I don't like Pathfinder, because I'm the Bad Guy


Pathfinder Society

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Dark Archive

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This thread may contain minor spoilers. I am going to be generally vague about my spoilers and not mention any specific scenarios, but others might.

When I first started playing PFS, the guy who introduced me to the game described the Pathfinders as "A Guild of Indiana Joneses". That sounds pretty cool! I like Indiana Jones! Punching Nazis in the face, finding ancient treasures and rescuing villages from evil cults? Sign me up! But after a year and a half of Pathfinering, I feel like if Indiana Jones was in Golarion, we would be the nameless henchmen that he fights. I think the Pathfinder Society are the bad guys of this story.

This isn't "well, it is a matter of perspective" or "The Pathfinders are morally ambiguous". This isn't even me being/playing a Lawful Stupid person. I have a variety of characters that have seen, partaken in or been told about straight up villainous activities. In my PFS career, I have been an accomplice to or at least been told about:

-Kidnapping nobility (on several occasions)
-Selling children into slavery (The players were pretending to be Aspis Consortium agents for the scenario, but it does not change what they did. I was not a part of this scenario, so who knows, maybe they were 'evil' children...)
-Protecting a necromancer
-Broke the Laws of Man...
-...then killed the guards sent to arrest us.
-Breaking and Entering into a dead man's home...
-...and then stealing the guys stuff
-Desecrated tombs (Not loot on an archeological dig, but desecrated)
-Extortion (on several occasions)
-Assassination
-Cut out a guys freaking tongue

I feel like if I go through my chronicle sheets, I could find a dozen more horrible, terrible things that we have done that I am opposed to.

"But Koujow, you could have chosen to not do those things or stopped the players who did!" You would think, if I wasn't being blocked by the players, if not the GM. Take the 'Protecting the Necromancer' scenario above. According to the GM, this Necromancer bought slaves, murdered them, then reanimates them for the purpose of selling undead slaves. I was playing my Paladin at the time, but I find that horrifying as anyone not a sociopath should. So even though the Necromancer had something the Pathfinder Society wanted, I suggested to the party that we terminate his business. At the very least turn the guy in. The players were generally up for it, until the GM said "Oh, well he has to survive the scenario to fulfill the secondary condition. You need to make sure these other guys don't kill him."

Afterwards, I told the GM that I needed to spend my prestige on an atonement spell because I had obviously done something that opposes both my characters and my beliefs and the GM brushed it off and told me not to worry about it.

I wanted to play PFS because I wanted to be a hero. I don't necessarily mean I wanted to be Superman and the bad guy is a mustache twirling psychopath. But for every village I saved from bandits in Tian Xia, I have committed a dozen other crimes. Funnily enough, when I wrote that last sentence, I had to stop and think for several minutes about good things that I actually have done. And the only reason we helped the peasants in Tian Xia was, surprise! They had a magic artifact that we needed. Not because it was right or because it is something a group of heroic people should do. Because it benefited the Pathfinders. (And one player in the group still suggested we just force the peasants to do it and leave).

I joked with some friends that when I go to Ohayocon and play Shadowrun Missions, a game about being shady criminals who do questionable things for money, I feel like more a hero than I do when I play Pathfinder. In Shadowrun, I have rescued people from murderous gangs, gave children medicine and took a bullet for a man who was legitimately trying to help people. And the worst thing I have done in my (admittedly limited) Shadowrun career? I took down the internet. In an empty waste land. For 10 minutes. But in six Shadowrun scenarios, I have done more good than I have in 50+ Pathfinder scenarios.

Silver Crusade 1/5

Maybe that has to do with the scenarios I've played so far, but I've rarely felt I was a bad guy.
Yes, there were some illegal things I had to do (Breaking into a secret library comes to mind) but they were always for the greater cause. Also I've never played with a group with the goal to kill their opposition - non-lethal damage is always an option. When dealing with tombs the group were respectful and only did what was necessary, and so on.
Occasionaly there was a moral dilemma and the group had to find a solution, but rarely were they doing something evil.

Although I have to admit - the Society IS more Neutral than Good and without a doubt uses more shadowy ways sometimes than we'd care to know...

Dark Archive

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Within the Grand Lodge, copies of the Pathfinder Chronicles are duplicated by a group of 66 criminals that the Pathfinders have acquired from Absalom's criminal justice system. They've had their tongues cut out and were then put under geas to force them to work continuously copying documents.

Yeah, I've never been particularly inclined to put the words "good" and "Pathfinder Society" together. They are neutral at best, and that's only because in relative terms, they aren't quite as bad as the obviously evil Aspis Consortium.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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First off the society is listed as a true neutral organization. They are not heroes, they are not the authority, they are not vigilantes. Their interest is solely in acquiring antiquities. They prefer to do this while abiding local laws and upholding common moral decency. If that route fails though, they often resort to underhanded dealings. Many old faction missions did ask you to do something evil, but now those are gone you don't see things like cut out his tongue anymore. You are frequently asked to look the other way or to work with evil people still.

Pathfinder is an interesting campaign in that they chose not to go the normal fantasy route of heroic players versus dastardly villains. Still, all that said, I have never felt forced to comprise the morals of any of the good aligned characters I play. Being evil, falling to the dark side, means taking the easy expedient route. Being good is harder, is riskier, it means being the one to stand up and say no, this is wrong. It would be nice if there was some game benefit for it, but as a good character working for an unscrupulous company sometimes doing the right thing will mean angering your superiors. So you are left with a choice. Compromise your morals to please the man, or do whats right and lose some prestige. If you're clever, you can usually find a way to fulfill your mission without stooping to evil. Again, walking the path of good is a difficult road, the easy way out will always be there to tempt you.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

I've played or run nearly every PFS scenario and don't recognize several of the evil acts you were supposed to do. Its at least possible that the group wasn't completely running as written.

Some of the other things seem more like the old faction missions. Lots of those were pretty nasty but they're a thing of the past.

And the Society has definitely become closer to good aligned in recent seasons.

But your basic point is correct. The Society is NOT good aligned and it DOES have quite a few evil members (PCs can't be evil but NPCs definitely can).

That said, all my characters who care have done significantly more good than evil. It usually takes only one character standing up for what is right to significantly increase the good done and reduce the harm done (usually, NOT always). I've played a paladin through level 12 and he never had to compromise his morals enough to require an atonement. Part of that was luck, part was my not going on some scenarios, but most of it was him managing to not do egregiously evil acts. He DID refuse to do some faction missions.

4/5

I like Pathfinder Society, because I like being free to not be the good guy. Of course, some of my characters are fiercely good-aligned (and to be honest, I have never seen a single scenario where the group was required to perform evil acts to fulfill it. Criminal acts? Sure. Evil acts? Never). It's wonderful to be able to play whatever non-evil alignment you prefer to be, and in a good-aligned Society, we wouldn't be given that freedom.

The Exchange 3/5

Explore, Report and Cooperate

He who reports history creates history.

I would be very interested to see how the Society has spun some of my characters' exploits into positives.

3/5

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You're right, Koujow. I recall, actually, very early on, having the same visions of Indiana Jones. Funnily enough, one of Paizo's freelancers, who was active all the way back in 2008, told me that the PFS are more like Dr. Belloq than Indiana Jones.

And it's true. It got a bit old after awhile, largely because I found it pretty silly to see, over and over, absolutely zero negative repercussions for the Society's shady ways. In Golarion, just as in the real world, crime does pay when you or your bosses have enough money and influence to make the consequences disappear.

Anyways, I reacted by having my character take her growing resentment of the PFS and act on it. It was pretty fun, but I agree with the observation that the other players were perfectly happy to follow the criminal railroad (my Eyes of the Ten group was a notable exception. Wow, that was great). It's amazing to see what lengths players will go to justify that Prestige Point.

It's kinda weird (and misleading) how Paladins are OK and Evil characters aren't, isn't it?

-Matt

4/5

I have limited xp, maybe 2 dozen Szenarios, but there where quite a bit good doing missions.

Beeing a good guy:

Spoiler:
Citadel of Flame - Stopping a Evil Cult
Merchants Wake - Stopping baddies/Undeads disrupting a Furneral
Slave Pits of Absalom - Resucing some Slaves
Delirums Tangle - Saving Nuar Spiritskin and check a Maze(so Indy also)
Among the Living/Among the Dead - Death Cultists again :)
The Wardstone Patrol

Beeing an explorer:

Spoiler:
The Confirmation
Emerald Spire
The Prince of Augustana - Reveal mystery of a old guy telling hes a Prince
Trial by Machine
Echoes of the Overwatched
Halls of the Flesh Eaters
Segang Expedition

Beeing shady:

Spoiler:
Part of First steps
Midnight Mauler

So maybe i miss to see the problem.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

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@KouJow I question which of those actions you list are actually required by the scenario and which are players doing evil things and GMs letting them despite the scenario not requiring it.

Dark Archive

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Wait till you get to the retirement arc. The Pathfinder Society as an In game organization is greedy, nosy, and driven to get what it wants by any means necessary. I've always said, the Aspis Consortium may be just as shady, but at least they are honest about it.

Who knows what happens to the artifacts after they are catalogued.

A really neat arc for a future season could be taking out some of the outright corruption at the head of the society and replacing it with player driven stuff. It could use which person was supported the most etc. on chronicle reporting. Leave faction people in place, just haul out the decemvirate and unmask them.

4/5

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Part of it might be a different interpretation of Indiana Jones.

Even if you ignore the straight-up fortune hunter he was in Temple of Doom, he is not lawful by any sense of the word, and his goodness largely depends on whether you're the guy protecting the artifact he's after. His motivation is the pursuit and preservation of history, not the greater good. Remember, when he had to choose between defeating the Nazis and saving his girlfriend or destroying an artifact, he chose the artifact or both the greater good and his own personal good. His mantra is "It belongs in a museum", not "We should use that power to save the world" or "That's too dangerous to fall into the wrong hands." Also, we never get to see who owns the museum Indy works for or what their motivations are.

I use that phrase to describe the society, with the following description: "You have your normal, daily life, and every now and then your boss knocks on your door and says, "We want you to go get an artifact." (I also describe the Dark Archive as the "top men" that are researching the arc.) In that context, it's a valid comparison, and there aren't many other pop culture "part-time adventurers" to use as a grounding point.

With all that said, I do find it refreshing that there are PFS players who want to play the good guys. More often, I hear players complaining that they can't be evil in PFS.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:

Within the Grand Lodge, copies of the Pathfinder Chronicles are duplicated by a group of 66 criminals that the Pathfinders have acquired from Absalom's criminal justice system. They've had their tongues cut out and were then put under geas to force them to work continuously copying documents.

Yeah, I've never been particularly inclined to put the words "good" and "Pathfinder Society" together. They are neutral at best, and that's only because in relative terms, they aren't quite as bad as the obviously evil Aspis Consortium.

Gosh.

You'd think on one of these missions, someone would have found a printing press...

And I'm convinced that the Aspis Consortium is as evil as it is for the sole purpose of making the Society look better.

Sovereign Court 2/5 *

I suspect a lot of it has to do with the faction you are as well. If I recall correctly, the Chelaxian mission in Slave Pits of Absalom is to "free" the slaves so they can be made into slaves for Cheliax.

Silver Crusade

Mattastrophic wrote:

You're right, Koujow. I recall, actually, very early on, having the same visions of Indiana Jones. Funnily enough, one of Paizo's freelancers, who was active all the way back in 2008, told me that the PFS are more like Dr. Belloq than Indiana Jones.

And it's true. It got a bit old after awhile, largely because I found it pretty silly to see, over and over, absolutely zero negative repercussions for the Society's shady ways. In Golarion, just as in the real world, crime does pay when you or your bosses have enough money and influence to make the consequences disappear.

Anyways, I reacted by having my character take her growing resentment of the PFS and act on it. It was pretty fun, but I agree with the observation that the other players were perfectly happy to follow the criminal railroad (my Eyes of the Ten group was a notable exception. Wow, that was great). It's amazing to see what lengths players will go to justify that Prestige Point.

It's kinda weird (and misleading) how Paladins are OK and Evil characters aren't, isn't it?

-Matt

When I run Shattered Star I'm implicitly portraying the PFS as the "It belongs in a museum!" side* with the Aspis Consortium as "So do you!"

Members will even get a stipend that depends on their preservation of historical artifacts and sites along with actual details about other cultures that can't be gained by murderhobos.

Also ignoring much of Seekers of Secrets, as that's been stated to be OOC for what the PFS were intended to be.

*coupled with "we could save the world with this power" by way of their primary sponsors.

2/5

Gnasher wrote:
Who knows what happens to the artifacts after they are catalogued.

Zarta Dralneen? ;)

Silver Crusade

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Exguardi wrote:
Gnasher wrote:
Who knows what happens to the artifacts after they are catalogued.
Zarta Dralneen? ;)

SCP Foundation.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Art imitates life, and sometimes doing the right thing will be harder or come with a cost.

Doing it anyway helps to define a character and help them stand out from among the crowd. If this were the Palidin society then EVERYONE would be a law abiding goody two shoes, so law abiding goody two shoes would cease to be a personality trait of a character.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:

Within the Grand Lodge, copies of the Pathfinder Chronicles are duplicated by a group of 66 criminals that the Pathfinders have acquired from Absalom's criminal justice system. They've had their tongues cut out and were then put under geas to force them to work continuously copying documents.

Yeah, I've never been particularly inclined to put the words "good" and "Pathfinder Society" together. They are neutral at best, and that's only because in relative terms, they aren't quite as bad as the obviously evil Aspis Consortium.

The Society employs this guy?

Yeah, that's pretty evil.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

Mattastrophic wrote:

You're right, Koujow. I recall, actually, very early on, having the same visions of Indiana Jones. Funnily enough, one of Paizo's freelancers, who was active all the way back in 2008, told me that the PFS are more like Dr. Belloq than Indiana Jones.

And it's true. It got a bit old after awhile, largely because I found it pretty silly to see, over and over, absolutely zero negative repercussions for the Society's shady ways. In Golarion, just as in the real world, crime does pay when you or your bosses have enough money and influence to make the consequences disappear.

Anyways, I reacted by having my character take her growing resentment of the PFS and act on it. It was pretty fun, but I agree with the observation that the other players were perfectly happy to follow the criminal railroad (my Eyes of the Ten group was a notable exception. Wow, that was great). It's amazing to see what lengths players will go to justify that Prestige Point.

It's kinda weird (and misleading) how Paladins are OK and Evil characters aren't, isn't it?

-Matt

I'd kind of like to see something akin to the Bandit Kingdoms' Wanted Score from Living Greyhawk for criminal/untowards behavior that makes it harder and harder to operate openly in parts of the world. But this would be tough to track/mean more paperwork, so I doubt it would take off.

2/5

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Extort, Repress, Confiscate.

Dark Archive

Dorothy Lindman wrote:

Part of it might be a different interpretation of Indiana Jones.

Even if you ignore the straight-up fortune hunter he was in Temple of Doom, he is not lawful by any sense of the word, and his goodness largely depends on whether you're the guy protecting the artifact he's after. His motivation is the pursuit and preservation of history, not the greater good. Remember, when he had to choose between defeating the Nazis and saving his girlfriend or destroying an artifact, he chose the artifact or both the greater good and his own personal good. His mantra is "It belongs in a museum", not "We should use that power to save the world" or "That's too dangerous to fall into the wrong hands." Also, we never get to see who owns the museum Indy works for or what their motivations are.

I use that phrase to describe the society, with the following description: "You have your normal, daily life, and every now and then your boss knocks on your door and says, "We want you to go get an artifact." (I also describe the Dark Archive as the "top men" that are researching the arc.) In that context, it's a valid comparison, and there aren't many other pop culture "part-time adventurers" to use as a grounding point.

With all that said, I do find it refreshing that there are PFS players who want to play the good guys. More often, I hear players complaining that they can't be evil in PFS.

I am on my phone, so I can only wrote a short response, but the owner is the museum is Marcus. You know, "Marcus? No, the man got lost in his own museum once."

Also, Indy returns the sacred stones to the natives. He doesn't keep them for himself.

Silver Crusade 4/5

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"Join the Pathfinder Society. Visit strange and exotic lands. Meet interesting people then kill them."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cylyria wrote:
I suspect a lot of it has to do with the faction you are as well. If I recall correctly, the Chelaxian mission in Slave Pits of Absalom is to "free" the slaves so they can be made into slaves for Cheliax.

I recall one running of that episode where you have Chelaxian players trying to free slaves, and Andorans trying to stop them.

Grand Lodge 5/5

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I THINK THE SOCIETY IS A GENERALLY FINE AND WELL ADJUSTED GROUP OF LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

Silver Crusade 4/5

On a side note, though I've only encountered some, faction missions from seasons 0 to 3 had some questionably evil tasks.

1/5

Koujow wrote:
Dorothy Lindman wrote:

Part of it might be a different interpretation of Indiana Jones.

Even if you ignore the straight-up fortune hunter he was in Temple of Doom, he is not lawful by any sense of the word, and his goodness largely depends on whether you're the guy protecting the artifact he's after. His motivation is the pursuit and preservation of history, not the greater good. Remember, when he had to choose between defeating the Nazis and saving his girlfriend or destroying an artifact, he chose the artifact or both the greater good and his own personal good. His mantra is "It belongs in a museum", not "We should use that power to save the world" or "That's too dangerous to fall into the wrong hands." Also, we never get to see who owns the museum Indy works for or what their motivations are.

I use that phrase to describe the society, with the following description: "You have your normal, daily life, and every now and then your boss knocks on your door and says, "We want you to go get an artifact." (I also describe the Dark Archive as the "top men" that are researching the arc.) In that context, it's a valid comparison, and there aren't many other pop culture "part-time adventurers" to use as a grounding point.

With all that said, I do find it refreshing that there are PFS players who want to play the good guys. More often, I hear players complaining that they can't be evil in PFS.

I am on my phone, so I can only wrote a short response, but the owner is the museum is Marcus. You know, "Marcus? No, the man got lost in his own museum once."

Also, Indy returns the sacred stones to the natives. He doesn't keep them for himself.

Not to get too pedantic but Marcus is the dean of the university. Which is clearly supposed to be the University of Chicago based on various clues. That would make the museum the Oriental Institute or the Field Museum.

Dark Archive *

there was a recent scenario with NPC Eando Kline (can't remember which) that basically called out the Society as being no better than the Aspis. and in Wounded Wisp, one of the NPCs hearkens back to the golden era of the Society, with a distaste for the thuggery of the present Society.

personally, I like the gilded nature of PFS. it lets me role play some questionable characters if I choose, as opposed to always being the good guy.

4/5

Koujow wrote:
Dorothy Lindman wrote:

Part of it might be a different interpretation of Indiana Jones.

Even if you ignore the straight-up fortune hunter he was in Temple of Doom, he is not lawful by any sense of the word, and his goodness largely depends on whether you're the guy protecting the artifact he's after.

I am on my phone, so I can only wrote a short response, but the owner is the museum is Marcus. You know, "Marcus? No, the man got lost in his own museum once."

I assumed he meant "curator" or "director" by that line, not owner. The owner of a large museum would rarely run it on a daily basis.

Koujow wrote:
Also, Indy returns the sacred stones to the natives. He doesn't keep them for himself.

To me, Indy always comes across as the "rogue who does the right thing in the end" archetype rather than a straight-up hero. The director set up the contrast between the diamond in the opening scene and the diamonds that were supposed to be in the stones. But the difference there was a) these stones were actually sacred and b) Indy has a spiritual epiphany during the movie.

Regardless, I would never put Indiana Jones in the same category as, say, the Justice League, or even the Flying Tigers. If the Nazis weren't going after the Arc of the Covenant, Indy wouldn't have started fighting them.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Game Master wrote:
I like Pathfinder Society, because I like being free to not be the good guy. Of course, some of my characters are fiercely good-aligned (and to be honest, I have never seen a single scenario where the group was required to perform evil acts to fulfill it. Criminal acts? Sure. Evil acts? Never). It's wonderful to be able to play whatever non-evil alignment you prefer to be, and in a good-aligned Society, we wouldn't be given that freedom.

I recently played a scenario... (in a spoiler block because it does give away the second success condition, but I won't say it's name (because I don't remember))

Spoiler:

We rescued the mayor's daughter. The mayor's associates had kidnapper her and he probably had a hand in it, too, because she was a political upstart and he was a former noble in a now-democratic region. He had his power because he still owned most of the jobs/business in town. He was manipulating the council and putting other former-nobles in charge. The town was ill-kept, in disarray, and mismanaged. We were specifically told to look for signs of corruption in the briefing. Our choices were to let the daughter be swept under a rug and shipped off somewhere to silence her good intentions regarding politics (keep her kidnapped and out of the picture, so to speak), or let her come to power. We obviously chose to empower the girl and turn the current mayor in for corruption.

Our overall mission was to help the mayor retrieve his daughter (which he didn't want our help because he was corrupt) and then gain funds for soldiers for fighting in the worldwound--again we were also specifically told to look for signs of corruption.

The secondary success condition was to get the specifically get the funds from the mayor--as in let the mayor's somehow-not-evil (probably too few hit dice) cohort ship her off to who know's what fate and to leave the corrupt mayor in power.

Tell me how that's not evil? (also tell me how it's acceptable for the secondary success condition to explicitly negate the briefing)

5/5 5/55/55/5

re spoiler: If you chose to do evil it was your own choice. You could have, as my table did, tell the NPC they've been using too much of their own product and refuse. Yes, you pay a consequence for that but you can do it. Is the complaint that your character can't be a good person or that being a good person comes with some downsides?

I love moral quandaries like that (i just wish the take a third option option hadn't been so random and limited)

Spoiler:
Party: Her word won't hold up in court because she sells drugs

Kangaroo pouch rider: You mean these?

Yes

*opens kangaroo pouch. Starts putting drugs inside* "What drugs?"

Dark Archive 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Cylyria wrote:
I suspect a lot of it has to do with the faction you are as well. If I recall correctly, the Chelaxian mission in Slave Pits of Absalom is to "free" the slaves so they can be made into slaves for Cheliax.

Actually free them. Do so in a territory where Andoran will feel obligated to undertake their upkeep and rehabilitation.

The fact that freeing the slaves has an ulterior benefit to their national policy doesn't mean that freeing the slaves isn't a Good act.

Silver Crusade 1/5

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Actually, the scenario is not that simple, claudekennilol.

Spoiler for The Stolen Heir

Spoiler:

While you are in a dilemma, you do not need to hand the woman over. It is possible (though difficult) to convince the Consul to aid the Society with military help. The daughter explicitly states that while he is a suspect he could help the Society, so it's more a "We let you go if you help us against the DEMONS THREATENING ALL OF GOLARION" and not a "We have to aid the evil guy to help the Society".
This is independant of the mayor being convicted or not.
It's worth mentioning that our paladin vehemently argued against letting the daughter go, reasoning that by letting her live a few years in a very comfortable imprisonment they'd ensure lots of help up in the world wound - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all that.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Koukow wrote:

"But Koujow, you could have chosen to not do those things or stopped the players who did!" You would think, if I wasn't being blocked by the players, if not the GM. Take the 'Protecting the Necromancer' scenario above. According to the GM, this Necromancer bought slaves, murdered them, then reanimates them for the purpose of selling undead slaves. I was playing my Paladin at the time, but I find that horrifying as anyone not a sociopath should. So even though the Necromancer had something the Pathfinder Society wanted, I suggested to the party that we terminate his business. At the very least turn the guy in. The players were generally up for it, until the GM said "Oh, well he has to survive the scenario to fulfill the secondary condition. You need to make sure these other guys don't kill him."

Afterwards, I told the GM that I needed to spend my prestige on an atonement spell because I had obviously done something that opposes both my characters and my beliefs and the GM brushed it off and told me not to worry about it.

To me, the GM giving/telling you the secondary success condition was wrong. Although the party could have still went against you in sparing the Necromancer or turning him in to the authorities, it should be left up to the party playing the scenario, not the GM.

The Exchange 4/5

Live Bait wrote:
Extort, Repress, Confiscate.

Heil Valsin! *twirls moustache*

Liberty's Edge 1/5

claudekennilol wrote:
Game Master wrote:
I like Pathfinder Society, because I like being free to not be the good guy. Of course, some of my characters are fiercely good-aligned (and to be honest, I have never seen a single scenario where the group was required to perform evil acts to fulfill it. Criminal acts? Sure. Evil acts? Never). It's wonderful to be able to play whatever non-evil alignment you prefer to be, and in a good-aligned Society, we wouldn't be given that freedom.

I recently played a scenario... (in a spoiler block because it does give away the second success condition, but I won't say it's name (because I don't remember))

** spoiler omitted **

Tell me how that's not evil? (also tell me how it's acceptable for the...

Spoiler:
There were multiple possibilities to get the secondary success conditions. Yes doing "the right thing" makes completing the secondary success condition harder, but not impossible.
3/5

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claudekennilol wrote:
Tell me how that's not evil?

The Stolen Heir is the scenario you're thinking of and one of my absolute favorites.

Spoiler:
The secondary objective is to get military support, not necessarily from the mayor. You can rescue the girl, send the mayor to jail, and get military support from the Eagle Knight Consul.

This requires you to have knowledge local to realize the Consul can command Eagle Knights into the Worldwound and diplomacy to convince him to do it, so it's easy to miss.

A socially skilled group can get through with no moral conflict, a socially inept group will need to choose between supporting the daughter and completing the secondary objective. Heading back to the lodge and saying "We tried, but we couldn't get military support at a price we were morally prepared to pay" is a perfectly acceptable result.

1/5

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Blackbot wrote:

Actually, the scenario is not that simple, claudekennilol.

Spoiler for The Stolen Heir
** spoiler omitted **

Logged just to say, Great Paladin, not Stupid Legal, there is hope in the PFS if there are some of these around.

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:

re spoiler: If you chose to do evil it was your own choice. You could have, as my table did, tell the NPC they've been using too much of their own product and refuse. Yes, you pay a consequence for that but you can do it. Is the complaint that your character can't be a good person or that being a good person comes with some downsides?

I love moral quandaries like that (i just wish the take a third option option hadn't been so random and limited)

** spoiler omitted **

Yeah, the "sacrifice reward?" quandaries are fairly easy and often emotionally empowering. (throwing one's orders back into the faces of certain faction leaders could be quite gratifying; it seemed to become a thing for Andoran faction members for a while) More problematic are quandaries that leave players regularly scrambling for a way to do the right thing without falling into PvP territory, with them trying to scratch out a creative solution their GM will accept or resigning themselves to playing Captain Well-Meaning-But-Ineffectual.(a role any good PC player is familiar with if they've felt forced to sit at a table with someone that doesn't know how to play evil PCs as a team player)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

One of the older scenarios I ran recently, the players lose gold if they didn't steal the weekly wages from the labor camp they rescued. I was taken back by this. Its one thing if you rescue them and they give you the money. But this was "You save them, snoop around, and run off with the money."


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The Pathfinder Society has Evil competition: the Aspis Consortium.

The Pathfinder Society needs Good competition. Anyone want to start the Andoren Geographic Society?

1/5 **

Laif wrote:
Logged just to say, Great Paladin, not Stupid Legal, there is hope in the PFS if there are some of these around.

And I'd say the exact opposite. "The ends justify the means" is exactly the opposite of what a paladin should believe.

Dark Archive

Aaron Motta wrote:
Laif wrote:
Logged just to say, Great Paladin, not Stupid Legal, there is hope in the PFS if there are some of these around.
And I'd say the exact opposite. "The ends justify the means" is exactly the opposite of what a paladin should believe.

I'd say that depends on the paladin's oaths. Are they sworn to uphold the law? Yes, oath violation. Are they sworn to destroy Demon-kind and try to close the Worldwound? It may be a violation of theirs oaths to not take the offer - while they should prefer a lawful path should it present itself, if not, their primary oath and mission is more important, both personally and spiritually.

Grand Lodge

Aaron Motta wrote:
Laif wrote:
Logged just to say, Great Paladin, not Stupid Legal, there is hope in the PFS if there are some of these around.
And I'd say the exact opposite. "The ends justify the means" is exactly the opposite of what a paladin should believe.

I think this is actually a question with no wrong answer. A Paladin will always do what they see as their moral imperative, but what their ethics require in this situation is up to the player. It is kind of like the railroad tracks dilemma, if you pull the lever the train runs a man over, if you do nothing it runs over five people. Is actively supporting a local, mortal oppressor immoral if it prevents the invasion of a far more destructive alien force? That could be fun to RP. Were I a Pally, I might support the mayor, but show signs of remorse. Flowers on the graves of those I failed kind of thing. I'd probably want to RP a confession between myself and a Cleric of my deity.

Dark Archive

Stolen Heir Spoilers

Spoiler:
At the very least, if you choose the darker option and send the girl with her captives, she gets a 'happy ending'. I don't think it says which one actually happens, but the NPC mentions she might marry a handsome and rich merchant prince or a few other options. It is against her will, but it is a lot better than 'disappearing'. That is, being forced to marry a stranger because you believed in freedom and democracy is a better option...

Also, the scenario makes it clear that supporting the daughter will destabilize the area. Even though (having read the actual scenario), I know that it will not. This scenario actually does have an interesting moral choice.

This might be kind of pushing it, but I don't think that adventures like "Among the Dead" and "The Merchant's Wake" as you being a heroic good guy.

Spoiler:
I picked those two because they were adventures that I have played and remember very well out of some of the ones mentioned above. They are also pretty similar.

In both of these scenarios, you go to a place that is suppose to be calm and quiet. When SUDDENLY ZOMBIES happens and you have to fight to survive. Fighting to not being killed is not heroic, it is basic survival. I made an attempt to help the NPCs and both times, the GM made it very clear that we were unable to assist those NPCs. That was, unless the NPC was named. And what made me rather angry was that (either the GM or scenario) explained in great detail how these people were dying, even though I made it abundantly clear that I wanted to save them. Because I wasn't able (allowed?) to save the nameless background NPCs, I wasn't fighting to save heroic save people. I was just fighting to survive one encounter to the next. That is being a hero.

I'm not saying that if Peter Parker was in a bank when a bunch of criminals show up and start shooting up the place, he is somehow unheroic for stopping them. That is just good luck, right place, right time for Spidey. But if Spidey let the criminals shoot all the hostages except for J. Jonah Jameson because OMG, he has a name, then maybe Spidey really is just a menace.

As for Pathfinder 'Assassination' missions, I can not remember any specific titles off the top of my head, but I have played in a few scenarios that follow this exact formula. "This NPC has a thing. We want that thing. Take care of the NPC through Any. Means. Necessary." In one scenario, the NPC giving us the quest even stated "I don't want to know how, just do what must be done." That is some pretty strong, suggestive language. The NPC might as well make finger on throat hand gestures ("...Why would I want to put my finger on his throat?") when he gives those orders. And sure, sometimes the target is legitimately an evil NPC. But just as often, the NPC is either totally legit or someone the pathfinders have wrong before.

1/5 **

Whenever I'm trying to figure out what (I believe) is the right course of action for a paladin, I just ask WWSD (what would Superman do)?

To imprison an innocent - in a gilded cage or otherwise - is wrong. Even when it is done in the name of the greater good. You know that road to hell? The one that is paved with good intentions? This is it. The ends do not justify the means. A paladin would reject the "railroad track dilemma" as a false dichotomy, and find another way -- or die trying.

Which is a funny argument for me to be making, because I'm often accused of being a moral relativist. :P

The Exchange 5/5

Perhaps it is the company you have been keeping?

I have noticed that several Pathfinder "Lodges"/Teams have tended to dip below the Neutral on the Good/Evil axis.

Other groups ... don't seem to have this problem.

Often it is the players/judge, and not the scenario. Though, sometimes it is the scenario - but I have many times seen (or watched) different groups respond to the same things in entirely different ways....

(For example: two tables of First Steps and the encounter with Auntie Baltwin. One group reports that she should be supplied with aid in the form of assistance to "help her in taking care of the kids as she has for many years" ("Get her an assistant so she can have time off to visit AA") - the next group kills her, loots the orphanage and the judge passes it off as Good "'cause she was working the children as slaves".)

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5

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One look at me you'd not think me a religious man. I've lied, cheated, stolen, and stuck my share of blades in people's backs. But Sarenrae teaches us of redemption. If she's willing to see the good in a sorry sod like myself, then who am I to turn down that opportunity. I'll tell you now that this paladinhood isn't an easy road. I've strayed from the path a few times, and often its easy to lose myself in the old ways. Like this time we were quelling a plague in the Andoran lowlands.

We came upon some cultists that were spreading the plague, only they dressed themselves real nice, like a couple of flower merchants. They were amateur con artists at best, and I saw through their second-rate disguises immediately. My allies though, they were too naive. So rather than lose my advantage over these traitorous plague-spreaders and reveal their identities, I attacked the cultists first--firing a crossbow bolt into their leader's throat while he offered me a flower. I knew Sarenrae would not approve, but I also knew these villains needed to be stopped, no matter the cost to my soul. After our work was done in those foul woods I sought out absolution and found it in forgiving embrace of the Dawnflower once more. It was a price I gladly paid, and would do so again.

Being the sword of your deity is tricky business and at times it can be restrictive, like a blade stowed in a sheath. But when you are drawn forth as an instrument of holy punishment, there is no purer task I would wish to perform.

4/5

Koujow wrote:

Among the Dead:

I made an attempt to help the NPCs and both times, the GM made it very clear that we were unable to assist those NPCs. That was, unless the NPC was named. And what made me rather angry was that (either the GM or scenario) explained in great detail how these people were dying, even though I made it abundantly clear that I wanted to save them. Because I wasn't able (allowed?) to save the nameless background NPCs, I wasn't fighting to save heroic save people. I was just fighting to survive one encounter to the next.

That might be table variation--I don't remember that restriction in that scenario. Also, if the GM is not allowing you do save people, it seems kind of mean to play up how much the people are suffering.

If you want to be the hero, there are a lot of scenarios where the PCs are supposed to be heroic. You can probably figure out the basic gist of the scenario from the blurb, and then just request your local GMs to run those that look like you can play the good guys.


Surely there are no campaigns in the works to play this up, is there?

A shameless plug-in to be sure, but still! :)

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