Martial Revenge


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Silver Crusade

Anzyr wrote:
Kletus Bob wrote:

Flying and Invisibility won’t save a caster alone.

- A cavalier with a flying mount, Order of the sword, should pretty much one shot the wizard with a spirited charge.
- Dealing with Invisibility with 2 pairs of eyes should be doable ( Scent Tracking, Blind fight feats, perception skill focus, etc… )

What is going to be problematic is ensuring resists are stellar.
- The mount saves are easy to boost into the roof with Indomitable mount.
- As mentioned, Fortitude and Will saves for the PC, rerolls.

The hardest will be for the cavalier to prepare for no save spell situations but stopping a diving/swooping Gryphon Rider from reaching you in mid-air is not that easy. It is fast happening for the wizard too and he won’t have the luxury of time in this case, flying invisible or not.

For sport, the cavalier could always force the argument on the wizard with a net to get around concealment/miss chances and drag him for a ride through mountains, hitting every sharp rocks on the way. Good luck on concentration checks 

Maze. Kill Mount. Laugh at your lack of flight when you get back. And how do you think you can manage to sneak up on an Invisible Wizard? Serious question.

It wouldn't be that easy to kill a Griffon... besides, lets assume the cavalier has the Ioun stone that absorbs 8th or lower spells. Now what does the cocky wizard do?


Maze the mount, laugh as the cavalier plunges to the ground?


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Maze the mount, laugh as the cavalier plunges to the ground?

Maze has max 75 feet range. The cavalier can cover more than twice than that.

I`d like to see how the mage will close the cavalier to maze him given he probably also have Rhino Charge.

As for initializing combat, Invisibility last max 20 minutes, it`s not like wizard is perma invisible, only objects can be made perma invisible. Remember that scent and tracking does not care if you are invisible or not. It`s also a DC20 perception check to spot the wizard.

Same can be said about fly, it`s not permanent. The wizard probably have to use overland flight to be up there all day which is slow compared to the Gryphon fly speed. This means the cavalier can engage or disengage at will.

This fight is on, we are giving 2 round for the wizard to even cast fly and invisbility to begin with, which is by no means granted. Also, we are litterally tying both arms and legs of the cavalier here y not giving any magic armor/objects. For sure he would normally have a celestial armor, his own invisibility potion, dust of appearance and call it a day.


jawbreaker feat may be useful especially if combined with a grapple build, but it isn't easy for a non-monk to get (most monks are non-magic until level 7 though so a monk dip is still viable).


Kletus Bob wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Maze the mount, laugh as the cavalier plunges to the ground?

Maze has max 75 feet range. The cavalier can cover more than twice than that.

I`d like to see how the mage will close the cavalier to maze him given he probably also have Rhino Charge.

As for initializing combat, Invisibility last max 20 minutes, it`s not like wizard is perma invisible, only objects can be made perma invisible. Remember that scent and tracking does not care if you are invisible or not. It`s also a DC20 perception check to spot the wizard.

Same can be said about fly, it`s not permanent. The wizard probably have to use overland flight to be up there all day which is slow compared to the Gryphon fly speed. This means the cavalier can engage or disengage at will.

This fight is on, we are giving 2 round for the wizard to even cast fly and invisbility to begin with, which is by no means granted. Also, we are litterally tying both arms and legs of the cavalier here y not giving any magic armor/objects. For sure he would normally have a celestial armor, his own invisibility potion, dust of appearance and call it a day.

At the levels we're talking about, non casters can afford to buy items like "true seeing, 1xday" and the like, not to mention the higher saves that some classes have, combined with +save items and the like. The wizards are gonna have a bunch of awsomesauce spells prepped, like fly etc, but how many "no save" spells do they have?

Monks make the best mage killers - between maneuvers, spell resistance, immunity to various conditions, evasion, high saves in everything, maneuver flurries, and huge movement boots, they're already a pain for a casters. Now add in some item that allows them to fly/seeinvis/go ethereal/whatever. They don't need a flying mount, they just need to have gotten that fly item a few levels in advance, then slapped some skill points into flying. Unless the mage has also taken a bunch of flying skills, he'll get out-maneuvered. He better hope that whatever 2 spells he casts before the monk catches up will take that guy out of the fight, because if the monk saves, it's over.

Of course, the high end ultimate counter, is the mage just goes into his own extraplanar residence, and uses his own items (crystal balls, scrying items, etc) to just send forth armies of minions at whoever's trying to kill him, but if the DM does this as an NPC, he's just being a bastard now, lol.


...

Mindblank prevents you from being seen even via True Seeing.

Scent is actually REALLY bad for detecting invisible enemies. You only know the direction(not the distance) and only within 30 feet. You have to get within 5 feet of the invisible target to pinpoint the target and even then he still has total concealment. Creatures using Scent have to use a Move Action to do as well.


The wizard doesn't have to get close, they can ready. And if the cavalier is charging that means they have a clear line to the wizard, so they're in plain sight. Most people who refer to the permanently invisible mage are probably referring to the mostly permanent version. Scent only works within 30 feet and takes a move action just to get the direction (so puts you within Short range).

Again people, read the original post. No magic of any kind, including SU. Monk doesn't work because Ki Pool is SU. Custom magic items to cover a weakness don't work. Magic items of any kind don't work. It has to be a purely mundane character with purely mundane equipment. Maze is used because there's no touch attack, no saving throw, and it completely removes someone for at minimum one turn (and usually much more). Otherworldly Kimono even removes the SR check. And if you're playing a flying character and you can't deal with it, you'll find yourself returning to the world floating above a prismatic sphere/pit of lava/whatever. We can also include Limited Wish->Geas for standard action Geas (was this ever clarified?), Dazing Spell, I'm sure others can come up with more. But at the moment all we've managed to deal with is flying (by using a flying mount) and... that's it. There's a feat for mount saving throws (well, one saving throw) and Mounted Combat probably handles mount touch AC but nothing covers rider touch AC, effects without saves, and pretty much all the caster defenses (Blind-Fight only goes so far).

Edit: Actually, I think they allowed magic items but said don't count on any of them so custom items are right out and we can't assume they have access to any specific item.


How is the mage going to cast invis, mindblank, and fly in the time that the monk clicks a free-action use item and hurls himself into close range?
The moment you move, he can make a perception to figure out where you are, and you've got a penalty on that (unless you cast another spell).

I get that if you take a fully optimized combat caster, giving him a variety of metamagics and gear everyone else auto-loses (quickened vanish spell, fly, +freeclick mindblank item = 1 round foolproof escape method) but you have to assume the DM isn't going to put him through the hell of fighting one optimized caster after another. He's got to try to plan for what a wizard might have too, so I get that. But the grand majority of NPCs he's gonna go up against didn't prep for the instant escape; they're walking around with maybe a couple of long duration buffs on, and trying to use their spell slots for whatever other nefarious/benign goals they have as people, which means at best 2 spells/level designed for escape methods and protections. Unless *they* are coming for *you* and had time to plan, in which case, you should have taken a wizard char. lol


...Mind Blank, duration 24 hours. Overland Flight, duration hours/level. Ring of Invisibility, at-will. They already have them cast. They're not casting these in combat, they're long duration buffs that are already up.


rorek55 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Kletus Bob wrote:

Flying and Invisibility won’t save a caster alone.

- A cavalier with a flying mount, Order of the sword, should pretty much one shot the wizard with a spirited charge.
- Dealing with Invisibility with 2 pairs of eyes should be doable ( Scent Tracking, Blind fight feats, perception skill focus, etc… )

What is going to be problematic is ensuring resists are stellar.
- The mount saves are easy to boost into the roof with Indomitable mount.
- As mentioned, Fortitude and Will saves for the PC, rerolls.

The hardest will be for the cavalier to prepare for no save spell situations but stopping a diving/swooping Gryphon Rider from reaching you in mid-air is not that easy. It is fast happening for the wizard too and he won’t have the luxury of time in this case, flying invisible or not.

For sport, the cavalier could always force the argument on the wizard with a net to get around concealment/miss chances and drag him for a ride through mountains, hitting every sharp rocks on the way. Good luck on concentration checks 

Maze. Kill Mount. Laugh at your lack of flight when you get back. And how do you think you can manage to sneak up on an Invisible Wizard? Serious question.
It wouldn't be that easy to kill a Griffon... besides, lets assume the cavalier has the Ioun stone that absorbs 8th or lower spells. Now what does the cocky wizard do?

Greater Arcane sight would let the caster know about the ioun stone. As for the clashing rock idea there is only a concentration check for damage if it happens as the spell is being cast. There are also no rules for banging someone against a rock. Back to the ioun stone. Just heighten maze to a 9th level spell or use wish to duplicate it.


The point here stands that no one martial build can counter every caster and most APs assume the caster is prebuffed. If they know you are coming they are buffed even more. As for tactics that also depends on the GM. We dont know if his group plays on hard mode or not. If not this is a lot more likely to work.

PS: The OP has no problems with using magic items but he wont want custom magic items.


The main take away from this thread should be that casters are really cocky and oftentimes get smashed because they think they're invincible and forget that they'll die if they get their heads lopped off. The funniest case of a caster's hubris getting him killed that I've ever seen is when I grappled one and he turned into a dragon to try and beat me at my own game. A size large dragon. Which only gave him a +4 to his strength score (barely putting him at a positive modifier and still rocking his pitiful BAB) and only gave me a small penalty to grapple him. I then bit the nerd dragon's throat out because it couldn't hit me or escape my grapple and it's breath attack sucked.


Essentially, just make a guy who's hard to kill and hits really hard. Everybody's got a plan until they get hit.


Yeah, there's some truth to that Froth Maw, - and to wraithstrike, you're dead on. There's no build that's the universal mage-killer, but there are some that will make your average NPC casters' day really bad.

So, barring custom items, I'm sticking with a monk. All around it appears like they were designed to resist everything, and close the gap. Featherstep boots. Any item that allows you to see invis. And you'll have to assume that maybe not every mage will just be walking around with mindblank on 24/7, but that means that you will certainly run into a few.

He need a UMD somehow. Since it aint gonna be a class skill as a monk, either find a trait that will make it so, or plead with your gm for a one-point race trait boost to take two more class skills. You'll need it to allow for the versatility of countering certain caster's abilities, and you may consider beefing up the diplomacy skill (gather information, to find out what that mage's strengths and weaknesses are). If you're looking for the ability to pwn any mage/cleric at any time, you're not long for some disappointment. But if you're more of a magehunter type, then you find out what they can do, then find a way to break them.
Only way to beat a clever mage is to counter-prep. And pray that they aren't as ready for you as you are for them.


So a few problems with that.

Issac Daneil wrote:

Hey guys, I'm looking to make a Martial only character (No Su, SP or Spells) who is skilled at defeating magic users.

I've got my own build, centered around a Mounted Fury Barbarian w/ Boon Companion/Monstrous Mount (Griffon)/Monstrous Mount Mastery, and Greater Blind-Fight + Keen Scent. Add in all the expected Superstition, Witch Hunter, etcs.

But, I'm looking for any ideas people have to try and defeat spellcasters with some sense of reliability.

I imagine Flash Damage is one of the best, by attempting to have massive damage, and a huge initiative, but I'd like to see if we can generate ideas that work past round 1, after the mage has somehow survived the first hit.

So, any ideas for surviving: Touch spells (Melee or range), Invisibility, Flight, Teleportation, Save or Sucks, etc.

My barb turned out okay by the standard my group games at, but I'd like to hear other ideas, because I've always been so enamoured with the idea of a magic-less warrior against the magical. (Batman amongst the justice league is the best comparison)

Remember, my only additional request is: No magical abilities what so ever. I don't like to consider magical items as part of builds as well, so let's not assume a character automatically has and relies on an Agile weapon, for example.

Multiclassing is cool, of course.

Monk has a bunch of Su abilities. UMD to use scrolls/wands/whatever is spells. Both are explicitly things the OP did not want. If Su abilities are allowed the Barbarian is much better than the monk, in-class flying, better saves, reroll on a failed save, dispel magic, it's all on the first page. Every wizard/sorcerer who can cast 8th level spells should be assumed to have mind blank on all the time, the duration is 24 hours and the spell is just that good.

As for hitting hard, the OP already has that down. They are asking for advice if the alpha strike does not kill and they need to survive the counterattack. Seriously, it's all in the first post.


Froth Maw wrote:
The main take away from this thread should be that casters are really cocky and oftentimes get smashed because they think they're invincible and forget that they'll die if they get their heads lopped off. The funniest case of a caster's hubris getting him killed that I've ever seen is when I grappled one and he turned into a dragon to try and beat me at my own game. A size large dragon. Which only gave him a +4 to his strength score (barely putting him at a positive modifier and still rocking his pitiful BAB) and only gave me a small penalty to grapple him. I then bit the nerd dragon's throat out because it couldn't hit me or escape my grapple and it's breath attack sucked.

That has nothing to do with casters.


Aemesh wrote:

Yeah, there's some truth to that Froth Maw, - and to wraithstrike, you're dead on. There's no build that's the universal mage-killer, but there are some that will make your average NPC casters' day really bad.

So, barring custom items, I'm sticking with a monk. All around it appears like they were designed to resist everything, and close the gap. Featherstep boots. Any item that allows you to see invis. And you'll have to assume that maybe not every mage will just be walking around with mindblank on 24/7, but that means that you will certainly run into a few.

He need a UMD somehow. Since it aint gonna be a class skill as a monk, either find a trait that will make it so, or plead with your gm for a one-point race trait boost to take two more class skills. You'll need it to allow for the versatility of countering certain caster's abilities, and you may consider beefing up the diplomacy skill (gather information, to find out what that mage's strengths and weaknesses are). If you're looking for the ability to pwn any mage/cleric at any time, you're not long for some disappointment. But if you're more of a magehunter type, then you find out what they can do, then find a way to break them.
Only way to beat a clever mage is to counter-prep. And pray that they aren't as ready for you as you are for them.

He wont use a monk.


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yeah - so, apologize for the lack of clarity on my part. Not telling him to take a monk, just saying that without expanding his horizons/limitations, or having taken a different class, there's no way to *reliably* shut down casters. He's already removed some of the very best arrows in the quiver.

WITHIN the limits, all I can say is, boost those saves, an take a racial trait like a half-orc's warded skin or a dwarf's magic resistance to boost up the spell resistance. Ultimately without the ability to go outside of the bounds of your own class (thus the reason everyone keeps mentioning umd and the like) you're gonna suffer. Low end <mundanes, high end <casters.


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OP, if you are still here part of your problem is that there is a ceiling on what non-magic is allowed to do, while magic basically has no limits. If you have a car that can go 1,000,000 mph it still won't match a car that can go any speed the driver wants.<---Simplification of the issue, but accurate.


wraithstrike wrote:
OP, if you are still here part of your problem is that there is a ceiling on what non-magic is allowed to do, while magic basically has no limits. If you have a car that can go 1,000,000 mph it still won't match a car that can go any speed the driver wants.<---Simplification of the issue, but accurate.

nice, very succinctly put


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
The wizard doesn't have to get close, they can ready. And if the cavalier is charging that means they have a clear line to the wizard, so they're in plain sight. Most people who refer to the permanently invisible mage are probably referring to the mostly permanent version. Scent only works within 30 feet and takes a move action just to get the direction (so puts you within Short range).

Wait, if the martial class don`t get magic item in this scenario, the wizard also have to be restricted to his spell list and class abilities, no magic items there either thus no perma invisibility. This is class vs class. Celestial armor has fly and getting see invisible item is easy as mentioned. So assume no magic items in both cases.

Rhino charge is also a ready action and have a greater range than maze. If the wizard tries to close in, he get charged. You have a stand off right there and the wizard buffs are on a clock.


Kletus Bob wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
The wizard doesn't have to get close, they can ready. And if the cavalier is charging that means they have a clear line to the wizard, so they're in plain sight. Most people who refer to the permanently invisible mage are probably referring to the mostly permanent version. Scent only works within 30 feet and takes a move action just to get the direction (so puts you within Short range).

Wait, if the martial class don`t get magic item in this scenario, the wizard also have to be restricted to his spell list and class abilities, no magic items there either thus no perma invisibility. This is class vs class. Celestial armor has fly and getting see invisible item is easy as mentioned. So assume no magic items in both cases.

Rhino charge is also a ready action and have a greater range than maze. If the wizard tries to close in, he get charged. You have a stand off right there and the wizard buffs are on a clock.

Umm, I think the idea was not to allow custom items. Either way, restricting things to just the wizard's spell list is still a match in favor of the wizard. Even if your cavalier was to face a wizard with absolutely NO BUFFS on for any reason, you still wouldn't win.

Fight starts, Wizard wins initiative (familiar means that all else equal, even without initiative boosting spells the wizard will win). Once the Wizard has won initiative he casts Greater Teleport a couple 1000 feet away (not that you'd be able to tell which direction he went in), casts all of his buffs (which can include things like Astral Projection and Clone to make your attacks meaningless), and then scrys your location before committing to an assault.

The wizard can engage and disengage at will. The wizard can eventually find you no matter where you are. The wizard can make all of your attacks absolutely meaningless while doing so. Exactly what can you do to stop this from occurring?


Kaouse wrote:
Kletus Bob wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
The wizard doesn't have to get close, they can ready. And if the cavalier is charging that means they have a clear line to the wizard, so they're in plain sight. Most people who refer to the permanently invisible mage are probably referring to the mostly permanent version. Scent only works within 30 feet and takes a move action just to get the direction (so puts you within Short range).

Wait, if the martial class don`t get magic item in this scenario, the wizard also have to be restricted to his spell list and class abilities, no magic items there either thus no perma invisibility. This is class vs class. Celestial armor has fly and getting see invisible item is easy as mentioned. So assume no magic items in both cases.

Rhino charge is also a ready action and have a greater range than maze. If the wizard tries to close in, he get charged. You have a stand off right there and the wizard buffs are on a clock.

Umm, I think the idea was not to allow custom items. Either way, restricting things to just the wizard's spell list is stil a match n favor of the wizard. Even if your cavalier was to face a wizard with absolutely NO BUFFS on for any reason, you still wouldn't win.

Fight starts, Wizard wins initiative (familiar means that all else equal, even without initiative boosting spells the wizard will win). Once the Wizard has won initiative he casts Greater Teleport a couple 1000 feet away (not that you'd be able to tell which direction he went in), casts all of his buffs (which can include things like Astral Projection and Clone to make your attacks meaningless), and then scrys your location before committing to an assault.

The wizard can engage and disengage at will. The wizard can eventually find you no matter where you are. The wizard can make all of your attacks absolutely meaningless while doing so. Exactly what can you do to stop this from occurring?

Bring cookies, and play a rogue.

(bluff check: pass)
"Hello! I was just wondering, are you the Wizard Karakabus?"
Mage: "What? How did you get in here? *readies spells from his fearsome level 13 repertoire*"
Rogue: (bluff, pass) Oh, your guards sent me in. A friend of mine said you were looking for this artifact.. um, but If I was mistaken..."
Mage: "yes yes! Of course, let me see it!! *forgets the spell, eagerly rubbing hands together*"
Rogue, (bluff) "well, let's see, it's in this bag here..." *leaves bag of stale cookies on the table and steps aside*
Mage: "Wha- cookies... what's the meaning of-"
Rogue: *quick-draws merciful +3 sap as she sidesteps behind him*
Mage: *gets sneak attacked by level 13 rogue, using Sap mastery, 14d6 damage, boosting all 1's and 2's rolled to 3. takes 70 nonlethal damage and passes out.*

Of course this is wishful thinking, but, just saying, it'd be funny.


Kaouse wrote:

Umm, I think the idea was not to allow custom items. Either way, restricting things to just the wizard's spell list is still a match in favor of the wizard. Even if your cavalier was to face a wizard with absolutely NO BUFFS on for any reason, you still wouldn't win.

Fight starts, Wizard wins initiative (familiar means that all else equal, even without initiative boosting spells the wizard will win). Once the Wizard has won initiative he casts Greater Teleport a couple 1000 feet away (not that you'd be able to tell which direction he went in), casts all of his buffs (which can include things like Astral Projection and Clone to make your attacks meaningless), and then scrys your location before committing to an assault.

The wizard can engage and disengage at will. The wizard can eventually find you no matter where you are. The wizard can make all of your attacks absolutely meaningless while doing so. Exactly what can you do to stop this from occurring?

The wizard can teleport a limited number of times per day so that is not engaging and disengaging at will, but fair to say he do can it about 3 times if all his spell slot are devoted to that spell. Let’s say he teleport away, buff, scry and teleport back in. That’s a lot of rounds and spells slot used. Meanwhile the cavalier is still ready and have time to take steps to counter the wizard teleporting in. No surprise here, he is battle ready.

Cavalier just have to keep flying, wizard scry, cavalier is moving at full speed, wizard port in off the mark, cavalier moves again and is already far away. The Wizard fly speed don’t allow him to beat the cavalier flying mount speed. Cavalier evades until buffs timer runs off and there we go again. At best, wizard teleport out one last time and pray cavalier can’t track him before nightfall where he can memorize his spells.


This is not a class to class discussion. This is not a hypothetical martial character. This is someone actually playing this character as someone who hates spellcasters (well, a specific group of them anyway) and wants nothing to do with magic. We're providing solutions for the problems they know they have or suggesting hypothetical spellcasters they might have to face. The last concept I read was:

Issac Daneil wrote:
To answer the party situation; I think that would depend on the individual character. My current idea is an angry youth from a martial oriented nation that has been seized by magicians pulling an invasion. So, his opinion would be to hate magic in all it's forms, and would want to rely on no magical assistance at all.

That's why I've been focusing on wizards (well, and by extension sorcerers). I could certainly throw clerics and druids in there. But the point is that every single (legal) hypothetical spellcaster we construct is valid, because any single wizard/sorc/whatever could be that build. Unless the cavalier brings something to the table the barbarian doesn't (and in this case, it doesn't) then it's pointless to give hypothetical martial scenarios unless you can force that scenario. Unless you have a way to make every wizard come outside, in a large enough area you're out of range but a clear enough area you can charge, alone, with no backup, some way of surprising them, and some way of ensuring it's not a trap, then "I can surprise charge them for a lot of damage" is pointless. The OP even included that in the opening post, followed by "and can you give me suggestions for if this doesn't manage to kill them outright". If you have some way to force the situation, please, enlighten us.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Aemesh wrote:
How is the mage going to cast invis, mindblank, and fly in the time that the monk clicks a free-action use item and hurls himself into close range?

maze the monk, if the wizard sees that he has that iuon stone, cast teleport and teleport 500 feet up, cast feather fall as an immediate action, you now have all the time you could need. then use things like summon monster or other effects that don't actually target the monk.

it's not hard.

Silver Crusade

I have an answer to all this. Play a Minotaur as your race.


Kletus Bob wrote:
Cavalier just have to keep flying, wizard scry, cavalier is moving at full speed, wizard port in off the mark, cavalier moves again and is already far away. The Wizard fly speed don’t allow him to beat the cavalier flying mount speed.

Assuming your cavalier is getting a griffon mount by way of Monstrous Mount+Monstrous Mount Mastery, I don't see why a fly speed of 40 would be impossible for a wizard to match.


Summon Monster IX.
Ghaele Azata
150 ft fly speed.

Might require a quickened Reduce Person, but I doubt any cavalier has access to a mount 2/3 as fast. Also doubt said mount has access to ranged touch light rays from 300 feet that bypass all DR. Or cast as a 13 level cleric.


Why is everyone using Ioun stones for the Rod of Absorption effect? Unlike the actual rod, the Ioun stones require a readied action to actually do anything.

Quote:
The pale lavender and lavender-and-green stones work like a rod of absorption, but absorbing a spell requires a readied action, and these stones cannot be used to empower spells.


Actually, if you slot them in a wayfinder, they can be used as an immediate action. Still a bad item though.


I am still here, just didn't expect my thread to continue, I'm actually impressed/pleased.

This character would havbe absolutely no concerns about alchemy; and so far as my building has proceeded has come to rely on Blightburn paste to help protect from teleportation; both enemies getting away, and Mazing him/mount.
He's also relyed on special materials that are not magical, including several space metals, like Adamantine and Noqual.

If I had access to Technology, such as Numerian tech, it would also be valid, as it's not magical; (Kingmaker emphasizes how tech works in anti-magic)

The combined impression is a character who uses all that alien material to try and return home to depose the magical tyrants who have taken over his home.


I've also been looking for options to reliably nauseate the enemy mage, as it shuts down the ability to cast entirely.

Nauseated:
Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.

So far I've swapped out Blind-Fight tree (Since my superstitious Barb gets Blight-sight eventually), for the Dirty trick Chain, and going to get the Savage Dirty Trick rage power.


Really cannot emphasize this enough, do not use Blightburn. There's some caveats, there's some circumstances it might be worth it, but in all other circumstances it's a terrible idea.

If you're in a party then you're voluntarily exposing the entire party to a horrific disease that always targets a stat they care about (Con) and a stat they either care about or dumped (Cha). If they use Cha you've weakened them, if they dumped it you have two or three days before they're comatose on average.

If you're alone (with your mount) then you're exposing both you and your mount to the disease, superstition doesn't apply, and you need to pop a remove disease afterwards but have no way of actually doing so (potions are minimum caster level and it's a caster level check to actually remove the disease).

The only good way to use it reliably is with a periapt of health, but then you're relying on getting a specific magic item to save you. Well, two if you don't want your mount to get hit by it every time. Five if you want your party to use it (and they're all willing to give up their amulet slot just for you).

The other option is to have a cleric on standby (actually oracle is probably better here) repeatedly using Remove Disease to fix the damage you caused. Then you're relying on a spellcaster to help you, constantly.

Now let's get into how to use it. It's a 45 lb. box. Presumably that takes at least one hand to hold, probably two, and you need to be holding it because you need to open it and carry it with you. So you've got a one-handed weapon, at best. The spellcaster only needs to move 60 feet away from you to escape the radiation (wizards can probably identify it with a knowledge check). Your ways of locking them down are Stand Still, No Escape, and Step Up, Stand Still only works on adjacent creatures and can't stop Withdraw, No Escape doesn't work while you're on your mount, and Step Up doesn't help if they're fleeing. A readied action to follow means you're not actually doing damage to them. A reach weapon to trip would be helpful (until they fly) but you're limited to one-handed weapons because of the box and none of them have reach.

As for the tech stuff, sure, in a campaign that's designed for it. The power to run tech stuff is super rare outside of where all the tech stuff is. And you're using ranged weapons (seriously, there's very few melee tech weapons) so you don't need the mount and flying. Also you're still going to get destroyed because published tech items are... well, that one book, and maybe a smattering elsewhere, while published magic is all over the place in every book (even Ultimate Combat).


I admit, I'm not building this character with allies in mind; hence my fixation on being as self sufficient in resisting magic attacks as possible.

On Blightburn Sickness:
The save DC is 22; shouldn't be a problem to reliably save against it after contracting it, whether that's for me, or my mount.

With proper preparation, it's likely we (mount and I), would avoid contracting it.

Assuming I'm lvl 15:

Fort: +9, +3 Con minimum (+6 while raging, and an additional +4 if I take Fierce Fortitude Rage power.). Already that's +19 before opening the box that holds the substance. If I took a shot of Antiplague, I'd get an additional +5 for one hour, in case enemies try to reduce my saves.

For my mount:
Fort: +8, +4 Con, manditory to feed it Antiplague for +5. I'd consider Ferocious Mount to give my mount +3 from the con increase. It has +20 now.

If we somehow contracted the disease, Antiplague would instead grant us rerolls, and securing someone with the Heal Skill to help me, with help further with a +4 circumstance bonus. End result of trying to recover;

Me: 16 vs 22 (with a best of two rolls) (Since I can't rage out of it)
Mount: 16 vs 22 (with a best of two rerolls). (Still can't rage)

I would be willing to consider the lower odds of getting the disease, and dying from it, in order to secure a chance to avoid the 100% death chance of getting my mount Mazed in round 1.

If you have an alternative to non-magically resist teleportation however, I'll hear it.


I forgot to mention carrying it; I'd have it strapped to my mount, with it's 600+ light load limit, and my build involves having a Lance and Cestus, so I'd always have a free hand to shift the lid open.


Issac Daneil wrote:
Assuming I'm lvl 15:

Right, so there's my problem. If you're using Blightburn to defend against Maze, this works. If you're using it to stop Teleport you're 6 levels too late. Dimension Door 8. And that's only assuming you're fighting equal level casters, if they're ever higher level then you'll hit Maze before this point. If you're just using Blightburn as a defense against high level casters fine, but then you still don't have a way to deal with teleportation at lower levels. You also still don't have a way to deal with them withdrawing and casting a quickened escape spell (your mount can't use No Escape).

Also, no amount of raising your Fort save is going to matter. You have to make a Fort save every round of exposure. If you use it for two minutes eventually you roll a 1 (which automatically fails) and contract the disease. You're also going to take the damage at least once because it needs two saves to cure. Ditto your mount. I'm using lazy math here but the point is that you're going to get Blightburn Sickness, and pretty quickly. And if your mount manages to take damage from it twice, there's good odds it'll be comatose (2d6 Cha damage versus 8 Cha). Oh, and unless you spend several days laid up in bed, you need some way to cure ability damage for both you and the mount. Again, you're taking the damage at least once (two saves to cure) so you need a way to heal it. The easiest is magic, but again, you'll have to rely on a cleric to heal you up every time you irradiate yourself. Oh, and if you try to use it to protect against scry and fry you're guaranteed to get the disease.

And for carrying it around it's not about the weight (well, it's partly about the weight) but it's mostly about the bulk. It's a 2 foot cube. It's basically a shorter washing machine. Saying "I just strap it to my mount" doesn't cut it. Could you tie a washing machine to the side of a horse without any downsides? Because that's what you'd be doing.

Also, while this doesn't matter for mechanical reasons, I'm pretty sure you'd be committing a war crime every time you used your box of toxic radiation. If you're fighting casty in the air you're fine, if you charge them on the ground you're forcing everyone within 60 feet to make a save v horrific death.


Issac Daneil wrote:

I've also been looking for options to reliably nauseate the enemy mage, as it shuts down the ability to cast entirely.

Nauseated:
Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.

So far I've swapped out Blind-Fight tree (Since my superstitious Barb gets Blight-sight eventually), for the Dirty trick Chain, and going to get the Savage Dirty Trick rage power.

If I was a caster, and I was blinded, I would just pop smoke(leave the scene). I don't know when that trick comes online for you so you may get mileage out of it before they can run away.


Issac Daneil wrote:

I admit, I'm not building this character with allies in mind; hence my fixation on being as self sufficient in resisting magic attacks as possible.

On Blightburn Sickness:
The save DC is 22; shouldn't be a problem to reliably save against it after contracting it, whether that's for me, or my mount.

With proper preparation, it's likely we (mount and I), would avoid contracting it.

Assuming I'm lvl 15:

Fort: +9, +3 Con minimum (+6 while raging, and an additional +4 if I take Fierce Fortitude Rage power.). Already that's +19 before opening the box that holds the substance. If I took a shot of Antiplague, I'd get an additional +5 for one hour, in case enemies try to reduce my saves.

For my mount:
Fort: +8, +4 Con, manditory to feed it Antiplague for +5. I'd consider Ferocious Mount to give my mount +3 from the con increase. It has +20 now.

If we somehow contracted the disease, Antiplague would instead grant us rerolls, and securing someone with the Heal Skill to help me, with help further with a +4 circumstance bonus. End result of trying to recover;

Me: 16 vs 22 (with a best of two rolls) (Since I can't rage out of it)
Mount: 16 vs 22 (with a best of two rerolls). (Still can't rage)

I would be willing to consider the lower odds of getting the disease, and dying from it, in order to secure a chance to avoid the 100% death chance of getting my mount Mazed in round 1.

If you have an alternative to non-magically resist teleportation however, I'll hear it.

Even poor BAB caster can get a decent fort save, but not all of them should have a good one unless the GM is metagaming. The 3/4 casters however will likely reliably make the save.

I think we also need to ask how hard does your GM go in games, and how good he is at optimizing because this is the real factor in how successful you will be.


Blightburn paste will help them to not escape as easily. I just read up on it since it was mentioned. IIRC if you survive the caster's alpha attack in round one, then you will likely experience it again in round 2, and maybe even 3. After that he will likely switch tactics. If you are alive then long the you have likely determined your chances of getting to and hurting him. If you can hurt him assuming he is not dead then you may live, but if he has not been touched, then he likely has several other ways to make you sad, and you will have to decide to continue or retreat.

In any event let us know how it turns out. :)


How to kill a Wizard without using magic:
Be a hot chick(*) with a sharp knife.
Gets 'em every time.

(*)Or hot dude, depending on the wizard.


I was going to use Nauseated, not blinded with dirty trick. With blinded, I'd assume he'd just pyro my general direction with Time Stop + Delayed blast fireballs.

Nauseated however doesn't allow you to cast spells or concentrate on them. That was the edge I'm looking for.

As for actually do this, It's still a hypothetical exercise, for now.


This thread has gone on to the point that maybe we should start proposing builds, and spell load outs. It would really help me to see how a caster would prepare for his day at highest levels, and see where it goes.

Feel free to give the caster items equal to Heroic NPC wealthy at lvl 20, or PC wealth at lvl 20. I'd like to see God Wizard, God Cleric, God Druid, etc at their best.


The wizard pushes his caster level to about 25 brings in a CR23+ outsider, maybe more than one and orders it to kill you. Due to spamming saves you will likely die, and that is before the wizard/sorcerer enters the fray. <---However most GMs' want you to win so they don't take things that far.

A cleric can probably do the same thing with the right build. I think, but am not sure a generic cleric should be able to bring in a few CR 20 monsters, and also make you have a bad day. Those prayer bead assumign I remember the name correctly give high caster levels. There is also the candle of invocation, which is what allows him to pull that wizard trick above assuming he does not have Gate as a domain power.

Druids can use vital strike to get over 60 dice to roll in one hit, and pull entire buildings down on top of you. Look up the ooze(forgot the specific ooze) druid, and the thread asking for the lifting capacity limit record.

Witches do not have the defenses of a wizard normally, but they can debuff you pretty well, and then end you with spells or supernatual abilities.

Once again most GM's want you to win so instakilling your character or anything close to it not normally a concern.

You might see some pre-built characters, but making level 20 characters is time consuming. I do think I have a 20 level wizard lying around, but there seems to be some dispute over the idea of casting several gate spells while time stop is in affect. That is what he was primarily built around for a PbP tournament. The things I could call would have beaten every character in the tournament. However new books are out now so my wizard may not be some comfy, and might actually have to participate, and be updated.


it all depends on items and initiative.
my level 15 can kill in 1 round ANY caster.
he is a lore warden, dip 2 into maneuver master monk.
he took eltritch heritage > arcane > improve familiar (azata) that carry 4 scrolls on her body.
2 are buffs used in regular fights on the fighter.
1 is D-door to get away
and 1 is....anti magic field.

the fighter's initiative is 4 (dex) + 2 (trait) + 4 (imp initiative) = +10. so, he MIGHT win the wizard .
azata cast anti magic field and fly into the wizard.
fighter go in and grapple .
game is over.


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666bender wrote:

it all depends on items and initiative.

my level 15 can kill in 1 round ANY caster.

It's cute that you think this, I mean it isn't true but it is cute.

AMF does nothing to casters as soon as level 9 spells come online. You also assume that you are somehow able to get close or that the caster doesnt have a range of called or created allies available to assist which seems unlikely at high levels.

Also, +10 isnt close to the initiative of even non divination wizards. Charisma casters and divination wizards will blow you out of the water. Also your familiar rolls it's own initiative.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
andreww wrote:
666bender wrote:

Also, +10 isnt close to the initiative of even non divination wizards. Charisma casters and divination wizards will blow you out of the water.

Just to emphasize how true this is

20 dex: +5
dueling cestus: +4
luck stone: +1
Ioun stone that gives morale bonus to ability checks: +1
courageous enhancement on +1 cestus: +1 to morale bonus
initiative boosting Ioun stone: +1
(FYI Initiative is a dex check)
total:+13
This stuff is reasonable to have by level 15. No feats, traits or class features used

Throw in:
improved initiative: +4
Initiative boosting familiar:+4
Reactionary: +2
Fate's favored: +1 to the luck bonus

Total is now 24.

We haven't even gotten to the really good stuff like Noble Scion(Scion of War) plus Circlet of persuasion, which would boost initiative by about 5 while letting the caster neglect or outright dump Dexterity. At this stage the caster is probably guaranteed to win initiative on a natural 1.

Also, I hope your fighter never runs into a caster using the wizard hat trick - shrink item on a 10 foot wide thick metal cone and wear it as a hat so all AMF does is give the caster total cover. If this is an arcane caster and they ever become able to use immediate action spells, Emergency Force Sphere shuts you down hard - it is as Force Wall, but... and force wall isn't affected by AMF. It even blocks spells from going through it, so the caster can teleport out unaffected by the AMF.


Whoa, wait, if you're going Savage Dirty Trick why the @#$% are you using Nauseated? You can get Dazed, the thing almost nothing is immune to and prevents you from taking any actions whatsoever.

As for providing builds, are you kidding me? Nobody has the time to make multiple 20th level wizards just for testing purposes. You can look at the two NPCs on d20pfsrd, there's a few builds floating around in comparison threads, but making builds just for someone else to pick apart... doesn't sound like a lot of fun. I suggest you doing it (making a build) and people can point out any glaring weaknesses in defenses or offense. Because a cleric literally gets access to their entire list, and a wizard only needs to pay for a scroll (blessed book is awesome) to get access to any spell. So you will possibly face every spell.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The wizard hat trick doesn't work in reality, anyways. The AM shell hits it, and the hat falls off the back of the wizard's head. Or take a step back, and suddenly the hat is constricting around the wizard's head as it returns to alternate form with him in the middle of it.

Other things as norm, however.

==Aelryinth


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Whoa, wait, if you're going Savage Dirty Trick why the @#$% are you using Nauseated? You can get Dazed, the thing almost nothing is immune to and prevents you from taking any actions whatsoever.

As for providing builds, are you kidding me? Nobody has the time to make multiple 20th level wizards just for testing purposes. You can look at the two NPCs on d20pfsrd, there's a few builds floating around in comparison threads, but making builds just for someone else to pick apart... doesn't sound like a lot of fun. I suggest you doing it (making a build) and people can point out any glaring weaknesses in defenses or offense. Because a cleric literally gets access to their entire list, and a wizard only needs to pay for a scroll (blessed book is awesome) to get access to any spell. So you will possibly face every spell.

Working on the build now.

I was drawn to Nauseated because of it's line regarding spells specifically. I'm not aware of if there is any special ability where you can cast spells as No action, but in case there was I was preferring Nauseated for it's spell shut down.
However, in the event that there are none, Dazed is a better option, agreed.

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