Can Hydraulic Push / Torrent cause a flyer to fall?

[Wakrob]

Hydraulic Push

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hydraulic-push

Hydraulic Torrent

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hydraulic-torrent

I tried to use these against a Large flying winged creature. Im wondering if either could cause a fall. At the very least it should count as a DC 10 Fly check from being an attack? That would only lose you 10' altitude.

I wonder if either could count as a collision from a object of the same size for a DC 25 Fly check.

Push just says makes a Bullrush so Im assuming I can only target a creature one size larger than myself. And even if it was considered 'an object' that it would be medium.

But Torrent says it can push a creature of ANY size, so I was thinking this maybe could be compared to a collision, for a large creature, equal to or greater than its own size.

Flying skill
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly

Wakrob

[henkslaaf]

Hydraulic torrent explexplicitly allows creatures of any size. Hydraulic push says nothing about size, just that you perform a bull-rush against the target, so it implicitly allows it. Just because hydraulic torrent explicitly says something does not mean it would not be allowed anywhere else.

Think about is, would a halfling have a smaller hydraulic push than a human? That's racist man ;-)

I do not think that imbalanced. The CMD mechanics handle this just fine. Large creatures are quite hard to bull-rush anyway. So they should be fine.

I couldn't find rules about bull-rush and flying and the spells don't say anything about tszthe size of the water spout/tsunami, so... Common sense would say push is smaller than torrent so yeah, torrent could count as a collision, push wouldn't.

But in PFS, expect table variations.

[baradakas]

The reason that Hydraulic Torrent mentions it specifically is because it is providing an exception to the rule that states that you cannot bull rush a creature more than one size category larger than you. This restriction is not mentioned in Hydraulic Push because it is implicit in the fact that it allows you to perform a Bull Rush maneuver, which has its own rules and are not superseded by anything in Hydraulic Push other than the range and what is used to determine the CMB.

Both of these will work for a medium-sized creature to force a large creature to make the Fly check if the Bull rush succeeds. The halflings will have to content themselves with trying to knock flying orcs out of the sky until they are high enough level to cast Hydraulic Torrent.