The Non-Mystic Theurge


Product Discussion


I see a lot of threads about the Mystic Theurge. With the Mystic Theurge limited to 10 levels of dual progression and with the recent SLA FAQ update update, the Mystic Theurge doesn't get dual 9th level spells until 24th level.

I don't see a lot of threads about the Non-Mystic Theurge hybrid class from Kobold Press. This class gets you dual 9th level spells at 18th level.

You lose the cleric's channeling ability and you lose the wizard's specialization option. You also don't get a lot of spells per day per level. But did I mention dual 9th level spells?

What do you think? How does this class stack up?


The reason you don't see talk about it is because it's third party and not PFS legal

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@Chess Pwn
There are those DM that allow 3rd party resources, I am one such DM


There are DMs who use 3pp, but they don't tend to post much here. Most of our regulars are PFS and thus stick to non-3pp.

But really, discussion of 3pp belongs on the sites of those companies and not on Paizo's.

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Yet these 3rd party companies put forth the effort to have their resources match up with paizo's Pathfinder series. As such, because they use Paizo's system, 3rd party should be allowed to be discussed.

Remember Dreamscarred Press has become the 'official' unofficial psionics of Pathfinder.


It's not that they should be disallowed here so much as that here isn't the place people should go to discuss them.


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These are the Pathfinder forums. Third party publishers write content specifically for the Pathfinder system.

Splitting the discussion up into thirty different forums, one for each third party publisher, would just mean lots of headaches and little discussion.

Liberty's Edge

I think, personally,these forums are fine for such discussion.

Looking at the class it looks potent. I'm on my phone so I didn't look at everything thoroughly but it looks to get as many spells as druid would at base,so with high ability scores I would imagine it Gets as many spells per day as a specialized wizard. Assuming one pumps both wisdom and intelligence.

It's ability to cast two spells at once seems very strong, probably too strong.

The Chassis seems a lot, it gets a lot of bonus feats and abilities to mix in with its hybrid casting.

I'd say it's probably too powerful.

Liberty's Edge

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Hey Will!

You are perfectly fine posting about a third party class or product here on Paizo's forums. Paizo loves third party companies - heck, they even sell loads of 3PP stuff in their online store and even feature top third party companies on this site's front page. They even set up the Third Party forums, which you correctly posted to! Not sure why someone always feels the need to make a comment about 3PP not being PFS legal, since we all know that TONS of folks play in home Pathfinder games and not in PFS.

Glad you like the Theurge class from Kobold Press. It has proven to be very popular. In fact, the Theurge, and the New Paths Compendium the class comes from have been very well reviewed.

@DinosaursOnIce, fair enough. However, I can tell you the Theurge was extensively and thoroughly play tested and, in actual play, is a very balanced class :)

Sovereign Court

It seems to be a decent class. Look like the Samsaran again are perfectly made for this class, getting +2 int, +2 wis, toss in mystic past life to grab spells from Summoner, Hunter, Shaman or whatever you need for your build.

Liberty's Edge

Marc Radle wrote:

Hey Will!

You are perfectly fine posting about a third party class or product here on Paizo's forums. Paizo loves third party companies - heck, they even sell loads of 3PP stuff in their online store and even feature top third party companies on this site's front page. They even set up the Third Party forums, which you correctly posted to! Not sure why someone always feels the need to make a comment about 3PP not being PFS legal, since we all know that TONS of folks play in home Pathfinder games and not in PFS.

Glad you like the Theurge class from Kobold Press. It has proven to be very popular. In fact, the Theurge, and the New Paths Compendium the class comes from have been very well reviewed.

@DinosaursOnIce, fair enough. However, I can tell you the Theurge was extensively and thoroughly play tested and, in actual play, is a very balanced class :)

It might very well be, I was just giving my first opinion after a cursorary glance. Either way, it does look like a lot of fun.


Not sure how that was even a debate, since Paizo themselves have a section to talk about third party products, but OK...

The ability to cast two spells at once is good, but limited in times you can use. Even at level 20 you can only do it three times. It's a nice alpha assault though.

The initial lack of spells might be a problem. Getting bonus spells for both intelligence and wisdom does help with that. You will likely have a few more spells than a normal wizard by the end.

All in all it looks pretty balanced. The split focus between intelligence and wisdom is pretty fun - if you want to be powerful you do need both. Loosing out on school abilities, channeling and domains doesn't hurt too much, but does help with those additional bonus spells you'll likely pick up.

Designer

Marc Radle wrote:

Hey Will!

You are perfectly fine posting about a third party class or product here on Paizo's forums. Paizo loves third party companies - heck, they even sell loads of 3PP stuff in their online store and even feature top third party companies on this site's front page. They even set up the Third Party forums, which you correctly posted to!

As a note to explain the seemingly bizarre posts at the top of the thread, it's because he actually didn't correctly post here; I moved it here. It was originally in like PFS or general discussion or something like that.


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Thnaks for doing so Mark. The conversation is hilarious, despite the PFS stuff.

It really brings into stark and sharp focus the erroneous belief that Paizo itself was/is not a 3PP, and that other 3PP's and their products are:

A: not legion or

B: welcome on Paizo's forum.

Yay!


Mark Seifter wrote:
As a note to explain the seemingly bizarre posts at the top of the thread, it's because he actually didn't correctly post here; I moved it here. It was originally in like PFS or general discussion or something like that.

Ahh... my bad. I posted in General Discussion. I didn't see the separate area for 3PP-related content.

Designer

Will.Spencer wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
As a note to explain the seemingly bizarre posts at the top of the thread, it's because he actually didn't correctly post here; I moved it here. It was originally in like PFS or general discussion or something like that.
Ahh... my bad. I posted in General Discussion. I didn't see the separate area for 3PP-related content.

No worries. 3pps rock, and we love it when people discuss them, but this subforum is the place for it (in no small part because doing so avoids posts like the ones you got at the start).


JonGarrett wrote:
All in all it looks pretty balanced. The split focus between intelligence and wisdom is pretty fun - if you want to be powerful you do need both.

If your group uses Adventurer’s Handbook: Genius Guide Volume 1, you can use the Spell Finesse feat to work around that.

Spell Finesse
Choose one of the following ability scores – Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma. All your spellcasting calculations are now based on this ability, including maximum level of spell you can cast, spell save DCs, and bonus spells per day.

That may unbalance the Theurge class a bit.


Forest Guardian Press wrote:

Thnaks for doing so Mark. The conversation is hilarious, despite the PFS stuff.

It really brings into stark and sharp focus the erroneous belief that Paizo itself was/is not a 3PP, and that other 3PP's and their products are:

A: not legion or

B: welcome on Paizo's forum.

Yay!

A: Basically, they aren't "legion" if they aren't legal in PFS. This wouldn't so strongly be the case if rules and advice questions for PFS could be answered in PFS, but they are all pushed out to the rules and advice boards, which strongly encourages all rules and advice discussions to be PFS compatible.

B: They are welcome in their own place in the Paizo boards, which is where this thread is now.


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Melkiador wrote:
A: Basically, they aren't "legion" if they aren't legal in PFS.

You misunderstand what legion means. Legion means 'in great volume or numbers' and in this context is referring to the number of active 3rd party companies operating on or through Paizo's site. Which if you look at the store, there are a great many. So FGP is quite correct in his statement.

Quote:
This wouldn't so strongly be the case if rules and advice questions for PFS could be answered in PFS, but they are all pushed out to the rules and advice boards, which strongly encourages all rules and advice discussions to be PFS compatible.

Admittedly this part is annoying, especially for those of us who find PFS incredibly overrated.


My big question would be whether you can go mystic theurge with it. If you can then it would be incredibly unbalanced as you should be able to reach 9th level spells by level 11 if you do not allow sla's to give early access and by level 10 if you do.


Smacked Fly wrote:
My big question would be whether you can go mystic theurge with it. If you can then it would be incredibly unbalanced as you should be able to reach 9th level spells by level 11 if you do not allow sla's to give early access and by level 10 if you do.

This came up in another thread. Marc said no. And in another similar multi spell list class - the Magister from RGG, it has a line that says the class cannot be use to qualify for both arcane and divine spell requirements at the same time. A good rule of thumb.


Perhaps the ability to prepare any spell from any list is the scarier part. If you have a Summoner or Paladin buddy who likes to scribe scrolls, or just so happen to come across some scrolls from those lists, you could get 1st level Lesser Restoration, 2nd level Haste, 4th level Greater Angelic Aspect, or 6th level Dominate Monster.


Melkiador wrote:
It's not that they should be disallowed here so much as that here isn't the place people should go to discuss them.

Why not? this IS the third party products forum.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
It's not that they should be disallowed here so much as that here isn't the place people should go to discuss them.
Why not? this IS the third party products forum.

This thread was moved to the 3rd party forum several months ago. Notice the date.

Liberty's Edge

Yep - Mark Seifter even specifically explains as much in his post(s) on March 9th ...

Speaking of the theurge, there's tons of conversation and info in the actual product forum:

New Paths Compendium

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