Shield Champion Brawler?


Advice

Grand Lodge

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'm reading through the Advanced Class Guide Archetypes, and stumbled upon a Shield Champion Brawler. My mind immediately jumped to Captain Golarion- but on a second readthrough, it may not work too well. If I'm reading it correctly, the Shield Champion only gains Weapon Profiency(shields) as they pertain to armor, and not weapons. Which would mean my Captain Golarion couldn't use a shield until level 3- and only then, when he's throwing it. This seems like it's wrong, but..I really want this.

If it doesn't work the way I want it to, how would you advise getting that proficiency?


are you reading the playtest version? I have this

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A shield champion is
proficient with all simple weapons. She is also proficient
with light armor, and with bucklers, light shields, and
heavy shields. This replaces the brawler’s weapon and
armor proficiencies

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:

are you reading the playtest version? I have this

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A shield champion is
proficient with all simple weapons. She is also proficient
with light armor, and with bucklers, light shields, and
heavy shields. This replaces the brawler’s weapon and
armor proficiencies

That's what I have as well. I'm assuming that because the shields are included with the armor, and not the weapons, that it is a different thing.

Am I wrong? I wouldn't mind being wrong.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You COULD read it that way, but since you can also read it the way that lets the shield champion use his eponymous weapon I'd go with the saner one.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You COULD read it that way, but since you can also read it the way that lets the shield champion use his eponymous weapon I'd go with the saner one.

Believe me, I'd like that.. but RAW..


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Raw he is proficient with shields. That means he is proficient with shields as armor and proficient with shields as weapons. Raw does not make this distinction.

Grand Lodge

bop

Grand Lodge

As shields are martial weapons, I'm not sure a shield champion is proficient with them as a weapon (in fact I lean towards them not being proficient, oddly), while they are definitely proficient with them as armor.

The difference in my reading is that weapons in most (if not all entries) first list proficient weapons in one sentence, then armor types in the second. For example, Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

In a home game I would rule them proficient both ways but in PFS, I'm not sure.

Grand Lodge

Also, I didn't say in my previous post that Shield (weapon) and Shield (AC) are separate things even though they can be the same item, proven by how they are masterworked and enchanted, which is part of my belief that the formatting of the proficiency entry matters.

Grand Lodge

Finally, I should add a friend found this FAQ.

Showing that indeed Shield Champions are not proficient in the use of a shield as a weapon.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'm pretty sure the Shield Champion will be errata'd into having martial weapon proficiency with shields as that is the whole concept behind the archetype.

Grand Lodge

I would hope/imagine so, but as it stands...


BartonOliver wrote:
I would hope/imagine so, but as it stands...

As it stands the only thing keeping you from what you know full well is rai is your own supposition about sentence order, which is not raw.

Raw it works
Rai it works

Dont make a character popping into your table useless for the evening

Liberty's Edge

The fun shield stuff doesn't start until level 3 anyway. Until then it's best to just punch stuff.

It will give me time to save up to get an adamantine shield (buying it like a weapon) since vibranium™ is unavailable.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
BartonOliver wrote:
I would hope/imagine so, but as it stands...

As it stands the only thing keeping you from what you know full well is rai is your own supposition about sentence order, which is not raw.

Raw it works
Rai it works

Dont make a character popping into your table useless for the evening

As Barton posted earlier a link to the FAQ that pretty much answers that RAW it doesn't work, you might want to step back from the grar a little...

Grand Lodge

Read the FAQ which is from 2013, and is not my ruling. It does confirm in fact that proficiency in wearing a shield and proficiency in wielding a shield (as a weapon) are two different things. I fully expect that shield champions should/will be proficient with shields as weapons, and in any home campaign would rule that to be true. However, in point of fact at the moment RAI it works and RAW it does not.

Do I want to ruin someone's gaming experience with this? No. Are there ways to build around this problem? Yes, a number of them up to and including taking the non-proficiency penalty. I have had a ruling like this completely gimp a character and I know it sucks, but it is the rule/class/archetype as it stands currently.

Silver Crusade

This should probably move to the rules forum as it's not really a PFS thing.

Edit: dang it *puts Andoran Sentinel costume back on*

Grand Lodge

So it looks like the ruling is:

-Weapon Proficiency (Shield) and Armor Proficiency (Shield) are explicit things.

-A Shield Champion Brawler without taking Weapon Proficiency (Shield) some other way cannot use his Shield as a weapon (or can with the penalty) until level 3.

-Even then, it's not very good.

./sigh. My dreams of Captain Golarion may indeed be fruitless.

It seems so obvious to me that an archetype designed around a weapon would be proficient in that weapon... I really hope this gets errata'd soon.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

As written, the Shield Champion has loads of issues.

RAI, the archetype was written by Jim Groves and he intended for the shield champion to also be proficient with shields as weapons.

However, RAW thanks to the way it's currently written and per the FAQ, shield champions aren't proficient with shields as weapons need workarounds in order to be. This is only an issue with Pathfinder Society games and crazy RAW-GM in home games.

Current ways around it:
Martial Weapon Proficiency (heavy shield) or (light shield). IMO this bites.
Worship Gorum and get the Shield-Trained trait. Hurts if you want the LG alignment for PFS. Otherwise, easiest. The trait also prevents you from benefiting from two-handing a heavy shield for 1.5 Str bonus and/or +3 dmg:-1 att Power Attack ratios as it forces you to treat a heavy shield as a light weapon.
Level dip in something that grants full martial weapon proficiency. I vote Emissary Cavalier. Can move in regular speed in medium armor.

HOWEVER, while the proficiency is an easy fix. The archetype suffers extra issues once you actually start playing it.

You get Shield Master as a bonus feat at 11, but you need to provide the pre-reqs first. You want Shield Slam? Well brawler's flurry provides TWF, BUT only while flurryng. So you can't use Shield Slam or Shield Master on charges, AoO's, standard action attacks; only while flurrying in melee or when flurry-throwing it.

When using the shield as a thrown weapon, it can be used in a flurry and it returns at end of your turn. It has wording that allows the thrown shield to attack new targets, but I'm not sure if it allows you to attack just one or two targets multiple times in a round with the thrown shield.

I posted up a bit of a rant/query about the action economy required to throw the shield and equipping it again with some hypothetical examples.

As of now, using a heavy shield is terrible for throwing purposes. Move action to unstrap the shield from arm. Standard action throw. It comes back at end of your turn. EVERY else's turn happens while you don't benefit from Shield AC because you didn't have the action to strap it back on.
IMO you'd need a light throwing quickdraw shield in order to make most of the shield champion's abilities. Throwing shield ability to unstrap shield as free action, quickdraw shield ability in order to strap the shield on as a free action. However the shield comes back and the END of your turn, so then your turn is over once you get your shield back and you wouldn't even be able to benefit from the shield AC again because you didn't have the opportunity to strap it back on.

Grand Lodge

Funny thing is, basic Brawler IS proficient with shields as a weapons, and can even use them as part of Brawler's Flurry.

This is because shields as weapons are part of close fighter weapon group which Brawler is proficient with by default.

Unfortunately, Shield Champion loses proficiency with close fighter weapon group.

The Exchange

I generally just ignore that particular bit of lunacy. Even in pfs games, it's just nonsense and can't be how it was intended. Another example of how little paizo cared about this product and how little interest they have in addressing it.

I would advise ignoring the proficiency issues even in pfs games. If the gm argues just walk away from the table and find a better gm.

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