a pregen the same way.
Common sense tells you to do what is fun, and if three 1s and a 4th level pregen is fun, you are welcome to do it.
I'm not sure a 4th level barbarian is much more dangerous than a first level barbarian to a L1 or 2 :-).
Joking aside, you're right. Hence my "might" above :-)
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I see nothing banning you from selecting either level range appropriate pregen as the table prefers. I prefer to make sure the pregen matches the sub-tier, but if the pregen can determine the sub-tier I will consider the wishes of the party.
This is how I handle pregens at my table. It hasn't come up before, but if someone did want to play a level four pregen at a table of ones and twos, I would leave it up to the people playing at the table.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I have been running it that if you are playing a pregen, then it is supposed to be appropriate level for the sub-tier, i.e. if everyone else at the table is playing a 1st or 2nd level character in a Tier 1-5 mod then you have to play the 1st level pregen rather than the 4th. But the more I think about it, the more I have to ask myself why? If a guy showed up at the table with a 1st level and 4th level regular non-pregen character I would not force him to play the 1st level if he really wanted to play the 4th and no one would bat an eye at him playing the 4th level if that is what he wanted to play. So why should this change for pregens?Because the 4th level earned it and thats the only way he gets to play his character. If you want to play kyra there's a 1st and 4th level option. PFS doesn't do that for real characters.
Hmmm...so if you worked your character up to 4th you've earned it, but if you worked your character up to 6th or higher and thus can no longer play it in a 1-5 mod, then you haven't earned it? Interesting.
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Hmmm...so if you worked your character up to 4th you've earned it, but if you worked your character up to 6th or higher and thus can no longer play it in a 1-5 mod, then you haven't earned it? Interesting.
Then its not allowed. He can play his own character at level 1 then. you shouldn't be able to exploit the system by playing a level 4 to get yourself through level 1 every single time, especially when it comes at the expense of roflcoptering the scenario for everyone else. A pregen is supposed to be a last ditch effort, not a shortcut to quick and easy power.
A level 4 in a level 1 is a mass of conflicting interests.
Why let Bob play his level 4 in the level 1-2?
he wants to play his character he made, not a pregen.
He wants to play as the person he made, not a pregen
Every pregens terrible
Bob wants the experience to go on this character (possibly to fit in with his real life gaming schedule)
Bob has built his character to this point and wants to play him.
Characters can get stuck in a rut where player turnover forces them to play down all the time without being able to advance to higher levels.
Mageroth the Gnoll slayer is Silver crusade, and this is a silver crusade mission.
Magaroth the Gnoll slayer is magaroth the gnoll slayer, and this scenario involves gnolls.
Why NOT let bob play his level 4 in the level 1?
He'll roflcopter the scenario
Make that level 1 Kyra vs Level 4 Kyra and you've got... what for competing desires?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Make that level 1 Kyra vs Level 4 Kyra and you've got... what for competing desires?
Well, especially in the particular example you chose, I would say a competing desire might be to keep a party of low level characters (run perhaps by inexperienced players) from dying in a mod known to be deadly at Tier 1-2.
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If we don't count pregens, then a table of 4 pregens has an undefined APL on account of dividing by zero.
See, this is the thing, we need to talk about this only in terms of those grey areas where the table isn't especially happy with the result of what happens when you include a pregen.
It's not helpful to the discussion to talk about what should happen if there's an obvious result like "what happens if there's 4 pregens?".
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Well, especially in the particular example you chose, I would say a competing desire might be to keep a party of low level characters (run perhaps by inexperienced players) from dying in a mod known to be deadly at Tier 1-2.Make that level 1 Kyra vs Level 4 Kyra and you've got... what for competing desires?
You do not mix inexperienced players with a deadly scenario no matter what you've got in the mix. Break out the tablet and find the adventure of soft fluffy bunnies.
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You do not mix inexperienced players with a deadly scenario no matter what you've got in the mix. Break out the tablet and find the adventure of soft fluffy bunnies.Well, especially in the particular example you chose, I would say a competing desire might be to keep a party of low level characters (run perhaps by inexperienced players) from dying in a mod known to be deadly at Tier 1-2.Make that level 1 Kyra vs Level 4 Kyra and you've got... what for competing desires?
Which scenario is that?
First Steps, Part 1: In Service to Lore has a Ledford kills thread.
5-08: The Confirmation has a definitely deadly encounter potential, possibly multiple.
6-10: Wounded Wisp can have some potentially deadly encounters. First time I have ever seen an NPC with Step Up. That was an ugly surprise for the player...
0-5: Mists of Mwangi? Heh. I ran this the other day, and had 4 PCs fail their Fort save, and use their re-rolls to save. Then 3 of them, and a different PC, failed the next Fort save from the second of the same critter in that encounter. First time I have ever seen someone need a Cure Disease from that scenario, not to mention two of the PCs had what amounted to virtually unhealable damage for the rest of the scenario...
I would love to know where the fluffy bunnies are.
I know of at least two modules designed for first level PCs that include Shadows. While one of them has the Shadow anchored to its room, the other does not.
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I would say if you did allow a 4th level pre gen in a 1-2 sub tier that the character would get the level 1-2 gold or have to wait till they are level 3 to apply the credit to the character
No. You apply it as the rules require for non-1st level pregens.
A) Apply it to a 1st level character and change the gold received to 500gp with sub-tier 1-2 loot access (since that is the sub-tier played in the example).
or
B) Apply to a 3rd level or lower character and hold the chronicle until the character reaches 4th level. The chronicle would be for out of tier gold and sub-tier 1-2 loot access (again, since this is the sub-tier played in the example).
Since option A can end up giving greater gold to a 1st level character than actually playing in a sub-tier 1-2 scenario, it kind of points that playing a level 4 pre-gen in that sub-tier really isn't expected.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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You do not mix inexperienced players with a deadly scenario no matter what you've got in the mix. Break out the tablet and find the adventure of soft fluffy bunnies.Which scenario is that?
First Steps, Part 1: In Service to Lore has a Ledford kills thread.
5-08: The Confirmation has a definitely deadly encounter potential, possibly multiple.
6-10: Wounded Wisp can have some potentially deadly encounters. First time I have ever seen an NPC with Step Up. That was an ugly surprise for the player...
0-5: Mists of Mwangi? Heh. I ran this the other day, and had 4 PCs fail their Fort save, and use their re-rolls to save. Then 3 of them, and a different PC, failed the next Fort save from the second of the same critter in that encounter. First time I have ever seen someone need a Cure Disease from that scenario, not to mention two of the PCs had what amounted to virtually unhealable damage for the rest of the scenario...
I would love to know where the fluffy bunnies are.
I know of at least two modules designed for first level PCs that include Shadows. While one of them has the Shadow anchored to its room, the other does not.
The most fluffy bunny mods I can think of (i.e. mods were it is very difficult to kill 1st level characters) are Prince of Augustana and Horn of Aroden. But, yeah, they aren't very common. A good deal of my GM kills are 1st level characters (including 2 by Ledford).
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Nice job editing out the part of my comment (in bold now in my reply) in which I make it clear that I'm making a freaking joke.
There's other posts here which don't demonstrate the problem I was talking about as clearly as your example did.
It's easy for anyone to read the part of your post that I quoted and think "that's another reason why pregens need to be counted!", joke or not.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Current situation is that everyone is strongly encouraged to pick characters within the appropriate subtier; but it's "should", not "must".
Of course since subtier isn't calculated until everyone's level is known, that's a bit of a circular argument. Best thing you can do is calculate where you'd end up with a high- and low-level pregen, and pick the one that gives the result the table is happiest with. Generally that means selecting pregens so the subtier ends up the same as the pregen.
I have on occasion deviated from this; I've allowed a high-tier pregen in the low tier of Beyond Azlant Ridge for example. Had about thirteen stars worth of GM looking at me like "what are you doing", but by the end of the evening they agreed it was the right call. (Actually, Auke forgot that what they were playing was considered to be the low tier. It didn't feel like low tier to the players.)
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Is this really something that needs an explicit ruling? Seems like something that should be a quick, reasonable discussion at the table with the GM making a ruling if the players can't agree. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but if an actual ruling is made here, it makes it harder/more complicated for everyone as they have to then interpret that rule, instead of just do reasonable things and not be a jerk...
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Is this really something that needs an explicit ruling? Seems like something that should be a quick, reasonable discussion at the table with the GM making a ruling if the players can't agree. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but if an actual ruling is made here, it makes it harder/more complicated for everyone as they have to then interpret that rule, instead of just do reasonable things and not be a jerk...
I think it does need the ruling, because we've seen heated arguments in the past, along the lines of "as a GM I don't want a player picking a high-level pregen if the tier is going to be low regardless".
There are good-faith reasons for doing so however. For example, in a 1-5, the player couldn't put credit from the L1 pregen on his L2 PC that he forgot at home. But he doesn't want to start a new PC, so he wants to use the L4 pregen.
I don't think the arguments are between the players, they're between GM and players.