Any word on the ACG?


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Edit: New page, so new link for the poll..

All I know Rushley is that Mark has completed errata for the ACG and submitted it to the editors and layout departments. Additionally Mark occasionally comes across a new issue and attaches it to his submission.

Your other questions can only be answered by Erik Mona, Jason Bulmahn, or Lisa Stevens.


From what I've read and/or inferred from what is being said (and not said), it looks like the answer to the question of when is "not now, probably later."

Mark has mentioned that he's added post it notes to the pile of errata, which seems to mean to me that there is more to be done on it, checked and so on. Liz, I believe, mentioned GenCon and other events that they have going on.

The answer really might just be "Busy, it's on the list. Sorry."

Shadow Lodge

Rushley son of Halum wrote:

Dm Beckett, with respect that really isn't up to you. If you have no need for the thread then you may walk away. Some of us still have questions.

Mine being how 5 or 6. Months is somehow not enough time for this to be resolved? And also just why we can't get some timeframe. What is the official position? Are we waiting for second printing, in which case is that wise given what surely must be reduced sales. If not then how long should we expect to wait?

Which is fine. I do too. But that doesn't make this the place, and please note that the Mods complaint was about this being Off Topic.


DM Beckett wrote:
Rushley son of Halum wrote:

Dm Beckett, with respect that really isn't up to you. If you have no need for the thread then you may walk away. Some of us still have questions.

Mine being how 5 or 6. Months is somehow not enough time for this to be resolved? And also just why we can't get some timeframe. What is the official position? Are we waiting for second printing, in which case is that wise given what surely must be reduced sales. If not then how long should we expect to wait?

Which is fine. I do too. But that doesn't make this the place.

...Why do you care?

Shadow Lodge

I care because I personally hate how everything is so spread out on these boards, and also because my intent was not to start another thread about arguing over policy, editing of the book, or the various other things that are being discussed here. There is already (at least one) specifically for that, and I had been rather active in them.

Designer

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Insain Dragoon wrote:

Edit: New page, so new link for the poll..

All I know Rushley is that Mark has completed errata for the ACG and submitted it to the editors and layout departments. Additionally Mark occasionally comes across a new issue and attaches it to his submission.

It is worth reposting the following, which I already mentioned in this thread but doesn't make it into all the summaries:

As Erik said, this errata process is special in that he got more eyes on it and there are more errata than just the ones the PDT found on our end, so there's more to do with the remaining teams still than it might seem (and of course, the editing team not only wound up down members the past few months, they also must prioritize editing the books nearest to ship date over the ACG errata, to make darn sure that each and every new book is edited to the highest possible standard the first time around).


DM Beckett wrote:

I care because I personally hate how everything is so spread out on these boards, and also because my intent was not to start another thread about arguing over policy, editing of the book, or the various other things that are being discussed here. There is already (at least one) specifically for that, and I had been rather active in them.

That's how forums work. Getting worked up over it is kind of silly, IMO.

Regardless of your intent the topic has changed. The mods obviously do not see it as a problem, and you're the only person clamoring for a thread like. If you don't like the new topic of discussion hide the thread and move on.


That's understandable, but if we could know whether the plan is to release said errata after it has been put through editing and layout or to delay it for a second printing of ACG?

Shadow Lodge

Rynjin wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:

I care because I personally hate how everything is so spread out on these boards, and also because my intent was not to start another thread about arguing over policy, editing of the book, or the various other things that are being discussed here. There is already (at least one) specifically for that, and I had been rather active in them.

That's how forums work. Getting worked up over it is kind of silly, IMO.

Regardless of your intent the topic has changed. The mods obviously do not see it as a problem, and you're the only person clamoring for a thread like. If you don't like the new topic of discussion hide the thread and move on.

I am not worked up. Im pointing out that saying things like "Lets get on Topic" are extremely odd, because basically every post have been off topic. As a Mod, I do find the mixed messages this sort of thing sends, and if you look back, every time I have mentioned locking thread, it has followed a Mod's post of something similar.


Mark Seifter wrote:


As Erik said, this errata process is special in that he got more eyes on it and there are more errata than just the ones the PDT found on our end, so there's more to do with the remaining teams still than it might seem (and of course, the editing team not only wound up down members the past few months, they also must prioritize editing the books nearest to ship date over the ACG errata, to make darn sure that each and every new book is edited to the highest possible standard the first time around).

Wow, Two answered questions in one thread, let alone one day. This thread is the best.

My answered question, "What's the priority of the ACG Errata?"
Answer in my own words, "While we're aware that the ACG has lots of issues and needs a lot of work, our priority is still maintaining the schedule for new material." Which is nice to know. I know I originally assumed that it was more like "We need to put highest priority on this Errata since it's at an unacceptable level currently."

Scarab Sages Modules Overlord

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The fact we are trying to do multiple things doesn't necessarily mean the new ones are prioritized over the old ones. We can't have everyone work on ACG errata at the same time - that's SURE to introduce new errors. There is a process, and when someone's part in that process is done, or hasn't started yet, they can (and should) do other things. Of course that occasionally causes issues of its own (if you expect something to take 12 days, and it takes 20, the smooth hand-off of material from one person to another does not occur on schedule, and Paizo certainly can't afford to have designers and editors sitting around doing nothing, waiting for a specific job to each them).

In other words, we can have multiple things prioritized, because we can do more than one project at a time. In fact, we have to.

As I have mentioned I am not involved at all in the ACG errata, but as an example at any given time I am preparing pitches for upcoming products to be added to the schedule, outlying things that are on the schedule, assigning things that are coming up fairly soon, writing art orders (based on when the art department needs them, which has more to do with how many artists they have available and how many other projects they have currently, which is its OWN algebraic dance), answering questions for writers work gin on projects, and currently hosting RPG Superstar. That's all things I do in the regular course of my job besides develop material that has ben written and turned over. And there are parts of it I have to do as much as 18 or 20 months in advance, so if I get backed up on something I am developing due soon, a decision needs to be made if I take time to do 4 moderately fast things which set the wheels in motion on projects more than a year away, or do we already give up on those being on time (and all the problems I mentioned earlier) and focus more time on the project that's behind? (Or can someone else pitch in, or can we assign the other projects early stages to someone else, or, or , or... as I have said, it's an amazingly complex, interconnected issue).

It is perfectly possible for the best possible job of errata development to be occurring at the highest possible quality level, and have lots of people not involved in that at any given time.

As for what the plan is for releasing errata, I have no special knowledge on the subject but it certainly would't surprise me to learn a decision won't be made until there's a finished errata to decide how to handle.


Oh I understand the multitasking idea and aspect of it. But it's kinda the idea of if they had to choose one over the other it seems like keeping on schedule for new material take priority. Which is fine and makes sense. It's just not what I originally thought was the priority.


Owen laying down them sweet sweet facts.


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Nicos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Nicos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:

As Ashram pointed out, if everybody waited for the next printing, that printing would never come out.

Because everyone should have a chance to look at this editing trainwreck.

This is the type of thing that is not helpful and makes the staff not want to respond, but then when they don't respond people want to play the victim. "Oh woe is us. Why do they ignore us now? What did we do?"

I am not saying I agree with the policy. I am saying I disagree with some of that antics that take place from some of the forum members.

Well, perhaps, but he have a point. Would you personally recommend to other people to buy the book so the errata comes faster than otherwise?

What are you talking about? I never said I agreed with their policy so how can I say "Go by the book"?

I'm just saying that while the tone may be inappropriate the general idea have its merit.

I am also saying that if the tone is wrong people will focus on that and miss your point, even if you are 100% correct.

Sovereign Court

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@Mark, Owen: I very much appreciate you sharing this information about just what happens behind the scenes at Paizo HQ. I think one of the things that frustrated people was the lack of communication on Paizo's part.

I also think that the people begging for Errata Now have a point. I understand the reasons for the old policy, but I doubt it's the best policy in this case. A policy that works well for a product with a few flaws doesn't necessarily work well for a product with a lot of flaws.

I also think there's a broader issue playing here: a choice between maintaining older products vs. putting out new ones. Paizo's errata-on-reprint policy plays havoc with paperbacks, and that's very frustrating. I do think Paizo should spend some time considering if the current strategy is really the right one. And if you do (or already did), I hope you'll give us some insight into the decision. Just like you did in this topic. I really appreciate that.


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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Until it is complete, there's no point in releasing it. Right now, the draft errata may itself have errors, and that really would make things worse. We're certainly not going to release errata for this book before the errata has gone through editing. By the time it is complete, the book may be sold out anyway. (Erik stated in his much-quoted comments that there might be no need to release it early.) Deciding when and how to release it does nothing to increase the speed at which it is completed, and we've said it's not done yet.

Actually, why not release a playtest version of the Errata? (Of course, with a big notice on it that says PLAYTEST on it, which might even keep distributors from having reason to complain about it early release of Errata.) That way, if it does have errors in it, you will be more likely to find out, and even if you found them yourself, you will still get feedback on them from a wider range of players (thereby covering a wider range of situation), and thus be better able to fix them. Also, it would go a decent part of the way towards making up for the fact that the Advanced Class Guide did not have the Third Playtest that it obviously needed.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ckorik wrote:

Reading the forums I feel like the only person that enjoys the book.

If you went by the forums, you'd conclude that you're the only person that enjoys the GAME.

Moral of the day is so obvious, I won't state it... this time.


It's almost like people who are satisfied with a product are less likely to voice their issues. Because they likely don't have any.

Which kinda begs the question: why tell people that you don't have an issue with something? What could that possibly achieve?


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LoneKnave wrote:
Which kinda begs the question: why tell people that you don't have an issue with something? What could that possibly achieve?

Because positive reinforcements and compliments are pretty cool.


LoneKnave wrote:

It's almost like people who are satisfied with a product are less likely to voice their issues. Because they likely don't have any.

Which kinda begs the question: why tell people that you don't have an issue with something? What could that possibly achieve?

I try to, from time to time. Both online and in-person. Helps to let the person/company know for sure that it isn't all doom and gloom.

The Exchange

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At the end of the day until a date is set for the update release I and many others will continue to be unhappy. It's all well and good that you're trying to communicate about how complicated and difficult a process it is, but to be frank, telling us how overly complex and bureaucratic your internal organisation structure is does nothing to build my confidence on this matter.

Until there is at the very least a broad timeframe for release given I'll continue to assume that the update is in fact not coming at all.

I also fail to understand why some of the larger issues haven't been FAQd already. This entire book and the response to it has been, quite simply, an unprofessional mess.

Contributor

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LoneKnave wrote:
Which kinda begs the question: why tell people that you don't have an issue with something? What could that possibly achieve?

As others have said, this is why.

I'm not saying that you specifically have said anything negative in this thread, LoneKnave (I've been skimming through it at best and don't really know what has and hasn't been said yet), but it is important to practice positive communication even when you're feeling negative, especially when you're communicating across the internet. I feel that some major gaming industries have fostered a mentality that its acceptable to say rude, derogatory things online because "It's OK if you act toxically because that just tells us that you care," when in reality those comments hurt the people they're directed at psychologically. To some of the folks at Paizo, there's a fairly good chance that they're feeling as demoralized by the people on the boards as you might feel after getting a verbal scolding from your boss at work. Except that veil of ambiguity that makes so many people feel invincible online works both ways; it makes people on the receive end feel as though the entire world feels the same way. Even the most confident person crumbles to that sort of assault sooner or later.

To many people in the community, combating this negativity is important. To be blunt, we don't want to be marginalized and placed in the same consumer base as the people who are making some of the truly horrible remarks at specific Paizo employees and Paizo in general. Personally, I'm with many people in this thread: I'm getting antsy for the Advanced Class Guide errata too. But I (like many others, I'm sure) don't want all this negativity associated with my identity.


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Rushley son of Halum wrote:

At the end of the day until a date is set for the update release I and many others will continue to be unhappy. It's all well and good that you're trying to communicate about how complicated and difficult a process it is, but to be frank, telling us how overly complex and bureaucratic your internal organisation structure is does nothing to build my confidence on this matter.

Until there is at the very least a broad timeframe for release given I'll continue to assume that the update is in fact not coming at all.

I also fail to understand why some of the larger issues haven't been FAQd already. This entire book and the response to it has been, quite simply, an unprofessional mess.

Totally agree.

And I give props to all the posters who have frequently made posts communicating their dissatisfaction with the Advanced Class Guide.

I know the negativity can become tiresome, yet it keeps Paizo's standards inline with consumer standards.


I, for one, and of course, only speaking for myself, wish they would simply stop printing dead tree versions of the books, and go to a full digital distribution method. In this way, errata, faq's, etc could be applied and added to the product as they are individually created. As it is now, the ONLY things apparently stopping them from doing that for the current PDF customers, are the dead tree sellers.

The fact that they hold off until everything is done on the errata, which has no release date, yet rush the initial release because a date is predetermined, is incredibly contradictory.


CraziFuzzy wrote:

I, for one, and of course, only speaking for myself, wish they would simply stop printing dead tree versions of the books, and go to a full digital distribution method. In this way, errata, faq's, etc could be applied and added to the product as they are individually created. As it is now, the ONLY things apparently stopping them from doing that for the current PDF customers, are the dead tree sellers.

The fact that they hold off until everything is done on the errata, which has no release date, yet rush the initial release because a date is predetermined, is incredibly contradictory.

I can tell you that this would be an excellent way for them to lose business. Of all the gamers I know in this area, only one is digital version exclusive, and that one is only digital because he can find pirated copies. If he had the money, he'd buy print copies. (Note that I'm not condoning his piracy, it's bad.)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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CraziFuzzy wrote:

I, for one, and of course, only speaking for myself, wish they would simply stop printing dead tree versions of the books, and go to a full digital distribution method. In this way, errata, faq's, etc could be applied and added to the product as they are individually created. As it is now, the ONLY things apparently stopping them from doing that for the current PDF customers, are the dead tree sellers.

The fact that they hold off until everything is done on the errata, which has no release date, yet rush the initial release because a date is predetermined, is incredibly contradictory.

And at that point, I would stop purchasing their books.


Cydeth wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

I, for one, and of course, only speaking for myself, wish they would simply stop printing dead tree versions of the books, and go to a full digital distribution method. In this way, errata, faq's, etc could be applied and added to the product as they are individually created. As it is now, the ONLY things apparently stopping them from doing that for the current PDF customers, are the dead tree sellers.

The fact that they hold off until everything is done on the errata, which has no release date, yet rush the initial release because a date is predetermined, is incredibly contradictory.

And at that point, I would stop purchasing their books.

Well duh, because they wouldn't be available as books anymore...

=P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Scavion wrote:
Cydeth wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

I, for one, and of course, only speaking for myself, wish they would simply stop printing dead tree versions of the books, and go to a full digital distribution method. In this way, errata, faq's, etc could be applied and added to the product as they are individually created. As it is now, the ONLY things apparently stopping them from doing that for the current PDF customers, are the dead tree sellers.

The fact that they hold off until everything is done on the errata, which has no release date, yet rush the initial release because a date is predetermined, is incredibly contradictory.

And at that point, I would stop purchasing their books.

Well duh, because they wouldn't be available as books anymore...

=P

The point was, Cydeth would not be purchasing the PDFs either. So pick one, you're either being dense or deliberately obtuse.


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LazarX wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Cydeth wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

I, for one, and of course, only speaking for myself, wish they would simply stop printing dead tree versions of the books, and go to a full digital distribution method. In this way, errata, faq's, etc could be applied and added to the product as they are individually created. As it is now, the ONLY things apparently stopping them from doing that for the current PDF customers, are the dead tree sellers.

The fact that they hold off until everything is done on the errata, which has no release date, yet rush the initial release because a date is predetermined, is incredibly contradictory.

And at that point, I would stop purchasing their books.

Well duh, because they wouldn't be available as books anymore...

=P

The point was, Cydeth would not be purchasing the PDFs either. So pick one, you're either being dense or deliberately obtuse.

I even put an emoticon! Just a joke jeez. Some people.


CraziFuzzy wrote:

I, for one, and of course, only speaking for myself, wish they would simply stop printing dead tree versions of the books, and go to a full digital distribution method. In this way, errata, faq's, etc could be applied and added to the product as they are individually created. As it is now, the ONLY things apparently stopping them from doing that for the current PDF customers, are the dead tree sellers.

The fact that they hold off until everything is done on the errata, which has no release date, yet rush the initial release because a date is predetermined, is incredibly contradictory.

Poor books, taking the blame for Paizo's lack of commitment to an errata for the Advanced Class Guide. Yes and pencils (or dead tree sticks) are stopping the release of the new edition of Pathfinder.

There is no excuse for it, that's why Pathfinder Unchained and Occult Adventures will be two of the best books they ever released. They take criticism seriously. And Mark Seifter is on board.

The Advanced Class Guide problems can't go away as they are too big. Hopefully an errata will be published soon (digital or otherwise).


Scythia wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

I, for one, and of course, only speaking for myself, wish they would simply stop printing dead tree versions of the books, and go to a full digital distribution method. In this way, errata, faq's, etc could be applied and added to the product as they are individually created. As it is now, the ONLY things apparently stopping them from doing that for the current PDF customers, are the dead tree sellers.

The fact that they hold off until everything is done on the errata, which has no release date, yet rush the initial release because a date is predetermined, is incredibly contradictory.

I can tell you that this would be an excellent way for them to lose business. Of all the gamers I know in this area, only one is digital version exclusive, and that one is only digital because he can find pirated copies. If he had the money, he'd buy print copies. (Note that I'm not condoning his piracy, it's bad.)

That is the exact opposite of those I play with. We have a couple players who've purchased the Core Rulebook in hardcover, and a couple of the GM's have the APG I think, but everything else is a PDF loaded up on a tablet. I know very few people who even purchase physical books of any sort anymore, and that's especially true for books that are continually referenced, and gain benefits from a search feature, like gaming rulebooks do.

So what game system would you move to if Paizo stopped printing books, but continued to produce game rules and content, and actually fixed errors in a more timely manner, and were able to reword rules as they go instead of having to have thousands of FAQ's?

I, and everyone I play with, buy Paizo content to play a game, not to fill a bookshelf.

Liberty's Edge

Most people still buy print books and print is not going away any time soon. The number of folks going all digital is certainly increasing, but they are still very much in the minority.

Print is still very much were it's it for the majority of the book buying public

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marc Radle wrote:

Most people still buy print books and print is not going away any time soon. The number of folks going all digital is certainly increasing, but they are still very much in the minority.

Print is still very much were it's it for the majority of the book buying public

Go back in time and substitute "books" for "snail mail", "mp3 players", "compact cameras" or "palmtops". See how these turned out.

Our hobby, being notoriously hostile to technology, will likely hold out slightly longer than other areas, but Resistance is Futile.


Marc Radle wrote:

Most people still buy print books and print is not going away any time soon. The number of folks going all digital is certainly increasing, but they are still very much in the minority.

Print is still very much were it's it for the majority of the book buying public

While it is true, that more physical books are still being sold than electronic version, when you remove textbooks and children's books, which in many cases are either not an option, or not as practical to go electronic, the numbers become much more even. That was not the core of my point though. I only brought it up to show that electronic distribution is a very viable method. My main point, however, was that from both the publisher's and consumer's perspective, and specifically in regard to any sort of rule book, code book, or technical manual, electronic should be preferred - if not for it's convenience and ease of use (searching and hyperlinking are huge) - but for it's maintainability alone.

In the end, I very rarely even refer to my PDF's (some of which I have purchased and not even downloaded) - though I still purchase them to support the company - as I prefer d20pfsrd.com to any version of the core rulebook, mainly because it is a living, heavily hyperlinked single source, combining all the rules in a convenient database, with a search function.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

Most people still buy print books and print is not going away any time soon. The number of folks going all digital is certainly increasing, but they are still very much in the minority.

Print is still very much were it's it for the majority of the book buying public

While it is true, that more physical books are still being sold than electronic version, when you remove textbooks and children's books, which in many cases are either not an option, or not as practical to go electronic, the numbers become much more even. That was not the core of my point though. I only brought it up to show that electronic distribution is a very viable method. My main point, however, was that from both the publisher's and consumer's perspective, and specifically in regard to any sort of rule book, code book, or technical manual, electronic should be preferred - if not for it's convenience and ease of use (searching and hyperlinking are huge) - but for it's maintainability alone.

In the end, I very rarely even refer to my PDF's (some of which I have purchased and not even downloaded) - though I still purchase them to support the company - as I prefer d20pfsrd.com to any version of the core rulebook, mainly because it is a living, heavily hyperlinked single source, combining all the rules in a convenient database, with a search function.

I don't know about all the other people you see around the boards with "Pathfinder [product] Subscriber" under their names, but I know that I, personally, am not just subscribing for early access to the product. I have my subscription because I'd like to have the physical copy as well as the PDF. I don't have the commitment to buy every single book in the core line, but I can deal with the player companions. Not subscribing and just buying the PDFs would probably save something like 50% due to shipping costs, but I like having the print.

Most of the non-player companion books that I do buy, I'll buy as PDFs. For the convenience of having them anywhere I have my computer, and for the reduced price. I'm still likely to check them out at the FLGS before I make the decision to buy the PDF. I did that for Ultimate Equipment and decided to buy deadwood because with all the flipping through pages a book like that includes, a physical book just seems better. I wouldn't trade it out for a PDF even if you paid me back the price difference.


This is likely a result of a predominance of artistic sorts in this particular market - I for one, as an engineer, however, see absolutely no reason why flipping through pages of a physical book is in any way superior to pressing page up and page down on a keyboard.

So, while I understand where this preference is originating, I still have not gotten an answer to my query of what the player base would do if Paizo DID stop making the print editions. The only proposed answer was 'stop buying from them' - but I can't believe that a majority, or even a significant minority, would give up their hobby instead of simply making the transition to a digital format. Many 3rd party products are only available digitally, and yet they are still purchased.


PF appeals to grognadism. The entire thing is here because people refused to change from 3rd to begin with. The guy who throws a hissy fit because he's 'forced' to upgrade to a superior format is basically the target audience.


LoneKnave wrote:
PF appeals to grognadism. The entire thing is here because people refused to change from 3rd to begin with. The guy who throws a hissy fit because he's 'forced' to upgrade to a superior format is basically the target audience.

It's not "grognadism" that got me to play pathfinder - it's that it is a complete system, that isn't restarting from scratch. To me, there's an efficiency to 'fixing what's here' instead of 'rebuilding from scratch' - the only problem is that, as of late, there has been less fixing of what is there, and more stacking bricks higher on an aging foundation. Admittedly, I think that is partly what is prompting the development of Unchained, but that, in my mind, is the wrong way to fix legacy issues, but it is the way they are forcing themselves into going by refusing to rewrite sections of old books instead.

Also, the analogy of 3.5/pf vs. 4e or 5e doesn't necessarily hold when put to print vs. e-books. print vs. e-books are the same content, where for this particular use, one could be deemed superior (in practicality, at least). when comparing 3.5/pf to 4e or 5e, you are not looking necessarily at 4e or 5e being 'superior' to 3.5, just 'different'.


CraziFuzzy wrote:

This is likely a result of a predominance of artistic sorts in this particular market - I for one, as an engineer, however, see absolutely no reason why flipping through pages of a physical book is in any way superior to pressing page up and page down on a keyboard.

So, while I understand where this preference is originating, I still have not gotten an answer to my query of what the player base would do if Paizo DID stop making the print editions. The only proposed answer was 'stop buying from them' - but I can't believe that a majority, or even a significant minority, would simply give up their hobby instead of simply making the transition to a digital format. Many 3rd party products are only available digitally, and yet they are still purchased.

Out of interest, what do you read your pdfs on?

While I'm comfortable reading small paperbacks on a kindle, I find it hopeless for the large hardbacks, especially when I'd prefer to see a double spread. As I don't have a lap-top and can't port my PC around the house (and my PC still doesn't show a full A4 page at a size I can read), it's print or nothing if I'm browsing anywhere else in the house.


Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

Out of interest, what do you read your pdfs on?

While I'm comfortable reading small paperbacks on a kindle, I find it hopeless for the large hardbacks, especially when I'd prefer to see a double spread. As I don't have a lap-top and can't port my PC around the house (and my PC still doesn't show a full A4 page at a size I can read), it's print or nothing if I'm browsing anywhere else in the house.

As I mentioned, I don't often 'read' my PDF's. I paid for them to pay for the content, but find d20pfsrd.com to be far superior for rule lookups.

When I am reading them, it is either on my PC at my desk with 2 wide-screen monitors, or on an aging 10" android tablet. The tablet is also used as my character sheet, via Hero Lab.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
PF appeals to grognadism. The entire thing is here because people refused to change from 3rd to begin with. The guy who throws a hissy fit because he's 'forced' to upgrade to a superior format is basically the target audience.

It's not "grognadism" that got me to play pathfinder - it's that it is a complete system, that isn't restarting from scratch. To me, there's an efficiency to 'fixing what's here' instead of 'rebuilding from scratch' - the only problem is that, as of late, there has been less fixing of what is there, and more stacking bricks higher on an aging foundation. Admittedly, I think that is partly what is prompting the development of Unchained, but that, in my mind, is the wrong way to fix legacy issues, but it is the way they are forcing themselves into going by refusing to rewrite sections of old books instead.

Also, the analogy of 3.5/pf vs. 4e or 5e doesn't necessarily hold when put to print vs. e-books. print vs. e-books are the same content, where for this particular use, one could be deemed superior (in practicality, at least). when comparing 3.5/pf to 4e or 5e, you are not looking necessarily at 4e or 5e being 'superior' to 3.5, just 'different'.

Wasn't making an analogy. I think that PF appeals intentionally to the mindset that resists change, and so it appeals to the kind of people who demand prints over PDFs. That's all.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Alexander Augunas wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
Which kinda begs the question: why tell people that you don't have an issue with something? What could that possibly achieve?

As others have said, this is why.

I'm not saying that you specifically have said anything negative in this thread, LoneKnave (I've been skimming through it at best and don't really know what has and hasn't been said yet), but it is important to practice positive communication even when you're feeling negative, especially when you're communicating across the internet. I feel that some major gaming industries have fostered a mentality that its acceptable to say rude, derogatory things online because "It's OK if you act toxically because that just tells us that you care," when in reality those comments hurt the people they're directed at psychologically. To some of the folks at Paizo, there's a fairly good chance that they're feeling as demoralized by the people on the boards as you might feel after getting a verbal scolding from your boss at work. Except that veil of ambiguity that makes so many people feel invincible online works both ways; it makes people on the receive end feel as though the entire world feels the same way. Even the most confident person crumbles to that sort of assault sooner or later.

To many people in the community, combating this negativity is important. To be blunt, we don't want to be marginalized and placed in the same consumer base as the people who are making some of the truly horrible remarks at specific Paizo employees and Paizo in general. Personally, I'm with many people in this thread: I'm getting antsy for the Advanced Class Guide errata too. But I (like many others, I'm sure) don't want all this negativity associated with my identity.

I think this can be seen with Mythic and Wrath of the Righteous.

Both definitely have issues - as someone who is trying to run the latter using the former, I can vouch for that. I'm probably going to start houseruling before we reach Book 4, and I've already banned a couple of abilities. But I like the concept. :)

However, the forum response was so venomous* that Paizo seems to have totally abandoned Mythic, at least for PCs. No attempts to fix or errata the system, no guides on how to use or add Mythic**, just "everyone hates Mythic, why bother?"

Which is disappointing! There's a lot of cool and innovative Mythic options, once you've cleared away toxic elements like Foe-Biter and Channel Power. Options that Paizo seems to have thrown away because customers' response was so wildly negative. :(

I'd like to see an effort made to repair Mythic, but I doubt we'll ever get one. sigh

*No offense meant to those posters - I understand the anger, and I should note that despite the passion and negativity, there did seem to be an effort to remain polite.

**First-party, anyway. Legendary Games is on it, I'm told. :)


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Alexander Augunas wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
Which kinda begs the question: why tell people that you don't have an issue with something? What could that possibly achieve?
As others have said, this is why.

I can respect the rest of your post, but:

The scientist cited in that article is a certified hack. The movie cited in the article is basically a recruit tool for a cult/an attempt to cash in on new age "quantum/waves" pseudoscience with an underground feel.


LoneKnave wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
PF appeals to grognadism. The entire thing is here because people refused to change from 3rd to begin with. The guy who throws a hissy fit because he's 'forced' to upgrade to a superior format is basically the target audience.

It's not "grognadism" that got me to play pathfinder - it's that it is a complete system, that isn't restarting from scratch. To me, there's an efficiency to 'fixing what's here' instead of 'rebuilding from scratch' - the only problem is that, as of late, there has been less fixing of what is there, and more stacking bricks higher on an aging foundation. Admittedly, I think that is partly what is prompting the development of Unchained, but that, in my mind, is the wrong way to fix legacy issues, but it is the way they are forcing themselves into going by refusing to rewrite sections of old books instead.

Also, the analogy of 3.5/pf vs. 4e or 5e doesn't necessarily hold when put to print vs. e-books. print vs. e-books are the same content, where for this particular use, one could be deemed superior (in practicality, at least). when comparing 3.5/pf to 4e or 5e, you are not looking necessarily at 4e or 5e being 'superior' to 3.5, just 'different'.

Wasn't making an analogy. I think that PF appeals intentionally to the mindset that resists change, and so it appeals to the kind of people who demand prints over PDFs. That's all.

While that might be true, that many prefer the old rules AND the old methods, I don't think anyone is necessarily predisposed to the old method simply because they prefer the old rules. Personally, I would have loved to have a digital version of the 2e PHB back in '89, if it could have fit on a C64 floppy disc. It's far more likely that many who like the old rules are simply USED to the old method, because the new method has never been properly utilized for the old rules.

Grand Lodge

Guys, we can buy pdfs and printed books, pdfs are updated when an update comes out, an handy sheet that can be printed is produced for the ones that have the physical book.
what's the matter?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CraziFuzzy wrote:
This is likely a result of a predominance of artistic sorts in this particular market - I for one, as an engineer, however, see absolutely no reason why flipping through pages of a physical book is in any way superior to pressing page up and page down on a keyboard.

I'm an engineer and far from being an artist. Compared to a laptop, print books are more versatile in location like in bed, passing quickly around the table, etc. (You mention page up, so I figure laptop - the rest of these apply to tablets, too). They "load" instantly. They can be passed around without thorny legal issues or depriving me of my entire library while someone else is reading them. All these mean they're better for my browsing and some tabletop usage.

As for how it would impact me as a customer, I wouldn't preemptively buy things I would buy core RPG books, but only buy other things as I need them. This is half because of the free PDF and half because of instant delivery. There's also a smidgen of not worrying about it selling out, so I guess those halves are more like 40%.


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Manuelexar wrote:

Guys, we can buy pdfs and printed books, pdfs are updated when an update comes out, an handy sheet that can be printed is produced for the ones that have the physical book.

what's the matter?

My issue was how Paizo treats the different distribution types. They refrain from releasing an update while there are still old version of the print on store shelves. Also, the process is much longer because of physical printing. Currently, the ACG errata is not being released because it is being reviewed and tweaked for formatting, partly to ensure the the number of pages in the printed book that need to be changed are minimized (so if they are adding a significant amount of text to a page, they might have to shrink images or tables, or other sections of the text on the same page to prevent it from needing to affect an extra page. These are complications that are present because of physical printing, and would not be a significant issue in digital only distribution. Also, since they need to issue physical books as full reprints, it eliminates the opportunity for 'mini erratas' to tackle high priority issues until they have a completed a massive errata campaign and issue the next printing order.

In short, the restrictions of physical media hold back the progress of the game system as a whole.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CraziFuzzy wrote:
Manuelexar wrote:

Guys, we can buy pdfs and printed books, pdfs are updated when an update comes out, an handy sheet that can be printed is produced for the ones that have the physical book.

what's the matter?

My issue was how Paizo treats the different distribution types. They refrain from releasing an update while there are still old version of the print on store shelves. Also, the process is much longer because of physical printing. Currently, the ACG errata is not being released because it is being reviewed and tweaked for formatting, partly to ensure the the number of pages in the printed book that need to be changed are minimized (so if they are adding a significant amount of text to a page, they might have to shrink images or tables, or other sections of the text on the same page to prevent it from needing to affect an extra page. These are complications that are present because of physical printing, and would not be a significant issue in digital only distribution. Also, since they need to issue physical books as full reprints, it eliminates the opportunity for 'mini erratas' to tackle high priority issues until they have a completed a massive errata campaign and issue the next printing order.

In short, the restrictions of physical media hold back the progress of the game system as a whole.

Layout is still a concern in PDF only formats. I suspect the 3PP folks have a better notion here than I do, but you can tell Paizo takes pains to make sure there isn't empty space and things that take most of page take exactly one page.

You're right that from a business perspective, microedits are feasible in PDF but not print, but redownloading monthly would also be a hassle.


Berinor wrote:
Layout is still a concern in PDF only formats. I suspect the 3PP folks have a better notion here than I do, but you can tell Paizo takes pains to make sure there isn't empty space and things that take most of page take exactly one page.

True, but it is much easier inserting text when it is allowed to lightly shift the text on the next page or two than being forced to make it fit onto the same page.

Berinor wrote:
You're right that from a business perspective, microedits are feasible in PDF but not print, but redownloading monthly would also be a hassle.

Not nearly as much of a hassle as having to houserule around bad wordings in the book that could otherwise be easily fixed, or having to remember if something is referenced or clarified in an online-only FAQ.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CraziFuzzy wrote:
Berinor wrote:
Layout is still a concern in PDF only formats. I suspect the 3PP folks have a better notion here than I do, but you can tell Paizo takes pains to make sure there isn't empty space and things that take most of page take exactly one page.

True, but it is much easier inserting text when it is allowed to lightly shift the text on the next page or two than being forced to make it fit onto the same page.

Berinor wrote:
You're right that from a business perspective, microedits are feasible in PDF but not print, but redownloading monthly would also be a hassle.
Not nearly as much of a hassle as having to houserule around bad wordings in the book that could otherwise be easily fixed, or having to remember if something is referenced or clarified in an online-only FAQ.

I don't disagree with those. I mostly wanted to temper with some counterpoints since your posts came across with a lot of certainty.

In all honesty, my preferences (and those like me) are likely not the biggest sticking point. I know the game store market is important to Pathfinder growing and thriving. If they moved to an all-digital format, they would lose real estate and buy-in from brick and mortar stores. That means growth would come exclusively from word of mouth and PFS (a significant population, though likely not close to a majority) would have a lot more trouble finding places to play.

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