Are tangle foot bags ever bad?

[Shinma the Lost]

tanglefoot bag:

A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances. When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.

I know they break with a DC 15 strong check but -4 dex and -2 atk plus they have to take their turn to break out seems worth it.

Am I missing something?

[ericthecleric]

Each bag weighs 4 pounds. That will stack up quickly for multiple bags, especially for a Small character.

[Edymnion]

Well, the big thing for me is the cost vs. effectiveness.

At low levels when these are most effective, they're generally too expensive to use. 50gp a shot is pretty expensive at low levels.

At higher levels when you can afford to toss them out like candy, you usually have much better things you can be doing with your action for that round than throwing a single tanglefoot bag.

Personally, I like using tanglefoot arrows. The DCs are lower, but by the time you're going to be able to use them on any kind of regular basis everything is going to be able to make the save against the bag anyway, and you can use them as part of a full attack. Which actually becomes quite useful when you fire a tangleshot arrow first, dropping the target's dex by 4, which lowers their AC by 2, making your iterative hits more likely to land.

Huh, something I haven't thought of before now, but what happens if you use multiple tanglefoot bags/arrows against the same target? Does the save DC go up, or do they have to make multiple checks to break each individual bag/arrow's worth of goo?

[Serum]

Remember that the break DC is only to become unrooted; the target doesn't stop being entangled until the 2d4 rounds are up.

[Edymnion]

Serum wrote:

Remember that the break DC is only to become unrooted; the target doesn't stop being entangled until the 2d4 rounds are up.

Yes, but they can scrape it off by doing slashing damage to it.

[Serum]

Edymnion wrote:

Serum wrote:

Remember that the break DC is only to become unrooted; the target doesn't stop being entangled until the 2d4 rounds are up.

Yes, but they can scrape it off by doing slashing damage to it.

This still only removes the root, not the entangle.

Quote:

A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed.

[Edymnion]

Oh good point. Its pretty much screwed up for the duration of the thing no matter what they do. That does make them stronger items.

[Dafydd]

They are bad when:

Foe is Huge (or bigger)
Foe flies with magic
Foe is underwater

Other then those 3 limitations from the bag itself

Super strong foes
High Touch AC foes
Level 1 where the one shot you spent on it would be better put towards a weapon or armor
High level, then again at this point you are often facing fling foes or huge foes, so the bag is useless there.

The bag's DC are never impossible, even at 1st. However, immobilizing or even entangling a foe can be a big help as the -2 to hit and AC is nasty.

[Imbicatus]

They are a little redundant with Adhesive Spittle. Especially if you use it with spell hex.

[Just a Mort]

What happens if you miss with a tanglefoot bag? Is it like missing with an alchemist fire?

[Ascalaphus]

Just a Mort wrote:

What happens if you miss with a tanglefoot bag? Is it like missing with an alchemist fire?

You just miss, that's all. They only have an effect on a direct hit.

[Mark_Twain007]

I would say they are never bad, they are just not always good. At low levels they are really expensive, and at high levels you probably have better abilities, but in the medium levels they can work great for mobile enemies, or as part of a debuff build.

I use them in the game I currently in. I'm playing a debuff fighter in Second Darkness, and was fortunate enough that many of the enemies we have killed so far have had tanglefoot bags.

[Rub-Eta]

Let me tell you that it's not always good. Even terrible at some points. Like when you're trying to seduce a...
No, but on a serious note: It's really good, unless you're fighting Huge or larger creatures. One of my players prevented a TPK with this.

[Claxon]

You know what, I've been misunderstanding tanglefoot bags for years because I never bothered to properly read them. I thought the save negated all effects, but it only negates the gluing effect. You will always take the -2 to attack and -4 to dex.

That makes these pretty damn good.

[boring7]

Mark_Twain007 wrote:

I would say they are never bad, they are just not always good. At low levels they are really expensive, and at high levels you probably have better abilities, but in the medium levels they can work great for mobile enemies, or as part of a debuff build.

I use them in the game I currently in. I'm playing a debuff fighter in Second Darkness, and was fortunate enough that many of the enemies we have killed so far have had tanglefoot bags.

Yep.

One time I actually paralyzed an enemy with a tanglefoot bag and a ray of clumsiness.

[Matthew Morris]

There's NEVER a bad time to use a tangleshot arrow.

Playing <redacted> and dealing with a lot of finesse builds. I claimed MVP not for the damage I did, but for the damage I prevented. :-)

Edit: I recommend tangleshot arrows (alchemy manual) a pair of tanglefoot bags (CRB) and a tangle burn bag, to ruin someone's day (APG)

[fictionfan]

Might be better to throw a net instead? Those are even reusable.

[Gwen Smith]

The other nice thing about tanglefoot bags is that they force a concentration check from casters and a fly check from flyers.

I have an archer who fires tangleshot arrows from a Distracting bow: nice way to ruin a caster's day.