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Except you cannot sneak attack with a garrote.Note that Sap Master will be less than effective on a Strangler, as Sap Master only triggers on flat-footed targets. Grappling does not make the target flat-footed, nor does pinning.No, but Catch Off-Guard plus using a rope as an improvised Garrote does.
A Strangler brawler can.
Garrotes are a trap. They have some of the worst rules in the entire system. Don't use them, you will be disappointed.
Instead, pick up This Belt and reflavor it's Constrict as a garrote-style attack.
Honestly I would say the SA damage from strangler would apply regardless of weapon. Though that might be an FAQ worty question.
Why not use an improvised Dan Bong. Wouldn't that do the trick?
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Thank you all for your input.
I understood from the start that I would need another method to flat-foot my opponents. I'm still debating the easiest way to do this. 4 levels in the rogue/scout archetype was always my "go too" for flat-footing. The character also happens to be dipping 2 or 4 levels into White-Haired witch, giving it the alertness prerequisite for Sleepless Detective. So I could just try to rely on invisibility too, even if it is unreliable.
But with just 1 Strangler/Snakebiter Brawler, 4 Scout Kitsune-Trickster Rogue, 1 Sleepless Detective and 2 White-Haired Witch...I feel like I'm on the verge of doing something even with my subpair BAB.
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My barbarian/ninja with greater grapple and strangler feat was pretty badass... about a year ago. Not sure if he would hold up to the brawler...
He was Barbarian 2 / Ninja 4 when we put the campaign on pause I believe... (with no plans to further add to barbarian... all I wanted was Rage and Uncanny Dodge)
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.
If I am trying to do non-lethal damage with a coin purse, I have an improvised SAP. If I am trying to grapple someone with a chair leg, I have an improvised Dan Bong.
What else would you call it? I am not saying that you necessarlly get the +2 to Grapple, but surely you can use an improvised weapon as the weapon you are trying to improvise.
It is not as if I will take a rope and be able to damage as per a sword. It would be as per whip.
The only mention of Improvised Weapons in the FAQ allows you to use a 'real' weapon as an improvised one. What are you basing you claim on?
Calling a mop a ranseur is not valid, I agree. Finding an item with a long pole and a metal head that resembles a ranseur and calling it a ranseur should not be to big of a deal.
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There's a couple ways to get them flat footed:
First, and most common, is the Scout Archetype.
Second, is to use a Temple Sword
Third, and best matching your style, is to tie them up. If being tied up means they become helpless, then your done, sap master away.
If not, consider getting some manacles. See the rules quotes below for details...
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. In addition, a helpless character is treated as having a Dexterity of 0, giving him a –5 penalty to AC against both melee and ranged attacks (for a total of –9 against melee and –5 against ranged). A helpless character is also flat-footed.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Manacles can bind a Medium creature.
EDIT: And of course the Catch-off guard feat
So again, if you have an improvised Dan Bong, what rule are you using to say you don't gain the ability to grapple with it?
I have a character that uses a Monkey's Fist as an improvised Sap. I do non-lethal damage and gain the benefits of Catch Off Guard.
Are you saying it should not do non-lethal damage?
All a Dan Bong is, is a short piece of wood. If you can improvise a Long Spear into a non-reach weapon, surely you can improvise a piece of wood into... a piece of wood.
A club is much larger, especially larger around. A Dan Bong is a much more slender stick, not log, meant to entwine limbs. A club sized weapon would be much to thick to do that. Unless fighting giants, I guess.
So we agree that there are no real rules and that both of us are using our interpretation, correct? The link that you posted has nothing to do with how or whether one can apply weapon qualities to improvised weapons.
If a sap does non-lethal damage, it is only logical that an improvised one does as well. The improvised weapon is listed as doing damage that is a reasonable match. "Upgrading" a non-lethal weapon to a lethal one is not a reasonable match.
If I made an improvised Bolas, say a length of rope with two monkey fists, of course trip and non-lethal would apply. That is the only point of the weapon. It isn't an improvised coil rope with weighted ends for doing bludgeoning damage thingy. It is an improvised bolas.
Improvised weapons are less effective versions, not ineffective versions.
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@Komoda
If you improvise specific weapons you that you have made in a hurry. You are using craft rules not improvised weapon rules. To improvise specific weapons to get there properties is house rule terretorie and Will be annoying at the table with possible arguments over what counts as what.
RAW is RAI. To believe otherwise is not logical.
It is true that the weapon table lists the damage of the Sap as 1d6. But that damage is non-lethal, as pointed out by the "trait". That does not mean that a Sap does lethal damage unless you wish. It only does non-lethal.
Other traits would absolutely be available. Reach is clearly available. It is not based on damage or size, but of course you can have an improvised long spear. And if you did, it would clearly have reach.
While I can see a strong argument for not granting the +2 to grapples that a Dan Bong gets, I can see a strong argument for allowing it to be used in a grapple.
My first point was that according to the entire entry under Sap, not just the one PART of the entry on the weapon list, but the whole entire entry, a Sap does non-lethal damage. If an improvised weapon does the same type, it would also do non-lethal. A "reasonable match" to a coin purse filled with sand, in my opinion, is not as dangerous as a light mace. Just as a pointy stick that is 10' long would not be a "reasonable match" to a morning star.
Do you ignore the "Type" column just as you ignore the "Special" column?
Where is the RAW that says all weapons transform into 5' reach, have no traits, and deal only lethal damage?
That is apparently how you interrupt the line, "To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match."
All that says is, To determine the size category and appropriate damage... It is only telling you how to figure out those two parts. It is silent on the rest of the parts.
It does not say anything like, "Only size and weapon damage are determined by the chart and every other feature of every improvised weapon is exactly the same."
I understand that my last sentence is how you read the rules for improvised weapons, and that you are calling it RAW, but it is not written that way. That is why I say, the often touted claim, "Not RAW" is often not true. All RAW requires interpretation. Without it, Pathfinder is a useless rules system.
Your interpretation may be correct. I am experienced enough with these forums to know that the game follows so many different versions of logic that one cannot be applied to all parts. And as such, it is practically impossible to "prove" a rule with logic. It often comes down to the Devs' opinion.
We have the Rule 0 and the GM's opinion for my table. You just seemed so adamant that I was incorrect that I thought I might have missed something that was written somewhere, not just come to a different conclusion than you did.
RAW is RAI. To believe otherwise is not logical.
It is true that the weapon table lists the damage of the Sap as 1d6. But that damage is non-lethal, as pointed out by the "trait". That does not mean that a Sap does lethal damage unless you wish. It only does non-lethal.
Other traits would absolutely be available. Reach is clearly available. It is not based on damage or size, but of course you can have an improvised long spear. And if you did, it would clearly have reach.
While I can see a strong argument for not granting the +2 to grapples that a Dan Bong gets, I can see a strong argument for allowing it to be used in a grapple.
I Think where you deviate from my perspective is that you seem to belive, that you improvise specific weapons. Where you really hit folks with a coin purse, a flag pole or what ever. Improvised weapons are not makeshift copies of the normal weapons, it is about hitting folks with what is at hand.
I Think where you deviate from my perspective is that you seem to belive, that you improvise specific weapons. Where you really hit folks with a coin purse, a flag pole or what ever. Improvised weapons are not makeshift copies of the normal weapons, it is about hitting folks with what is at hand.RAW is RAI. To believe otherwise is not logical.
It is true that the weapon table lists the damage of the Sap as 1d6. But that damage is non-lethal, as pointed out by the "trait". That does not mean that a Sap does lethal damage unless you wish. It only does non-lethal.
Other traits would absolutely be available. Reach is clearly available. It is not based on damage or size, but of course you can have an improvised long spear. And if you did, it would clearly have reach.
While I can see a strong argument for not granting the +2 to grapples that a Dan Bong gets, I can see a strong argument for allowing it to be used in a grapple.
That is clearly a valid interpretation, but not one I have ever considered. I always imagined what I was turning into a certain thing.
Um... Sap Adept/Sap Master can only be used for non-lethal bludgeoning sneak attacks. Whether or not you can use a garrote or improvised weapon is pointless as it doesn't work with Sap Master unless the weapon is dealing non-lethal bludgeoning damage.
Um... Sap Adept/Sap Master can only be used for non-lethal bludgeoning sneak attacks. Whether or not you can use a garrote or improvised weapon is pointless as it doesn't work with Sap Master unless the weapon is dealing non-lethal bludgeoning damage.True, but the type of damage dealt is up to the GM. Or you can just ask 'Is there anything around that will deal bludgeoning damage if I use it as an improvised weapon?". The answer to this should almost always be yes, as bludgeoning is probably the simplest damage type. Slashing and Piercing take a bit more planning (broken glass bottle, plank with nails, etc.).
Here's the problem, you can't use an improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage to make a non-lethal sneak attack because it doesn't have the non-lethal ability (like the Sap does). Improvised weapons don't have any weapon properties at all, because you are not improvising it 'as X weapon' you only compare damage to the most relevant weapon.
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
So if a weapon is most similar to say.... a bladed scarf, then you use a bladed scarfs damage, and that's it. Pathfinder is a permissive game, it allows you to do what it says you can do. It doesn't say you can take on weapon properties, so you can't do so.
So, in order to use Sap Adept/Master, you need a weapon that deals both bludgeoning damage, and can be used to make non-lethal attacks without penalty. There's only a handful of weapons that have the non-lethal quality, and outside of those specific weapons, you need to use the merciful magic weapon ability. In order to use a slashing or piercing weapon with Sap Adept/Master, you'd also need the feat weapon versatility.
Honestly, the best Sap Adept/Master users are those who use their fist, because then they can also take the feat knockout artist which can only be used during a non-lethal unarmed strike sneak attack. As unarmed strikes have the non-lethal quality, it qualifies for both Sap Adept/Master and Knockout Artist. This gives you a +3 damage bonus per sneak attack die when using an unarmed strike to make non-lethal, bludgeoning sneak attack, and you get double the dice (and double the bonus) if the opponent is flat-footed.
No, flanking does not allow Sap Master to work. You must have a flat-footed target.
Note that Sap Master will be less than effective on a Strangler, as Sap Master only triggers on flat-footed targets. Grappling does not make the target flat-footed, nor does pinning.
Pinning denies the target its dex bonus, which normally is the qualifier for applying sneak attack and sneak attack effects.
Is sap master even more restricted than normal sneak attack?
Yes, they must be flat-footed.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
You can still take a penalty to attack to do Non-Lethal damage. My Sap Master character has Blungeneer feat where she does not take that penalty.
So, flanking does not allow me to do Sap Master things?
but sneek attack dosent work, then.
Edit: sorry missed the text in blugeoner that allow sneek on subdual.
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Weapon Versatility is actually only taken once and it applies to anything you have weapon focus with.
Using it with splash weapons was discovered pretty quickly
Are you talking about Alchemist Bombs?
That is a highly contested application.
Just like the interaction of Weapon Focus(Ray), and Weapon Versatility.
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You don't "wield" the blade of an axe, you "wield" an axe.
Look to the rules, and references to wielding ranged weapons are all over the place.
If you are trying to say that no one ever "wields" a ranged weapon, well, I find such a stance to be completely ridiculous.
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So, because a weapon fires a projectile, you never actually wield said weapon?
I cannot even support this as a valid view.
Look, outside of a few exceptions, which happen to be poorly worded, I go with Sean K Reynolds explanation of what wielding means.
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That doesn't change the benefit of the feat.
Firing a Bow, or throwing Shuriken, using a Rope Dart, or hitting with an unarmed strike, all apply.
You are looking alter the definition of wield, to apply to differently, for this feat only.
In fact, it makes no sense that you wield, and attack with a weapon, but also don't wield and attack with a weapon, because the ammunition is making the attack.
Hell, how would Weapon Focus, or Weapon Specialization apply, using this logic?
If Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization apply to projectile weapons, then the feat must apply, as the feats have you choose Bow, or Pistol, and not arrow, or bullet.