Fighting Defensively with Ray Spells


Rules Questions

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Abraham spalding wrote:

Two separate actions then, agreed, with two different attacks of opportunity.

Read the linked FAQ. It disagrees with your interpretation.

Quote:


As two separate actions though the provoking from the ranged attack does not ruin the spell since you can't make the ranged attack unless the spell is cast.

If the spell isn't cast then you couldn't have provoked by making a ranged attack.

You didn't take damage while casting the spell, you took damage from making a ranged attack, after the spell is done, since you wouldn't be making the attack if the spell had failed.

By RAW, the ranged attack is part of the casting of the spell. Basically, you are aiming the spell while you are casting it, and it is the distraction causes by aiming the spell that provokes, thus the damage from making a ranged attack can disrupt the spell. The only way this doesn't happen is if the ranged attack is a separate free action that happens after the spell is cast.

Sovereign Court

Jeff Merola wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Depends on what those certain circumstances are, because frankly, I can't think of any. If you're thinking of an Arcane Archer, it's the act of archery which provokes, not the fireball.

From the spell itself:

Quote:
If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

I would agree that flicking a bead would provoke an AoO. :P

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Charender wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Two separate actions then, agreed, with two different attacks of opportunity.

Read the linked FAQ. It disagrees with your interpretation.

Quote:


As two separate actions though the provoking from the ranged attack does not ruin the spell since you can't make the ranged attack unless the spell is cast.

If the spell isn't cast then you couldn't have provoked by making a ranged attack.

You didn't take damage while casting the spell, you took damage from making a ranged attack, after the spell is done, since you wouldn't be making the attack if the spell had failed.

By RAW, the ranged attack is part of the casting of the spell. Basically, you are aiming the spell while you are casting it, and it is the distraction causes by aiming the spell that provokes, thus the damage from making a ranged attack can disrupt the spell. The only way this doesn't happen is if the ranged attack is a separate free action that happens after the spell is cast.

Another way of thinking this is that you are aiming, and he's hitting the hand you are aiming with to spoil the shot, not just generally interfere with the spellcasting.

==Aelryinth


Charender wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Two separate actions then, agreed, with two different attacks of opportunity.

Read the linked FAQ. It disagrees with your interpretation.

Either it's two separate actions and two different provocations or it is not.

The FAQ states it is two different actions -- casting the spell (provokes) making a ranged attack (provokes).


Aelryinth wrote:
Charender wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Two separate actions then, agreed, with two different attacks of opportunity.

Read the linked FAQ. It disagrees with your interpretation.

Quote:


As two separate actions though the provoking from the ranged attack does not ruin the spell since you can't make the ranged attack unless the spell is cast.

If the spell isn't cast then you couldn't have provoked by making a ranged attack.

You didn't take damage while casting the spell, you took damage from making a ranged attack, after the spell is done, since you wouldn't be making the attack if the spell had failed.

By RAW, the ranged attack is part of the casting of the spell. Basically, you are aiming the spell while you are casting it, and it is the distraction causes by aiming the spell that provokes, thus the damage from making a ranged attack can disrupt the spell. The only way this doesn't happen is if the ranged attack is a separate free action that happens after the spell is cast.

Another way of thinking this is that you are aiming, and he's hitting the hand you are aiming with to spoil the shot, not just generally interfere with the spellcasting.

==Aelryinth

That is actually the way I have always played it, but looking at the RAW, it is pretty clear that the ranged attack is part of the spellcasting action. That combined with the concentration check rules on "Damage taken while casting the spell" lead me to conclude that getting hit during the ranged attack can disrupt the spell. That may not be RAI, but it certainly is RAW.

Abraham spalding wrote:
Charender wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Two separate actions then, agreed, with two different attacks of opportunity.

Read the linked FAQ. It disagrees with your interpretation.

Either it's two separate actions and two different provocations or it is not.

The FAQ states it is two different actions -- casting the spell (provokes) making a ranged attack (provokes).

Ranged Touch Spells in Combat wrote:

Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn (see FAQ below for more information.)

The RAW on ranged touch spells makes it very clear that the ranged attack is part of the spellcasting action.

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity wrote:


If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
FAQ text wrote:


Yes, you provoke two attacks of opportunity, one for casting the spell and one for making a ranged attack, since these are two separate events. As a note, since all of the rays are fired simultaneously (in the case of scorching ray), you would only provoke one attack of opportunity for making the ranged attack, even if you fired more than one ray.

The key word for AoOs is opportunity or event. The RAW and FAQ use the language of "events that provoke" as opposed to your language of "actions that provoke". You have 2 different opportunities or events that provoke in the same spellcasting action.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Oh, I'm not saying its not part of the casting action. I'm saying that spoiling your aim is just as useful, and yet different, then spoiling the spell itself. It is indeed two opportunities, and either one working is going to mess up the spell.

==Aelryinth


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Casting the spell: Event 1.

Attacking with the spell: Event 2.

Nothing states that attacking with the spell is part of casting the spell, only that the attack is part of the spell.

Those two things are not equivalent.

For example making touch attacks with a touch spell is part of the spell. That doesn't mean that while holding those attacks your spell can be disrupted (As an example if someone readies an attack for "If he tries to make a touch attack against me") because the spell is already cast (and doesn't have a duration of concentration).

Those attacks are still part of the spell.

Attacking in later rounds with fiery shuriken is part of the spell. This does not mean you disrupt the spell by attacking when those attacks are made. The spell is already cast.

Part of the spell =/= part of casting the spell.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Abraham, if you get hit while holding the charge on a spell, you have to make a concentration check or lose it.

You're arguing semantics. Anytime before the spell is actually released, you are vulnerable and technically in the middle of spellcasting, because you haven't let the spell go. This includes attacking and ranged attacking with it.

The difference is you don't provoke with a touch spell melee attack, and you do with a ranged attack (that pointing figure just attracts swats, I guess.).

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Abraham, if you get hit while holding the charge on a spell, you have to make a concentration check or lose it.

You are going to have to provide a citation for that -- I have never seen anything in the rules that supports that position.

Quote:


You're arguing semantics. Anytime before the spell is actually released, you are vulnerable and technically in the middle of spellcasting, because you haven't let the spell go. This includes attacking and ranged attacking with it.

That's not correct. The only spell that can be disrupted by attacks after the casting time is complete is concentration spells:

Quote:

Concentration

The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.

You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.

Nothing about touch spells suggests in any way they are concentration spells -- they don't reference concentration spells, they don't state that holding the charge is like concentration literally nothing gives that impression let alone states it.

Quote:
The difference is you don't provoke with a touch spell melee attack, and you do with a ranged attack (that pointing figure just attracts swats, I guess.).

Included for the sake of completeness.


Aelryinth, I also haven't seen anything like what you are saying. Could you provide citation?

Touch spells can be held regardless of taking damage, there is no concentration check.

The AoO for a ranged attack is clearly separate from the AoO for spellcasting. You are taking a small bit of wording that is intended to allow you to shoot a ray as part of casting the spell and apply it to keeping the spell. That check, the concentration check, has already been made, this is not another "gotcha" check.

The spell is already cast, now you are shooting, it is a different event even if it uses the same action economy. If they wanted to disrupt the spell they should have done it when you were casting it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I can't find anything about losing the charge if you get hit while holding it, as it doesn't require concentration. It seems you only lose the held spell if you cast again or touch anything.

ergo, I shall concede the point until cited the other way.

==Aelryinth


Abraham spalding wrote:

Casting the spell: Event 1.

Attacking with the spell: Event 2.

Nothing states that attacking with the spell is part of casting the spell, only that the attack is part of the spell.

Those two things are not equivalent.

For example making touch attacks with a touch spell is part of the spell. That doesn't mean that while holding those attacks your spell can be disrupted (As an example if someone readies an attack for "If he tries to make a touch attack against me") because the spell is already cast (and doesn't have a duration of concentration).

Those attacks are still part of the spell.

Attacking in later rounds with fiery shuriken is part of the spell. This does not mean you disrupt the spell by attacking when those attacks are made. The spell is already cast.

Part of the spell =/= part of casting the spell.

Ranged Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn (see FAQ below for more information.)

The RAW clearly states that the ranged attack is part of the spellcasting. Unless you have some other RAW that clearly says that the ranged attack happens after the spell is cast, and that taking damage from the ranged attack provoking does not disrupt the spell, then...

1. The ranged attack is part of the spellcasting.
2. Damage taken during spellcasting can disrupt the spell.
3. Ergo, the AoO from the ranged attack can disrupt the spell.

PS: Normal touch attack don't have this problem as the RAW clearly states that the attack is a separate free action AFTER the spellcasting.


My 2 cents

I find the term "spell attack" at several places in the rules which I find applicable to this question.

IMHO spell attacking defensively is fine.

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